Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
683
375
The sooner everyone comes to grips with the fact that States have the absolute right to change, get rid of point systems and/or limit the number of tags available to NR's the better.

Life isn't fair...never has been, never will be.

If hunting moose or sheep is a priority, save and make it happen. There was NO way I was going to not have at least 1 bighorn sheep, 1 thinhorn sheep, moose and goat before the dirtnap.

Whether that meant drawing or outright buying hunts, I wanted it bad enough, I made it happen.

Relying on state tag allocations to remain constant or for point systems to never change, is a fools errand. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

Old saying I live by...you can watch things happen, you can make things happen, or you can wonder what the %$%# happened. I choose to make things happen.
 

jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
210
80
Not a done deal! There’s still the chance 90/10 for the big 5 will die in the legislature! Maybe the outfitters have something up their sleeves that they haven’t mentioned in task force meeting.

Another example, If they link it directly to 90/10 for deer/elk/antelope like they’ve done the past few years the entire thing could easily die. It’s all in the wording and what is included.

How many years have we heard Buzz say it’s a done deal? To say it’s a done deal is a lie!
 
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D_Dubya

Active Member
Aug 8, 2012
325
622
South Texas
Not a done deal! There’s still the chance 90/10 for the big 5 will die in the legislature! Maybe the outfitters have something up their sleeves that they haven’t mentioned in task force meeting.

Another example, If they link it directly to 90/10 for deer/elk/antelope like they’ve done the past few years the entire thing could easily die. It’s all in the wording and what is included.

How many years have we heard Buzz say it’s a done deal? To say it’s a done deal is a lie!
Probably a 90/10 chance it will pass
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
683
375
The thing that I would like to know is just how much of a tenth of one percent that it will increase resident odds.
Not about drawing odds...is bout 90-116 more residents hunting moose, sheep, goat and bison a year.

In the next 10 years that means 900-1160 more residents get to hunt OIL animals, and that is the reason for the change.

It makes only one thing, and that's sense.
 
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jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
210
80
Don't kid yourself Buzz, It's totally about draw odds for D/E/A. I'm sure you would be the first to agree that researching and understanding draw odds and stats are the life blood of drawing great limited tags. You are absolutely correct that there are a very few % of tags that will be issued to Wyo res but 90/10 will do almost nothing to improve Wyo residents odds of drawing those few tags. On the outside it sounds great but if I'm a Wyo res that wants to draw high demand tags 90/10 does virtually 0 and my odds will get worse as more nonres move to Wyo.

Wyo residents are sick and tired of waiting to draw high demand tags. They already harvest multiple big game animals to fill their freezers each year and it's the tough tags they are mostly interested in a change. The question is will 90/10 do anything to improve their odds of drawing high demand limited tags. The Task Force has spread sheets in front of them that show how many additional tags/unit will be picked up by Wyo res and what this does to improve their draw odds. I've shared several of my spread sheets and across the board 90/10 improves draw odds for the highly desired tags by 0 to 3%. Obviously this is a drop in the bucket.

The Task Force also has in front of them spread sheets with draw odds to compare 90/10 vs waiting periods for 1 to 5 years. It's super easy for them to see the difference in draw odds. If I was a Wyo res I would want to see these numbers....they are that awesome! The thing in Wyo's favor with a waiting period over other states is that the Wyo res population is SO low. The turn over time of high demand tags vs applicants is high.

What it comes down to is if you are a Wyo resident do you want SIGNIFICANTLY better draw odds with a waiting period or are you happy with a 0 to 5% better chance of drawing a high demand limited tag with 90/10. You will likely continue to sit and wait for these tags with 90/10.

I certainly wish the Task Force could show Wyo res these spread sheets so they could visually see the differences....believe me, it's dramatic. If it were me and I was a Wyo res I would either figure out how to get these or possibly make a chart similar to mine that shows the draw odds comparing 90/10 vs waiting periods in my favorite units.

So if you are a Wyo res and a neighbor continues to draw limited tags while you sit at home you may want to consider a change. I can guarantee 90/10 won't improve your opportunity to draw high demand tags. You may get lucky but the odds are against you!
 
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mallardsx2

Veteran member
Jul 8, 2015
2,895
1,687
^^ I think I said this 2 weeks ago.

I didn't bother to do the math, because, well, to a reasonable person, it is freaking obvious.....

