Preference Point Systems- have we gone too far?

[Zim]

New Mexico has the best system currently in place. Large resident allocation 84%, outfitters 10%, non res no guided 6%. Although it would be nice to see a few more tags go to non res at least you have a chance every year. Heck I drew a 16a tag the very first year I applied.

Best? Really? Why should outfitters get any welfare at all? Much less a whopping 10%, which I believe is the highest percentage of welfare tags in the US? I ran my own business for 20 years and never got nor expected any business welfare.

The folks who think the NM system is great are either outfitters, landowners, or in bed with them.

 

[siwulat]

I have been following along with this thread from the beginning, and everyone seems to have a valid point.

I think what we have discovered is that every preference point or tag allocation system is flawed in some way, and I don't know that we can come up with a single solution that would appease every group of stakeholders completely.

As far as my thinking goes, I am simply happy to have the opportunity to hunt, both in my home state and others.

 

[packmule]

Boils down to the wildlife agencies having to spend more time managing the public than the wildlife.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Nevada is a state that has very few big game animals compared to most other western states. So I would be very upset if the Dept. of Wildlife gave more of a share of tags to non res hunters. Some tags are already dificult to draw even for us residents.
I think most residents of any given state would be protective of their game animals and not say lets give non res the same odds for a tag as residents and at the same price.
I don't know if it's possible to fix the point system without screwing those that have a long term investment already in place.

 

[Granby guy]

I agree that preference points can be problematic but I like them because it helps me determine when I am going to draw so I can plan accordingly. In Colorado point creep is basically affecting only the top tier units. If a person were to pick 2 areas, one OTC and one 0-1 point unit and hunt those two units every year they had a tag I believe they would be successful in harvesting the animal they would have waited 20+ yrs for in the trophy units. For me the wait is just not worth it and doesn't usually live up the hype once you draw the tag.

 

[islandlaker]

As a non resident of the west. I personally love how Wyoming does it now. I hope they don't swap the special and regular tag allotment though. I have been able to have a blast and been successful with getting general tags for mule deer. I plan on hunting elk and antelope once every 4 years or so. So I have been hunting random draw deer and will build points for elk and antelope and cash them in on ok units at 4-5 preference points. I want to hunt every year. I have seen some great animals, shot some nice ones. I have had fun. I wish every western state did it like Wyoming.

 

[Micah S]

As a non resident of the west. I personally love how Wyoming does it now. I hope they don't swap the special and regular tag allotment though. I have been able to have a blast and been successful with getting general tags for mule deer. I plan on hunting elk and antelope once every 4 years or so. So I have been hunting random draw deer and will build points for elk and antelope and cash them in on ok units at 4-5 preference points. I want to hunt every year. I have seen some great animals, shot some nice ones. I have had fun. I wish every western state did it like Wyoming.

You might think it's great now but in a few years it may take you 8 years to draw a tag that took you 4 years now.

 

[badgerbob]

Guy- Thanks for posting a well thought out perspective on this subject. I dont believe that you can objectively look at the systems in place and say that they are not detrimental to the sport, our way of life as outdoorsman, and future generations of the sport. If someone is OK with the fact that we are discouraging hunters, that is just a sad and selfish perspective.....a defeatest mindset, setting us all up for the much larger crowd that opposes our way of life to take us down, sell off federal lands, shut down hunting, etc. If our sport is to survive, we must promote it. I can greatly apprciatee that the folks that have many points would not want to lose that chance that they have built. Surely, there are ways to resolve those challenges in a manner that limits a continuation of the problem. Your last paragraph broaches some of that problem in reasonable manner and it is solutions like that we need to seek for us all to have a hunting future.

Max points makes a lot of sensel also, and i dont mean 22 points. It would seem that if you passed laws that initiated a relatively low max point (maybe 8 or 10) and grandfathered in those with existing points with a freeze on building furthur, then the hunter with 22 points is bound to be treated fairly, having high PP in the draw for a few years untill they all draw out and no one is left with more than the newly implemented max. combine that with conepts like you promote in the end of your post and it seems we could be fair to the existing point holders while staying the ongoing buildup one heck of a problem for future hunters.

