Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!

mallardsx2

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Jul 8, 2015
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Without some form of waiting period for tags, even if residents had 100% of the tags, you still will never have your belly's satisfied.

Truthfully, I cant wait until you residents who are pushing your BS agendas cut out all of the NR tags and turn on each other like rabid dogs and stop attacking/blaming/crying about non-residents who are the only ones that bring significant financial value to your hunting/fishing economy. When you cut out all of the NR's, RESEDENTS will pay dearly to feed the monster that has been created.

Bottom line is that nothing will ever satisfy a guy like you or any of the other monkeys on the "task force" until you all draw your LQ high end tags for Antelope, Deer and Elk every year. And guess what pal, that aint ever gonna happen.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
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Without some form of waiting period for tags, even if residents had 100% of the tags, you still will never have your belly's satisfied.

Truthfully, I cant wait until you residents who are pushing your BS agendas cut out all of the NR tags and turn on each other like rabid dogs and stop attacking/blaming/crying about non-residents who are the only ones that bring significant financial value to your hunting/fishing economy. When you cut out all of the NR's, RESEDENTS will pay dearly to feed the monster that has been created.

Bottom line is that nothing will ever satisfy a guy like you or any of the other monkeys on the "task force" until you all draw your LQ high end tags for Antelope, Deer and Elk every year. And guess what pal, that aint ever gonna happen.
Nobody ever claimed that 90-10 means drawing the best tags every year...only a whole lot more of them going to the people that live, work, and build their lives here.

What it will absolutely do is give several thousand Wyoming residents the opportunity to hunt more LQ areas with their families and friends...that's what its all about.

It will also allow R's to have almost guaranteed odds in some of the great units that fly under the radar, give R's better odds of picking up better second and third choice tags as well.

Finally, our general deer and elk tags are the BEST found anywhere in the United States, the envy of the West. Buying those OTC for Residents if we aren't successful in the initial or leftover draws is akin to winning a silver medal. Not gold, but nothing to complain about either...from what I hear anyway...



 
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ScottR

Eastmans' Staff / Moderator
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I have submitted my comments to the Task Force. Please consider joining me in calling for a conversion to the Bonus Point system.
What is your draw to a bonus point system? Brandon and I have very different feelings on them based on our experiences. He is from ND and likes them a lot based on their system, I have had to learn Nevada in a big way and can’t say that I see a big enough benefit to them to be worth it.
 
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jimss

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Jun 10, 2012
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Wyo res biggest complaint is they can't draw high demand limited tags! Some res may not like the idea of a waiting period because they wouldn't be able to draw limited in units that have great draw odds every year and they would have to sit out several years once they draw liminted tags.

One solution to this would be to have a waiting period for "premium limited units" for deer, elk, and antelope that are the toughest tags in Wyo to draw. A baseline of 10 or 20% draw odds could be set and all units that are tougher than that to draw would have waiting periods.

Wyo res would then still have the opportunity to apply for tougher draw "premium units" with waiting periods or they could select regular units that wouldn't have waiting periods in place.

A waiting period for "premium units" would provide residents WAY better draw odds than the few tags/unit with 90/10. I can pretty much guarantee that "Premium high demand units" are going to become tougher and tougher to draw as more nonres move to Wyo! This may be a simple solution without going to a pref/bonus pt system or robbing nonres of 1/2 of their limited tag opportunity.

Plain and simple 90/10 only SLIGHTLY increases a Wyo res chance of drawing deer, elk, and antelope tags, cuts nonres opportunity in 1/2, and is a horrible idea for outfitters and WG&F revenue!
 
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jimss

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Jun 10, 2012
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Buzz how many tags did you say you drew this year? My guess is between 8 and 12? All the photos you share on this and every other website each year are proof that Wyo res aren't lacking in "OPPORTUNITY" to draw many tags each year and harvest a gob of big game each and every year! Why rob 1/2 the available limited tags from nonres that provide the greatest revenue to the WG&F? Oh by the way, nice 3 pt buck!
 