Its all about limiting non-residents. Thats what this is all about. Its about the "great wall of Wyoming" that some people are trying to build.

Like I said a million times before. Just wait, the infighting will begin shortly. lol
 

Hilltop

Veteran member
Feb 25, 2014
3,434
1,340
Eastern Nebraska
Don't kid yourself Buzz, It's totally about draw odds for D/E/A. I'm sure you would be the first to agree that researching and understanding draw odds and stats are the life blood of drawing great limited tags. You are absolutely correct that there are a very few % of tags that will be issued to Wyo res but 90/10 will do almost nothing to improve Wyo residents odds of drawing those few tags. On the outside it sounds great but if I'm a Wyo res that wants to draw high demand tags 90/10 does virtually 0 and my odds will get worse as more nonres move to Wyo.

Wyo residents are sick and tired of waiting to draw high demand tags. They already harvest multiple big game animals to fill their freezers each year and it's the tough tags they are mostly interested in a change. The question is will 90/10 do anything to improve their odds of drawing high demand limited tags. The Task Force has spread sheets in front of them that show how many additional tags/unit will be picked up by Wyo res and what this does to improve their draw odds. I've shared several of my spread sheets and across the board 90/10 improves draw odds for the highly desired tags by 0 to 3%. Obviously this is a drop in the bucket.

The Task Force also has in front of them spread sheets with draw odds to compare 90/10 vs waiting periods for 1 to 5 years. It's super easy for them to see the difference in draw odds. If I was a Wyo res I would want to see these numbers....they are that awesome! The thing in Wyo's favor with a waiting period over other states is that the Wyo res population is SO low. The turn over time of high demand tags vs applicants is high.

What it comes down to is if you are a Wyo resident do you want SIGNIFICANTLY better draw odds with a waiting period or are you happy with a 0 to 5% better chance of drawing a high demand limited tag with 90/10. You will likely continue to sit and wait for these tags with 90/10.

I certainly wish the Task Force could show Wyo res these spread sheets so they could visually see the differences....believe me, it's dramatic. If it were me and I was a Wyo res I would either figure out how to get these or possibly make a chart similar to mine that shows the draw odds comparing 90/10 vs waiting periods in my favorite units.

So if you are a Wyo res and a neighbor continues to draw limited tags while you sit at home you may want to consider a change. I can guarantee 90/10 won't improve your opportunity to draw high demand tags. You may get lucky but the odds are against you!
Jim, the residents I know are 100% against a waiting period. I think your math is good but the reality is the majority of the population prefers a simple random draw with no points, and no waiting period. A good portion of the state is against even having PP for the big 5. From a resident perspective the only negative the people I know are considering is the added pressure to general areas. That won't be enough to sway the vote but it will likely lead to regionalized general tags at some point in the future to spread out the pressure.

We all know 90/10 is likely to happen. My only hope is that they find a way to address those who have invested for years.

I think several above are also correct in the this is a feel good measure that won't accomplish what everyone really wants. The real answer to more opportunity is more animals. The declining populations need to be the real priority at all levels.
 

dan maule

Very Active Member
Jan 3, 2015
756
767
Upper Michigan
Jim, the residents I know are 100% against a waiting period. I think your math is good but the reality is the majority of the population prefers a simple random draw with no points, and no waiting period. A good portion of the state is against even having PP for the big 5. From a resident perspective the only negative the people I know are considering is the added pressure to general areas. That won't be enough to sway the vote but it will likely lead to regionalized general tags at some point in the future to spread out the pressure.

We all know 90/10 is likely to happen. My only hope is that they find a way to address those who have invested for years.

I think several above are also correct in the this is a feel good measure that won't accomplish what everyone really wants. The real answer to more opportunity is more animals. The declining populations need to be the real priority at all levels.
If there ends up being overcrowding on certain general units the state can convert them to LQ units. Is there anything in the states statutes that says they have to maintain a specific number of general units? As interest increases from both residents and nonresidents, I am wondering if there is a point in the not to distant future where all of the units become LQ.
 

Hilltop

Veteran member
Feb 25, 2014
3,434
1,340
Eastern Nebraska
If there ends up being overcrowding on certain general units the state can convert them to LQ units. Is there anything in the states statutes that says they have to maintain a specific number of general units? As interest increases from both residents and nonresidents, I am wondering if there is a point in the not to distant future where all of the units become LQ.
Good question- I'm not aware of any. The problem with converting to more LQ areas is maintaining the 7250 non-resident elk tags under 90-10. The more LQ areas that are created, the more crowding you will see in the general units left.