There has to be a way to stop the continuation of the problem.
I

Seems to me after 8-10 years a cap would mean everyone would have max points which would have the same result as having no points at all. So you would have no chance at all for the 8-10 years then have the same as everyone else even if they had been in the system for 20 years. Oregon uses 75% for highest point holders. All the rest draw for the remaining 25%. Not the best maybe but at least an attempt.

 

[swampokie]

This is a fantastic description of nm! I love the straight up no points system but the outfitter and private landowner welfare is sickening!

Best? Really? Why should outfitters get any welfare at all? Much less a whopping 10%, which I believe is the highest percentage of welfare tags in the US? I ran my own business for 20 years and never got nor expected any business welfare.

The folks who think the NM system is great are either outfitters, landowners, or in bed with them.

 

[mallardsx2]

Well then....I'm glad I didn't find this post until today...after reading all of these posts I have made up my mind...

I will be applying to hunt starting this season and will be drawing a tag every year (starting this season) wherever it takes 3-5 points. I may draw in with muzzle-loader, archery, or rifle (Whichever makes the most sense with my schedule)

This season...I'm drawing in with my elk points in Colorado.

I'm in my early 30's and the more I read about people on here saving their points I can help but wonder how old some of you guys are and how many good hunts you have missed out on because you wanted the "Ultimate unit". Do you guys realize that you are not going to live forever? If a guy is in his 70's and is holding 20+ points he is either a fool or just don't care if he gets drawn. Yes I realize that he is potentially hunting over the counter areas while trying to draw into that good unit but how many guys are just sitting back waiting and then when they draw the tag they arnt going to make the best of it because they don't even know how to hunt elk...I bet you that number would blow your mind.

I can draw an Co Elk unit with 3-5 points 4 times in the next 20 years. Not to mention I am just having this discussion for multiple species in multiple states which means I will be hunting somewhere every year. All while the rest of my points build. Its going to be a rotation of states and species over my lifetime. In theory I would hunt Colorado and Wyoming with 5 points for any given species every year and be in that same unit 6 times for every species...Pending that point creep doesn't blow those areas out of the water... Either way I am still going to be hunting a unit that will have significantly less hunting pressure than an OTC unit.

Currently I have:

4- Co Elk
3- Co Deer
3- Co PH
1- Wy Elk
1- Wy Deer
1- Wy PH
1- Vt Moose Archery
1- Vt Moose Rifle
1- IW Deer
1- KS Deer
1- SD Special Buck
1- UT Elk Bonus
1- UT Elk Preference
1- UT Deer Preference

This number of point in this many states does not guarantee me ANY animals but it does offer me the option of multiple chance in a years time to go hunting the west in a 4-5 point unit. Having said that, I am not targeting a 4-5 point unit to have a better chance at harvesting a bigger animal as much as I am looking to get away from the crowds. This to me is the biggest advantage of the preference points. Limited hunting pressure pure and simple.

I feel that a lot of people burn their points on 1-3 point units and 6 point + units. I could be wrong but that's my plan and I'm going to stick to it as long as I can.

For filler material, I can always hunt OTC archery and I can hunt Ontario Moose (Drop camp). Not to mention the other 100 hobbies that I have...

To the people that recommend hunting the same unit year after year after year to gain knowledge of the terrain and perfect hunting technique to that area I say Kudos to you. I would prefer to do this as well but I think I'll roll my dice with whatever I can draw hunt harder than 98% of the hunters and make the best of the hunt wherever I am at. A guy only has so much room on the wall in his house for mounts anyhow.

So to you guys who want to hunt those units with that take 15+ points... HAVE AT IT and dont worry.... you wont be seeing me in the woods there! haha

Long winded speech? Maybe but back to the original ?

Have the preference points systems gone too far??? My bank account after applying for all of those points last season says yes..

Good luck in the draws this season everyone!

 

[NDHunter]

You might think it's great now but in a few years it may take you 8 years to draw a tag that took you 4 years now.

Yes, point creep will continue to go up. That's just reality. Big game hunting is getting more popular and more people every year are getting into the point games. Not a whole lot we can do about it.

