Preference Point Systems- have we gone too far?

[Musket Man]

Dont mind him, he just from Texas. HAHA!!!

 

[alaska2go]

Here is my 2 cents on the whole thing. My dad is now 75 and in the 60's,70's,& early 80's he never had to apply for tags. He went down and purchased one and went hunting. Him and his buddies could go in any unit they wanted that was at the time open to hunting. By let's say 1985 dad & his hunting buddies were tired of the over crowding during the rifle season and wanted a different option to go hunting. So they picked up bow & muzzle loader hunts. Bow hunts in most areas was over the counter & muzzle loader was a draw only. It would really piss them off when they didn't draw a muzzle loading tag and would have to make a choice of bow hunting or sit on the bench. Along came the early 90's and most of the ranches we could hunt sold off there land to developers and broke up huge parcel of land into 35-40 acre ranchettes. Then things we noticed about public land we used to hunt was getting more crowded due to the large ranches not being available to hunt any longer. It was mainly was non resident hunter going to public land do to the sale off big ranches. Most of the ranches we hunted in the 70's & 80's would just let us hunt as along we stayed away from the cattle. Heck most ranchers hated elk due to the fact that destroyed their fences and would compete for food with their cattle. Then ranchers became aware that people would pay to hunt on their property and that put a coboush on our hunting on private ranches. No big deal we will hunt the NF or BLM next to ranch. We would just wait 3 or 4 days latter in the season because we knew that the texans, arkanasans, & the other non residents would push them over to the public land. But when the big ranchers owners would die the kids would sell off the ranch and I think that hurt public land hunting.
Foward to today, hunting has become more of an industry than a life style like so many of us here on this form have grown up with. The big ranches of today lease their property to outfitters or charge a trespassing fee to hunt. And i'll be the first to say I don't blame them. I would do the same thing to help cover expenses of owning a big chuck of ground. But that puts a BIG squeeze on public ground and the resources inwhich we like to hunt. Land owners are keen to the money guys are willing to spend to kill big bull or buck. If you don't believe me just look up Hill Ranches that the eastmans hunt and give a hunt away to see how much you will pay to harvest a 370" bull !!! Cielo vista ranch used to be the Taylor ranch & I used to guide elk hunter there in the early 90's & they payed the outfitter $4500. It is triple that now. I think T.V. shows showing hunts on these ranches have us all worked up into a freenzy on we gotta kill the biggest damn criiter in the woods. And thus leave us to us all putting in for the best units for the best possible chance to make this happen on public ground. Because us working smucks can't afford to to dump $12,000 or so into a private land guided hunt and some of us don't want to be guided either.
In conclusion because a lot of us like to hunt and we watch hunting shows we kinda put a personnal pressure on ourselves to go out and try to be like TV personalities. I'm not saying we do it consciously but, in the back of our mind we think it. I know i do & i gotta slap myself to not to. I remember the days i was happy with any bull and wasn't trying to kill the biggest one in the woods. Now a days i catch myself trying to out do some guy on Tv and I got to slap myself & rethink my goals of why I love to hunt. Don't get me wrong I love to shot big critters as much as the next guy but i try to keep it all in perspective. We all want quality hunting time in the field and less pressure. But we live in a world now that is limited not only in opportunity, but by our wallets too. I challege you guys that read this forum to think back when you first starting hunting and remember it was just great to be out there hunting & not get worked up about the system but try use it best that fits your budget, time, and opportunity that you have on this earth..

 

[shootbrownelk]