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highplainsdrifter

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May 4, 2011
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What is your draw to a bonus point system? Brandon and I have very different feelings on them based on our experiences. He is from ND and likes them a lot based on their system, I have had to learn Nevada in a big way and can’t say that I see a big enough benefit to them to be worth it.
I also grew up in North Dakota:)

I would rather not have a bonus point system or a preference point system. Either system puts newcomers too far behind everyone else. But the preference point system is especially notorious for discriminating against anyone who didn't get in on the ground floor.

If we switch to a 90/10 allocation in Wyoming and keep the current preference point system, many will never draw a tag...even though they invested years thinking they would eventually draw. Switching to the bonus point system would give those people a chance. It would also give newcomers a chance.

I'm not saying the bonus point system is great. I'm saying it might be a way out of the mess created by the current preference point system which is widely disliked.

Buzz also had a good idea...increase the percentage of tags in the random draw.

Something needs to be done so long-time preference point holders still have a chance if we go to a 90/10 allocation. To do nothing is not fair to those people.
 

Hilltop

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Feb 25, 2014
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I feel the same. A bonus point system isn't great but it would be a whole lot better than 90/10 with the current PP system. Going to this would also likely keep up PP revenue for the state. I would still rather they offer to allow transfer of big 5 points to another species. At this point, I would rather switch mine to elk and focus north of the border for moose.
 
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JimP

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Since we are talking bonus points lets look at Utah's system for their limited entry and once in a lifetime animals.

It is a hybrid bonus point system in that 50% of the tags go into a draw for the high point holders and 50% of the tags go to all the rest. This happens when there are 2 or more tags available in the draw for the hunt. This way it is possible to draw a LE or OIL tag with 0 points, and it happens every year. There are also years when there are more applicants in the top point draw than there are tags so those who don't draw get another point and move on to the next year. This happened to me. My LE muzzle loader deer tag should of only taken 14 points. That year there were more applicants than tags and I didn't draw. So the following year when I put in I had 15 points and drew my tag.

Utah also has waiting periods for their LE hunts. Right now it is 5 years for both deer and elk, at least I am pretty sure it is 5 years for deer. They just changed it a couple of years ago from 2 years. But even with a 5 year wait there is a possibility of someone drawing tags after the waiting period before someone with a bunch of points. I saw this happen when a relative drew 2 LE elk tags before his father in law even drew 1 for the same hunt. Sometimes you just have to be lucky.

But right now there are rumors that some want a LE elk hunt to move to the OIL type of a hunt category. This will not eliminate point creep but it will move more hunters through the LE elk hunt draws. There are also others who want to do completely away with the point system and just go to a random draw for all hunts.

But when you come down to it you are never going to make everyone happy.
 

jimss

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Jun 10, 2012
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Wyo res want a better chance to draw high demand premium limited tags. This definitely WON'T happen with 90/10! Elk units like 100, 16, 30, and 31 elk draw odds will basically stay the same with 90/10. Draw odds for deer units like 128, 30, 31, 87, 89, and 90 will also basically stay the same. Antelope units like 58, 60 , 61, 64 draw odds will barely improve with 90/10.

Although bonus systems have definite advantages, a lot of Wyo res don't seem to want anything to do with them. The same neighbor that draws 2 or 3 limited tags with the present system could still draw 2 or 3 tags with some of the bonus pt systems.

Waiting periods obviously require those that draw tags to sit out of applying for those particular tags. Draw odds for Wyo residents would greatly improve with waiting periods vs 90/10... Waiting periods could easily be limited to only premium units that are super difficult to draw. As and example, those units that have 15% or less draw odds will be converted to premium units with waiting periods. Wyo res draw odds are already incredible in most antelope units. The select few premium units that have horrible res draw odds could be changed to a waiting period and those tags would suddenly be within the grasp of drawing in only a few years time. The remainder of the regular antelope units could be drawn and hunted every year.

With 90/10 forget it....the draw odds will get worse and worse as more hunters move to Wyoming in the coming years.