 

[NDHunter]

I'm with you mallardsx2. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you and am starting to burn my points in the 3-5 point units. Hoping to pull WY elk this year and also antelope. Maybe a few states like NV, UT and AZ I'll go for a higher point unit. Can only do so many hunts each year...

 

[ore hunter]

I think that the wilderness law in Wyoming for non-res to require a guide needs to be scrapped!! no other state I know of had this b s law!!.the land owner tag system needs a revamp like guy is talking about.I do feel though that it wouldn't be fair to change or reverse the 60/40 split system on folks that are in the point system now unless the whole amount of the "special" tags were just put into the "regular" pool,but you know that will never happen.each state has some pros and cons with there systems,,hard to make a perfect system that every body likes all aspects of.I actually think that of most of the state systems that wyomings is complicated but a fairly decent system.I do not want to see Wyoming going to the bonus point system like Nevada or Utah has.

 

[Slugz]

I think that the wilderness law in Wyoming for non-res to require a guide needs to be scrapped!! no other state I know of had this b s law!!.the land owner tag system needs a revamp like guy is talking about.I do feel though that it wouldn't be fair to change or reverse the 60/40 split system on folks that are in the point system now unless the whole amount of the "special" tags were just put into the "regular" pool,but you know that will never happen.each state has some pros and cons with there systems,,hard to make a perfect system that every body likes all aspects of.I actually think that of most of the state systems that wyomings is complicated but a fairly decent system.I do not want to see Wyoming going to the bonus point system like Nevada or Utah has.

Why is that guide requirement there? Is it solely an old making making law?

 

[Zim]

I think that the wilderness law in Wyoming for non-res to require a guide needs to be scrapped!! no other state I know of had this b s law!!.the land owner tag system needs a revamp like guy is talking about.I do feel though that it wouldn't be fair to change or reverse the 60/40 split system on folks that are in the point system now unless the whole amount of the "special" tags were just put into the "regular" pool,but you know that will never happen.each state has some pros and cons with there systems,,hard to make a perfect system that every body likes all aspects of.I actually think that of most of the state systems that wyomings is complicated but a fairly decent system.I do not want to see Wyoming going to the bonus point system like Nevada or Utah has.

Haha there's plenty of other outfitter welfare in Wyoming you don't even think or know about. The state does not want you to know. WY has the 2nd most auction tags in the USA, only behind Utah. Every one of those is a potential big money client for the outfitters, taken out of the regular draw. Then I've had outfitters challenge me on this saying these auction tags are "above and aside from the regular quota so they should not be looked at as taken from DIYers!" Hahaha! What kind of retarded logic is that???!!!

On top of that, did you know the state gives outfitters preferred campsite locations on federal lands miles in from public trailheads? They put up gates with locks the outfitters open and drive their trucks back in where you and I must walk. This is totally against federal regulations but the state condones it. More welfare.

Would have been nice when I had my building business if my state required customers to hire a licenced general contractor to build their home, instead of having some build their own. Didn't work that way. Hell I even had to compete with unlicensed contractors that would use relatives names as fake owners when they built spec homes for sale next to mine! One was a city police officer collecting disability checks as I watched him shingling a roof down the block from me! I was definitely in the wrong business!!!

 

[JohnyRingo]

I am one of those guys who can't seem to draw a limited quota elk permit in an area that 10-15 years ago had odds at 65%. Now the odds are around 25%. I have only drawn 4 tags in the last 15 years and I am not getting any younger. I have investigated all of the different points systems that are out there and people that live in those other states still claim that Wyoming has the best system. I think a simple solution that doesn't involve points is that if you draw a limited quota permit (deer, elk and antelope), you have a one year waiting period to apply for another limited quota area. You can still hunt a general area or an area with left over permits. You would still get to hunt every year, but once you draw a premium tag, you will need to sit out a year and give someone who didn't draw a better chance of drawing. We already do this for sheep and moose as a 5-year waiting period. For me and a great many others I know wouldn't mind sitting out one year. It would increase the odds in all of the limited quota areas, because there would be a number of guys sitting out. It doesn't give anyone a guaranteed permit and it doesn't put kids and people new to the sport or new to the state at a disadvantage. I don't think there is a perfect answer to this issue, but I do like this solution.