I think it will be more likely they change to regions, just like they do mule deer. Their system is already in place so it would be an easy, and effective, transition. In essence, they would be creating very large LQ areas for non-resident general tag holders. The draw odds would be different for each- eliminating the true general tags.

I know choose your weapon has also been discussed as a means of spreading out pressure. That has some resident backing as well.
 
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Rich M

Active Member
Oct 16, 2012
391
171
The sooner everyone comes to grips with the fact that States have the absolute right to change, get rid of point systems and/or limit the number of tags available to NR's the better.

Life isn't fair...never has been, never will be.
You gloat over someone's loss of 20+ years of sacrifice and waiting while following the state rules and guidelines.

That's a long time to wait to get told - tough noogies - suck it up - pfffff!. LOL!

Now for a real question - what is the state willing to do with the points that these guys have accumulated? Will they be transferrable to other species? Or just "poof" say buh-bye to $1,000+ of investments?
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
683
375
Don't kid yourself Buzz, It's totally about draw odds for D/E/A. I'm sure you would be the first to agree that researching and understanding draw odds and stats are the life blood of drawing great limited tags. You are absolutely correct that there are a very few % of tags that will be issued to Wyo res but 90/10 will do almost nothing to improve Wyo residents odds of drawing those few tags. On the outside it sounds great but if I'm a Wyo res that wants to draw high demand tags 90/10 does virtually 0 and my odds will get worse as more nonres move to Wyo.

Wyo residents are sick and tired of waiting to draw high demand tags. They already harvest multiple big game animals to fill their freezers each year and it's the tough tags they are mostly interested in a change. The question is will 90/10 do anything to improve their odds of drawing high demand limited tags. The Task Force has spread sheets in front of them that show how many additional tags/unit will be picked up by Wyo res and what this does to improve their draw odds. I've shared several of my spread sheets and across the board 90/10 improves draw odds for the highly desired tags by 0 to 3%. Obviously this is a drop in the bucket.

The Task Force also has in front of them spread sheets with draw odds to compare 90/10 vs waiting periods for 1 to 5 years. It's super easy for them to see the difference in draw odds. If I was a Wyo res I would want to see these numbers....they are that awesome! The thing in Wyo's favor with a waiting period over other states is that the Wyo res population is SO low. The turn over time of high demand tags vs applicants is high.

What it comes down to is if you are a Wyo resident do you want SIGNIFICANTLY better draw odds with a waiting period or are you happy with a 0 to 5% better chance of drawing a high demand limited tag with 90/10. You will likely continue to sit and wait for these tags with 90/10.

I certainly wish the Task Force could show Wyo res these spread sheets so they could visually see the differences....believe me, it's dramatic. If it were me and I was a Wyo res I would either figure out how to get these or possibly make a chart similar to mine that shows the draw odds comparing 90/10 vs waiting periods in my favorite units.

So if you are a Wyo res and a neighbor continues to draw limited tags while you sit at home you may want to consider a change. I can guarantee 90/10 won't improve your opportunity to draw high demand tags. You may get lucky but the odds are against you!
First off, you aren't a resident and the task force and Wyoming Residents don't care what you think. Nobody is asking you

I'm not like you Sebastian, I don't troll internet boards looking to party app with strangers to draw another tag. I'm happy when other Residents draw tags, they deserve them, they live in Wyoming.

I don't care about my odds of drawing a tag, I've drawn so many tags it really doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I kill better animals on general tags than most kill with the best tags in the State.

What matters to me is 1000's more of my Resident friends, neighbors, etc. get to hunt the State they live in. That is exactly what 90-10 will do. That's exactly why its being pushed by Residents.

You need to forget odds and realize that its about several thousand more Residents each year getting to hunt the tags and areas they draw, no matter who the lucky Residents are that draw them.
 
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BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
683
375
You gloat over someone's loss of 20+ years of sacrifice and waiting while following the state rules and guidelines.

That's a long time to wait to get told - tough noogies - suck it up - pfffff!. LOL!