Here is my 2 cents on the whole thing. My dad is now 75 and in the 60's,70's,& early 80's he never had to apply for tags. He went down and purchased one and went hunting. Him and his buddies could go in any unit they wanted that was at the time open to hunting. By let's say 1985 dad & his hunting buddies were tired of the over crowding during the rifle season and wanted a different option to go hunting. So they picked up bow & muzzle loader hunts. Bow hunts in most areas was over the counter & muzzle loader was a draw only. It would really piss them off when they didn't draw a muzzle loading tag and would have to make a choice of bow hunting or sit on the bench. Along came the early 90's and most of the ranches we could hunt sold off there land to developers and broke up huge parcel of land into 35-40 acre ranchettes. Then things we noticed about public land we used to hunt was getting more crowded due to the large ranches not being available to hunt any longer. It was mainly was non resident hunter going to public land do to the sale off big ranches. Most of the ranches we hunted in the 70's & 80's would just let us hunt as along we stayed away from the cattle. Heck most ranchers hated elk due to the fact that destroyed their fences and would compete for food with their cattle. Then ranchers became aware that people would pay to hunt on their property and that put a coboush on our hunting on private ranches. No big deal we will hunt the NF or BLM next to ranch. We would just wait 3 or 4 days latter in the season because we knew that the texans, arkanasans, & the other non residents would push them over to the public land. But when the big ranchers owners would die the kids would sell off the ranch and I think that hurt public land hunting.
Foward to today, hunting has become more of an industry than a life style like so many of us here on this form have grown up with. The big ranches of today lease their property to outfitters or charge a trespassing fee to hunt. And i'll be the first to say I don't blame them. I would do the same thing to help cover expenses of owning a big chuck of ground. But that puts a BIG squeeze on public ground and the resources inwhich we like to hunt. Land owners are keen to the money guys are willing to spend to kill big bull or buck. If you don't believe me just look up Hill Ranches that the eastmans hunt and give a hunt away to see how much you will pay to harvest a 370" bull !!! Cielo vista ranch used to be the Taylor ranch & I used to guide elk hunter there in the early 90's & they payed the outfitter $4500. It is triple that now. I think T.V. shows showing hunts on these ranches have us all worked up into a freenzy on we gotta kill the biggest damn criiter in the woods. And thus leave us to us all putting in for the best units for the best possible chance to make this happen on public ground. Because us working smucks can't afford to to dump $12,000 or so into a private land guided hunt and some of us don't want to be guided either.
In conclusion because a lot of us like to hunt and we watch hunting shows we kinda put a personnal pressure on ourselves to go out and try to be like TV personalities. I'm not saying we do it consciously but, in the back of our mind we think it. I know i do & i gotta slap myself to not to. I remember the days i was happy with any bull and wasn't trying to kill the biggest one in the woods. Now a days i catch myself trying to out do some guy on Tv and I got to slap myself & rethink my goals of why I love to hunt. Don't get me wrong I love to shot big critters as much as the next guy but i try to keep it all in perspective. We all want quality hunting time in the field and less pressure. But we live in a world now that is limited not only in opportunity, but by our wallets too. I challege you guys that read this forum to think back when you first starting hunting and remember it was just great to be out there hunting & not get worked up about the system but try use it best that fits your budget, time, and opportunity that you have on this earth..

I think we have a winner here!

 

[RICMIC]

Alaska2go nailed it. We have a finite resource with an increasing population. I don't know how a state can change their PP system without totally screwing the guy who has been on-board for years. I'm in limbo land in Colorado with PP right now, but it's hard to jump off the train. If I were a WY resident, I think that the present system of limited tags with a general tag option allows you to hunt every year. This works for them because of the low state population, but Colorado would be a different story.

 

[packmule]

packmule, the hunting system of the guy with the most money gets to shoot the biggest animal may be popular in Texas but here in the west the majority of hunters despise that system. That is why we like public animals, public land, and the general public having access to the two.

It's a trend that's growing out West. You have LOs getting a larger piece of the pie, voucher prices going up, 4th seasons reinstated earlier than they should just to have a rut hunt for the high point/high $ guys despite local opposition. The way people make it sound on the point systems is that everyone should be equal regardless to how many points a person has or if a person starts out ahead they should only be able to acquire so much before they're capped. It just rubs me the wrong way to see that mentality amongst a bunch of conservative leaning people.



MM, yes I is. Hardest part here is finding a place to hunt. The muley tag & WT tags are guaranteed. There's the same rift between the landowners & the leasees. I will say there's an obvious difference in how the wildlife resource is taken care between the public land, sub$1000 lease and & $3-5k leases...probably something to that.

 

[coloradoshedhead]

Holy crap there is a lot of whining and griping going on here. Since when did a guy need to draw a super duper, uber awesome primo tag to have a good hunt? I just don't understand why there is such an obsession about drawing the primo tags. Right now there's that thread about the guy who shot that giant 400"+ bull in WY. What type of unit was it shot in? GENERAL.

Personally I like the point systems. Everybody is so obsessed about the glory units that I can get just a couple points, draw a decent unit and can go hunting. Plus in states like WY, I have a chance in the random draw every year that I apply. And I understand sometimes guys are in a situation where they can only buy points for a year but for the most part, that just seems silly to me. Why not put your name in the hat?

If you don't like WY's system, apply elsewhere. The draw systems are what they are. Pick the one you like and apply there.

Agreed. I hunt otc units for elk every year and chase 300" bulls. Those premier units have way too much publicity that people buy into. The pp system has created these premier hunts, which in turn has created too much greed for the chance of killing a monster animal. Thats not what hunting should be about ,at least for me and my family.