 

[88man]

The biggest issue I have with the point system is how it affects young hunters. They can't apply in Wy Or Co until of age to draw a tag and hunt. Therefore they will never ever draw the best units for the most part. Even a unit like 76 in colorado which I have drawn. My daughter who turns 11 next week will never draw that tag in her life. She basically will never draw any of the max pt units in wyoming either. I know theres the random chance portion of the draw. As far as cost. I do see value in Wy an appreciate the professionalism of the wardens and biologists.

 

[Rooster410]

How anyone can support a bonus/preference point system, and knowingly screw over every other hunter that wasn't lucky enough to be born before that system got started is beyond me. It's pure selfishness, and nothing else.

Wyoming residents have it as good as it gets. 100% fair draw odds, regardless of when you got in the game, for the limited tags, and high quality over the counter tags for when you don't draw.

Any one that wants to screw that up is nuts.

It's disappointing to me, to know that I'll never even have a CHANCE to draw the AZ strip, or the nw corner of CO. But, at least my odds of drawing a Gila elk tag are just as good as everyone else.

I would concur, I was born in the wrong decade. Its disheartening to realize some hunts will/were never possible.

 

[BuzzH]

I am one of those guys who can't seem to draw a limited quota elk permit in an area that 10-15 years ago had odds at 65%. Now the odds are around 25%. I have only drawn 4 tags in the last 15 years and I am not getting any younger. I have investigated all of the different points systems that are out there and people that live in those other states still claim that Wyoming has the best system. I think a simple solution that doesn't involve points is that if you draw a limited quota permit (deer, elk and antelope), you have a one year waiting period to apply for another limited quota area. You can still hunt a general area or an area with left over permits. You would still get to hunt every year, but once you draw a premium tag, you will need to sit out a year and give someone who didn't draw a better chance of drawing. We already do this for sheep and moose as a 5-year waiting period. For me and a great many others I know wouldn't mind sitting out one year. It would increase the odds in all of the limited quota areas, because there would be a number of guys sitting out. It doesn't give anyone a guaranteed permit and it doesn't put kids and people new to the sport or new to the state at a disadvantage. I don't think there is a perfect answer to this issue, but I do like this solution.

Sounds to me like you've drawn about as often as the odds tell you...4 tags in 15 years is over 25%.

Also, your idea of waiting periods just doesn't pan out to any kind of significant increase in draw odds. There is probably more impact on drawing odds over a 2 year period on things like quota changes, magazine/on-line rating of units, a big animal being killed in a specific unit, etc. etc. etc.

Forcing someone to sit out a year between tags will not change draw odds enough to make it worth while.

Also, there are many first choice pronghorn. deer, and elk units in Wyoming that can be drawn every single year in the initial draw as a first choice, but rarely, if ever have leftover tags available.

It would seem illogical to make an applicant sit out a year when they can draw the tag every year as a first choice.

The best system is a random draw for all tags, every year. Nobody ever has any better, or worse odds, than anyone else.

The only thing I would like to see is a once in a life-time harvest on bull moose, goat, sheep, and bison.

Point schemes create nothing but problems...all of them.

 

[Fink]

Sounds to me like you've drawn about as often as the odds tell you...4 tags in 15 years is over 25%.

Also, your idea of waiting periods just doesn't pan out to any kind of significant increase in draw odds. There is probably more impact on drawing odds over a 2 year period on things like quota changes, magazine/on-line rating of units, a big animal being killed in a specific unit, etc. etc. etc.

Forcing someone to sit out a year between tags will not change draw odds enough to make it worth while.

Also, there are many first choice pronghorn. deer, and elk units in Wyoming that can be drawn every single year in the initial draw as a first choice, but rarely, if ever have leftover tags available.

It would seem illogical to make an applicant sit out a year when they can draw the tag every year as a first choice.

The best system is a random draw for all tags, every year. Nobody ever has any better, or worse odds, than anyone else.

The only thing I would like to see is a once in a life-time harvest on bull moose, goat, sheep, and bison.

Point schemes create nothing but problems...all of them.

Buzz, I hope you fight like hell in your state, to keep out a point system for elk deer and pronghorn. I might like to move to your fine state someday, and I don't want to be any more behind that 8ball.