Res would have the opportunity to either apply for premium units with waiting periods or regular units without waiting periods.....plus would have the option to hunt general elk or deer if they don't draw a limited tag. Even with premium unit waiting periods they could still apply each year after they draw a premium tag for regular units or buy general tags. There are a lot of options that likely haven't even been discussed by the Task Force that benefit Wyo residents.

For the few premium demand tags that Wyo res are complaining about....90/10 WON"T improve their draw odds. 90/10 won't do anything...0....nothing to improve res draw odds for these units! Wyo res currently have incredible draw odds and plenty of opportunity to draw as many big game tags as their freezer will hold! As a prime example, Buzz has 8 to up to 12 big game tags in his pocket this year!

If Wyo res want a better chance to draw premium tags a waiting period would be a great solution. There are so many negatives with 90/10......ask the outfitters and nonres hunters that support 77% of the WG&F license sale revenues! What it boils down to is that there are so few tags that would be stripped from 1/2 the nonres with 90/10 that draw odds won't improve for Wyo residents....especially in the long run of things!
 
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mosquito

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Nov 1, 2012
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I also grew up in North Dakota:)

I would rather not have a bonus point system or a preference point system. Either system puts newcomers too far behind everyone else. But the preference point system is especially notorious for discriminating against anyone who didn't get in on the ground floor.

If we switch to a 90/10 allocation in Wyoming and keep the current preference point system, many will never draw a tag...even though they invested years thinking they would eventually draw. Switching to the bonus point system would give those people a chance. It would also give newcomers a chance.

I'm not saying the bonus point system is great. I'm saying it might be a way out of the mess created by the current preference point system which is widely disliked.

Buzz also had a good idea...increase the percentage of tags in the random draw.

Something needs to be done so long-time preference point holders still have a chance if we go to a 90/10 allocation. To do nothing is not fair to those people.
I agree with you 100% . If the laws and allocation are not fair to Wyoming residents then by all means change them . Sportsmen and the hunting community needs to stick together and it needs to be done as fairly as possible. Yes there are some negatives to the bonus point system but to just tell people that have vested years of time and lots of money , ya tough..... is just not right.
 

mosquito

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Nov 1, 2012
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NE ohio
Read S. 339...

Land ownership and wildlife ownership are mutually exclusive...

You're free to use federal land the same as everyone else.

A State's wildlife...you're not. States reserve the right to manage wildlife as they see fit for the benefit of that State's residents. That includes being able to not allow ANY NR's access to that game. Yes, it happens, ND moose is a great example...no NR tags issued.

Great video buzz.
My only argument would be when people have spent years buying points and waiting there turn for their turn for a chance at one of these tags how morally can you just say though s#!t ! Sorry about your luck ?
The law is the law but wrong is still wrong . Maybe we'll just agree to disagree.
 

nv-hunter

Veteran member
Feb 28, 2011
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90/10 or 60/40 I don't care, do what the wy residents feel is the best system. I do think that if it is a set split do separate draws for each res and non res based on that split and numbers of tags. Its the reason I don't apply in some states. Also landowner tags in any state should be for deeded land only not a unit wide tag. I much prefer a bonus point system as it gives everyone a chance at drawing. Waiting periods are good and bad just depends on how they are set up.

One thing to watch out for is the state making up lost $ by doing more raffle hunts and selling auction tags . Seems like some states have as many tags those ways as they put in the draws.

I don't think there is a perfect state when it comes to all these issues but if you could build one from scratch I think it would be NV bonus point, Id once in life for trophy hunts and app split deer/elk or trophy, a pick one weapon on your application type system, some type of high demand tag system and waiting periods. separate draws for res and nonres , also rotating hunt dates in some areas to allow other types of weapons to hunt during rut or premium times.

Just my 2 cents. I have a few antelope points but have never applied in wy so I can't say I really have any skin in the game.
 