With the draw debate I like the idea of keeping the top point holders at the current points they have and not giving out anymore points. When all of those point holders burn their points they get put into a random pool with everybody else.

With trophy species such as moose, sheep, goat and bison the idea of a once in a lifetime filled tag is great, and if you don't fill that tag a 5-year waiting period to start putting in for a that tag again.

Also the LO tags here in Colorado should be for landowners and their property. The fact that guys can "outbid" on a trophy hunt for anything except for a governors tag is a joke.

 

[Gr8bawana]

In NV there is a waiting period for some tags. Bull elk has a period of 10 years to even be able to re-apply if you harvest one and 5 years if you get a tag and are unsuccesful.
Mountain goat and Bighorn have a 10 year waitong period to re-apply whether you havest or not.
It doesn't seem to make the odds any better even for us residents.

 

[laxwyo]

Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but that's the way it is in Wyoming right now. Landowner tags can't be sold to anyone. It's only good for their land (and any landlocked public that they control). A lot of the bigger ranches split-up among family members so they can get more tags. Some rancher/outfitters get caught selling their LO tags to NR's, some get caught. Problem is, the fines are less than what they charged for the tags, so even if caught they're money ahead.

They can't be sold but they are good for the whole unit the property resides in

 

[llp]

There should be no preference points. A straight up random draw is the only way to go. And I have many, many points in many states.

Every system of points is designed to give one group an advantage over some other group. I've spent plenty of time learning the rules and being very successful drawing great tags. It is pathetic. Maybe one year I want to take a shot a getting a "strip" tag, but the rest of the time I want to do general hunts. Sure my odds are very long if I only apply for the strip once, but like the silly movie saying" So you are telling me I still have a chance?
Points systems mean only a limited number are even in the game, and they will feel like they "earned" a trophy animal just by waiting for the tag. Instead they should invest time out hunting. It fractures the public's interest in hunting. Why should I care about the strip when I can never, ever draw, starting now? There are many similar units.

Random is just that. Put in for where you want to go, and then HUNT. Next year try for the long shots if you want, and the following year hunt a low demand hunt. Why be penalized in the future? There could be a plan to eliminate points in any state over a period of time. States change the rules all the time. We are not stuck with the sins of our fathers....

 

[shootbrownelk]

They can't be sold but they are good for the whole unit the property resides in

I didn't know that, are you sure? If so, That Sucks.

 

[Zim]

Working on a bit of a political piece for the E-news later this spring. I have been talking to a lot of guys and studying a lot of the preference point systems out there this past few weeks. I'm beginning to wonder if we have taken these systems too far? Every system seems to be failing or near failing to deliver the results they were designed for or the results they once did.

Point systems may have meant well initially, but time has proven all of them to be prime targets for unethical bait-n-switch politics, fueled by various special interest groups. All about greed and money. Since 1996 I've been applying in 12 different states, and if Arizona passes it's proposed bend-over changes next year, only one........New Hampshire (moose), will have not morphed their systems to cheat point holders who invested in their Ponzi schemes. Some totally devalued points to where I was forced to dump everything I'd invested. If you tried to do business like this in private industry you'd be thrown in jail for fraud, but states get away with it by signing a piece of paper that says it's all good. Just bend over and grab your ankles.

Coming from a 20 year participant, I agree with those who believe no point, random draw systems would be best. However, it's just too appealing for legislators to create these schemes to steal money down the road. No draw systems still aren't immune from special interest groups though.........see New Mexico outfitter & LO welfare. Either way, the good old days are gone. Everybody wants sumthin fer nuthin, just like my ex who does nothin but watch Jerry Springer all day while she's eatin chicken fried steak and NOT WORKING. Welcome to the USA.

 

[NDHunter]

Either way, the good old days are gone. Everybody wants sumthin fer nuthin, just like my ex who does nothin but watch Jerry Springer all day while she's eatin chicken fried steak and NOT WORKING. Welcome to the USA.

She sounds like a real peach.

 

[LaHunter]

My experience is mule deer hunting in WY with a NR general region tag. One thing I think would be an improvement is for the state to eliminate all general region tags and make all deer, elk, and antelope tags Limited Quota for NR as well as Residents. As it is right now, a Resident can hunt mule deer in every general region across the state until he/she tags out. NR must hunt within the boundaries of the unit/region that our tag is valid in. It seems to me that the G&F could manage hunting pressure along with game numbers/quality better with this system. I have no problem with Residents getting priority for tags and NR paying more for tags, but the rules of what, where, and how we hunt should be the same, based on our tag, not where we live.

As for as the PP issue, I don't play. Just me, but I see that as a bad investment of $$ and time with very poor odds of getting any return. And it seems the odds are getting worse.