Now for a real question - what is the state willing to do with the points that these guys have accumulated? Will they be transferrable to other species? Or just "poof" say buh-bye to $1,000+ of investments?
Not sure yet, but likely be turned into bonus points...re-read my post where Scott asked the same question.

Also, lets not forget someone with 20+ points is CHOOSING not to hunt moose and sheep.

When I had the points to draw I didn't jack around trying to over-think it and play the "what if" game, I drew tags in what most consider mediocre areas and then "made things happen", rather than wonder "what the $%## happened" when things changed.

Points are for burning, not waiting for the perfect year, better area, etc.



Another look, my Dad checking out my WY bull:



Same with my sheep area, not the best area in the State, but I made the most of the 26 days I chased rams in that unit.



 
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jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
210
80
Buzz, another 2 or 3 more internet pats on your back for the great sheep and moose pics. Your the man!!!

The Task Force is searching for great options that make sense and will work long term. I'm sure they are going through and tossing out all the nonres ideas....not!

Anyone that applies for high demand tags knows that it's wise to research draw odds. Buzz, you saying you don't care about draw odds is ridiculous. Who doesn't research draw odds before applying? A lot of guys pay over $100/year just for draw odds and recommendations from application services.

Hilltop I've gotten the same feedback from several resident buddies. It really shocks me how little they actually know about pref/bonus pt/waiting periods/draw odds. It's fairly evident that 90/10 is not going to do what Wyo res want but it sure sounds like a great plan offering res more tags. They believe....more tags...I'll have better draw odds. That's a far, far cry from the truth! Where's that dead horse I've been beating!

I've looked the draw odds over up=side-down/and backwards. I can pretty much guarantee Wyo res are going to be dissatisfied with 90/10 for D/E/A. It's not even a short term solution to Wyo res problem. Wyo's population will continue to grow with more res vying for high demand tags. Hopefully the Task Force is wise and compares different draw systems vs 90/10. If not....I will be the first to tell you I told you so when a couple years down the road another Task Force arises looking for a solution to Wyo res not drawing high demand tags!
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
683
375
Hilltop I've gotten the same feedback from several resident buddies. It really shocks me how little they actually know about pref/bonus pt/waiting periods/draw odds. It's fairly evident that 90/10 is not going to do what Wyo res want but it sure sounds like a great plan offering res more tags. They believe....more tags...I'll have better draw odds.

I've looked the draw odds over up=side-down/and backwards. I can pretty much guarantee Wyo res are going to be dissatisfied with 90/10 for D/E/A. It's not even a short term solution to Wyo res problem. Wyo's population will continue to grow with more res vying for high demand tags. Hopefully the Task Force is wise and compares different draw systems vs 90/10. If not....I will be the first to tell you I told you so when a couple years down the road another Task Force arises looking for a solution to Wyo res not drawing high demand tags!
Just curious if they're now giving pot away in Colorado?

Ask any Resident if they want more tags given to them or less.

Even a third grader knows the answer.

Explain how more tags given to Residents decreases their odds, that's math that even Carl Gauss couldn't calculate.

Your posts are embarrassing...I'm actually embarrassed for you Sebastian.

One other question, if you're so sure that more hunters are going to move to Wyoming, why would you ever believe that tag allocations are going to stay the same? The only way to meet more Resident demand is to give a higher percentage of tags to Residents. The more people that move to Wyoming and become Residents, the sooner 90-10 (or even 95-5) is going to happen.
 
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Rich M

Active Member
Oct 16, 2012
391
171
Not sure yet, but likely be turned into bonus points...re-read my post where Scott asked the same question.

Also, lets not forget someone with 20+ points is CHOOSING not to hunt moose and sheep.

When I had the points to draw I didn't jack around trying to over-think it and play the "what if" game, I drew tags in what most consider mediocre areas and then "made things happen", rather than wonder "what the $%## happened" when things changed.

Points are for burning, not waiting for the perfect year, better area, etc.
You make a good point - I'm not in the game. Saw my first bighorn rams in 2019 CO and they are something.

So, a NR with 20 points is holding out for the best areas only and not just 1 of say 12-15-20 permits they give NR annually? Guess just showing my ignorance about the subject.

If that's true, we turn and ask the guys who are "close" and gonna get screwed by this, if they would have hunted a lesser area if they had known the system was gonna implode. Or if they could get the lesser tag now, would they?