BuzzH

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Apr 15, 2015
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Wyo res want a better chance to draw high demand premium limited tags. This definitely WON'T happen with 90/10! Elk units like 100, 16, 30, and 31 elk draw odds will basically stay the same with 90/10. Draw odds for deer units like 128, 30, 31, 87, 89, and 90 will also basically stay the same. Antelope units like 58, 60 , 61, 64 draw odds will barely improve with 90/10.

Although bonus systems have definite advantages, a lot of Wyo res don't seem to want anything to do with them. The same neighbor that draws 2 or 3 limited tags with the present system could still draw 2 or 3 tags with some of the bonus pt systems.

Waiting periods obviously require those that draw tags to sit out of applying for those particular tags. Draw odds for Wyo residents would greatly improve with waiting periods vs 90/10... Waiting periods could easily be limited to only premium units that are super difficult to draw. As and example, those units that have 15% or less draw odds will be converted to premium units with waiting periods. Wyo res draw odds are already incredible in most antelope units. The select few premium units that have horrible res draw odds could be changed to a waiting period and those tags would suddenly be within the grasp of drawing in only a few years time. The remainder of the regular antelope units could be drawn and hunted every year.

With 90/10 forget it....the draw odds will get worse and worse as more hunters move to Wyoming in the coming years.

Res would have the opportunity to either apply for premium units with waiting periods or regular units without waiting periods.....plus would have the option to hunt general elk or deer if they don't draw a limited tag. Even with premium unit waiting periods they could still apply each year after they draw a premium tag for regular units or buy general tags. There are a lot of options that likely haven't even been discussed by the Task Force that benefit Wyo residents.

For the few premium demand tags that Wyo res are complaining about....90/10 WON"T improve their draw odds. 90/10 won't do anything...0....nothing to improve res draw odds for these units! Wyo res currently have incredible draw odds and plenty of opportunity to draw as many big game tags as their freezer will hold! As a prime example, Buzz has 8 to up to 12 big game tags in his pocket this year!

If Wyo res want a better chance to draw premium tags a waiting period would be a great solution. There are so many negatives with 90/10......ask the outfitters and nonres hunters that support 77% of the WG&F license sale revenues! What it boils down to is that there are so few tags that would be stripped from 1/2 the nonres with 90/10 that draw odds won't improve for Wyo residents....especially in the long run of things!
Get over it Sebastian...nobody wants waiting periods, the only way to increase the number of tags that are allocated to Residents is to give them a higher percentage.

You can BS the fans, but not the players and the task force is well aware of what increases Resident opportunity...more tags, period.

If you're such a fan of better odds, where's your support for 5, 6, 7-10 year waiting periods for NR's who draw LQ elk, deer, and pronghorn tags?

That's not you...your MO is to sucker people out of their bonus points, promise them the world, then kick them to the curb once you have that tag in your hand. You've been exposed on every hunting board you frequent...

BTW, turned anyone in lately for illegal outfitting?

Hacked anyone's draw results to find out where they draw tags?

Unbelievable "ethics"...
 
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BuzzH

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Apr 15, 2015
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Great video buzz.
My only argument would be when people have spent years buying points and waiting there turn for their turn for a chance at one of these tags how morally can you just say though s#!t ! Sorry about your luck ?
The law is the law but wrong is still wrong . Maybe we'll just agree to disagree.
That was discussed today, the lawyers in the room explained it this way: Its not a "taking" of anything, you bought your points, still have your points...you were never promised a tag.

Also, Pat Crank brought up the S.339 rider that was attached to a spending bill in 2005 to help ease concerns over litigation on what you're getting at. As he said, and I already explained here, that rider is extremely powerful in giving states the right to allocate license's, charge different fees between R and NR, etc. when it comes to wildlife.
 
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dan maule

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Jan 3, 2015
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That was discussed today, the lawyers in the room explained it this way: Its not a "taking" of anything, you bought your points, still have your points...you were never promised a tag.

Also, Pat Crank brought up the S.339 rider that was attached to a spending bill in 2005 to help ease concerns over litigation on what you're getting at. As he said, and I already explained here, that rider is extremely powerful in giving states the right to allocate license's, charge different fees between R and NR, etc. when it comes to wildlife.
I don’t think anyone is questioning the legality of these changes or if the state has the right to do it.
 