Bottom line, there is limited land and game and it seems like the demand for western hunting is increasing. When this happens with anything else, the price tends to increase.

Just my $0.02

Thanks Guy for starting this thread.

 

[Timberstalker]

Oregon's point system is about 20 years old. One of the biggest issue I see is for new hunters, it is very discouraging for them to start from zero. Most of the really good hunts here are taking 13-18 points to draw now. I wonder how many points these hunts will take to draw in 13-18 years. It will get to a point where the only people with enough points to draw are senior citizens, we're nearly there already. It wasn't a bad system when we had to front the tag money and there wasn't any point saver option. Now people are buying points for everyone in their family because that's what we have to do to keep up. Points systems should not have point saver options, if you want to apply for a hunt that's what we should do, but they way they are today we are forced to pay to stay in the game.

 

[laxwyo]

I didn't know that, are you sure? If so, That Sucks.

I know lots of people that married into sweet LO tags in premium units around Rock Springs. They get to hunt anywhere and kill very nice animals. You get to learn a limited quota area real well when u hunt it every other year

 

[Doe Nob]

To get a good system, you need to start with what you want the solution to look like. I want a chance, however slim, at the top tier units. Then I want to be able to build points to draw middle tier units. Lastly I want OTC tags available so I can go hunting any year I don't draw something.
I think a lot of high point holders are stuck applying for the best units because they feel they have too much invested to "burn" points on a less than top tier unit. Well, they are there, all the green and yellow chip units are fairly easy to draw in most places. If you want to go hunting, you can drop down and get a tag for one of those.

It is hard to justify all the expenses for some of the general hunts for an out of state hunter, which is why we all go for the premium units. Nobody wants to drive 3000 miles and burn a weeks vacation to shoot a forkhorn.

I don't think any state nails it, but applying several places I have effectively achieved this. Wyoming does a pretty good job w/ the NR tags I think. Myself I apply a lot of places for mostly premium units. If I want to go, I have OTC hunts I can do, or I can pay up for an outfitted or private land hunt in CO or NM.

So the ideal system should give a % of the tags to a random draw, a % should go to top point holders for those that want to wait 30 years for a particular unit, and there should be general or otc tags available for those that just want to get out and hunt.

 

[dead river]

................
It is hard to justify all the expenses for some of the general hunts for an out of state hunter, which is why we all go for the premium units. Nobody wants to drive 3000 miles and burn a weeks vacation to shoot a forkhorn............

One thing that is missed from a lot of this discussion is what we get from a top tier unit. It is not just the animal, it is the experience of hunting locations with a lot of contact with game, low pressure, and less contact with other hunters. The quality of the hunt experience is a huge factor in what most of us seem to want. I dont mind driving the miles to get a great experience, regardless of the animal, but i have learned that if i want to hunt low pressure units to just have a more relaxing hunt away from hunters, then i need LE units...being late in the game, we just set goals for hunts that we can enjoy a quality hunting experience and draw out every few years. I would rather hunt in a unit with 100 tags vs. 500 or 800, even with the same level of trophy potential.

Sure, young hunters can start today and hunt something, as mentioned by multiple post. But human nature is fairly consistent....a young hunter has to take units that in his mind are "lesser" units while he is thinking that elite that were born in a different era get a privilege because they bought years of points....like it or not, it is discouraging for the next generation of hunters. If you think there are already enough hunters, look how quickly the anti-hunters are growing.

 

[Duckhunterbrad]

New Mexico has the best system currently in place. Large resident allocation 84%, outfitters 10%, non res no guided 6%. Although it would be nice to see a few more tags go to non res at least you have a chance every year. Heck I drew a 16a tag the very first year I applied.

 

[HuskyMusky]

Honestly I don't understand why there isn't just 1 pool of tags... especially when non-res pay 10x or more the price for the same tag. that alone keeps less non-res from applying, therefore, if only 10% of applicants are non-res and we're all in the same pool, on average, non-res should only draw 10% of the tags.

I think sometimes a simpler system would make more sense.

 

[Musket Man]

Honestly I don't understand why there isn't just 1 pool of tags... especially when non-res pay 10x or more the price for the same tag. that alone keeps less non-res from applying, therefore, if only 10% of applicants are non-res and we're all in the same pool, on average, non-res should only draw 10% of the tags.

I think sometimes a simpler system would make more sense.

Idaho has just 1 pool of tags. But NR's can only draw 10% of the tags and once the NR quota is reached they close it to NR's and NR's are not guaranteed any tags at all and no NR's would be drawn if all the tags were filled before a NR came up in the draw.