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BuzzH

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I don’t think anyone is questioning the legality of these changes or if the state has the right to do it.
Just reporting on what happened and what was discussed.

Feel free to scroll by any information you don't find of value.
 

BuzzH

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Apr 15, 2015
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I don’t think we argue with what Wyoming residents want & deserve. It’s your attitude & arrogance most don’t like. You really don’t represent the good people of Wyoming.
Opinions vary and the facts remain what they are.

I'll continue to report them.

Thanks for your concern.
 

mallardsx2

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Jul 8, 2015
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nobody wants waiting periods, the only way to increase the number of tags that are allocated to Residents is to give them a higher percentage.

the task force is well aware of what increases Resident opportunity...more tags, period.

If you're such a fan of better odds, where's your support for 5, 6, 7-10 year waiting periods for NR's who draw LQ elk, deer, and pronghorn tags?
To your first point-
You honestly dont think that "more people" would draw tags if there was a waiting period? This would provide more opportunity for a wider range of residents. Which in theory should make more people happy. But, if that isn't what the "task force" is after then this is nothing more than a tag grab of greed. Is the task force even trying to make the majority of residents happy? Or are they just after the NR tags?
Even if they went to 90/10 the same people could potentially be randomly drawing that tag several times in a row while others will STILL sit on the sidelines..crying that they still haven't drawn a tag...so whats the point? Its really the simple case of "it is never enough" going on here.
It is of my opinion that residents need to fix their side of the draw and not mess with the minuscule amount of non-residents tags. Think about it, a waiting period would completely eliminate that person from being in the random draw for a period of 5 years (or whatever was chosen 3-5-7?).....seems pretty substantial to me. Of course it would severely affect guys your age so I understand why you are not for it, because it doesn't specifically benefit you. However, the people who have been "trying to draw a LQ unit for 30 years" would have a substantial increase in odds of drawing that tag under those waiting period terms. More so than adding a few more of the NR's tags to the pot or for that matter all of them. It seems like residents are just upset that other residents are drawing LQ tags more often than others and they feel that adding more tags to the pot is going to make up the difference. Well, I hate to break it to them but its still a lottery and they are likely to be disappointing still...unless they can limit the amount of people getting into that lottery.....thats the ONLY way they will significantly increase their draw odds.

To your second point- Everyone here understands this. We all get it, if residents want more tags they need to get more tags from somewhere else. BUT, if what the residents truly want better odds on high end LQ tags they need to be pushing waiting periods for DEA and lengthen the waiting periods for sheep and moose or turn them into OIL tags. I didnt crunch the numbers but this has to be able to help way more than a 90/10 split.

To your third point- With the way creep is going for NR's drawings , I would be 100% fine if there was a LQ waiting period for NR DEA individuals of 3-5 years. That would eliminate the guys who are point averaging to get into units year, after year, after year again. My only chance at the units I am looking at is the random draw at this point so I would gladly pursue a 5 year waiting period for DEA as a non-resident. That would in theory get 5 times X amount of people who have drawn the tags out of the draw by year 5....Basically, it would reduce the amount of people applying by X amount of tags per year and increase the random draw odds from 3% up to say 20% which would be fine by me.
Of course, this would benefit guys like me who are still young so I am sure that a lot of people would be against this idea. Would I like to hunt Wyoming yearly? Sure. Do I need to? No.
 

RICMIC

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Feb 21, 2012
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I would guess that the vast majority of NRs who actually hunt in Wyoming are like me and only use their points to draw a GENERAL area tag, in areas that residents can hunt every year if they don't draw a limited tag. My age and point creep are coming together to close off that option one of these days though. My first WY deer tag in 2009 took 0-1 pts. for H, and my first GEN elk tag was 1 pt. in 2011. I am now in the 4pt. area to draw either and will be well into my 70's before I can expect one of those tags again.
Point being, that this discussion doesn't really have an impact on many of us forum members who will never even try for a limited area.