Preference Point Systems- have we gone too far?

[Guy]

This is what we need. UH, the unit you're hoping to get has one particular land owner all the way over by baggs but he kills huge Bulls on the western side of the unit. Do landowners deserve a type 1 tag?? If animals are on their property so much and they deserve a tag, wouldn't a cow tag suffice ? Maybe type 1 for their property and a cow tag off their property. Sick of seeing people with LO tags killing huge bulls on public land? What is the point of that? I do agree that someone should be able to hunt their property regardless of its limited quota or not

Weighted system is best. You get an extra entry for every point you have for a lottery draw and certain units would have at least a year waiting period after drawing. People who haven't drawn have best odds but everyone still has a snowballs chance. I do see some downside to party hunting. Would they average it?

Guy, curious if we couldn't do something politically as a whole at least for Wyoming.

WE can always do something in WY politically. Us (the residents) and the cattleman are pretty much the only entities the G&F is deathly afraid of in mass. Maybe, the outfitters, but that is getting less and less each year. I just don't think I am a big fan of a resident preference point system though. As we have seen with this post, there is a point where the only true fair draw is a random draw, and that's what we have now in Wyoming and I think it works pretty well mostly because the supply of tags is so big. With that said, the only one that really gripes me as a resident, is the sheep and moose. I think they should all (sheep, moose, goat and bison) be once in a lifetime tags, if you punch them. If you don't fill your tag you can wait out the waiting period and go again. The way it is now, I know of a lady in WY that has had five sheep tags in her lifetime. That is total crap in my opinion. And she doesn't even really care about hunting, but her husband is nuts about it. Once you kill a ram in Wyoming that should be your sheep and your done. Start applying in MT or CO.

Just my two cents.

G-

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

WE can always do something in WY politically. Us (the residents) and the cattleman are pretty much the only entities the G&F is deathly afraid of in mass. Maybe, the outfitters, but that is getting less and less each year. I just don't think I am a big fan of a resident preference point system though. As we have seen with this post, there is a point where the only true fair draw is a random draw, and that's what we have now in Wyoming and I think it works pretty well mostly because the supply of tags is so big. With that said, the only one that really gripes me as a resident, is the sheep and moose. I think they should all (sheep, moose, goat and bison) be once in a lifetime tags, if you punch them. If you don't fill your tag you can wait out the waiting period and go again. The way it is now, I know of a lady in WY that has had five sheep tags in her lifetime. That is total crap in my opinion. And she doesn't even really care about hunting, but her husband is nuts about it. Once you kill a ram in Wyoming that should be your sheep and your done. Start applying in MT or CO.

Just my two cents.

G-

I can't disagree with that.

 

[trkytrack2]

I know this won't be popular with resident hunters, but I don't think that states should be able to cap non resident tags on federal land hunts. At least they shouldn't be able to cap them at ridiculously low numbers (10%). As an American citizen and tax payer, federal land belongs to me just as much as anyone else regardless of where I live, and I should have the same chance as anyone to draw those tags. I know that the game wardens are state employees, but my higher priced non-resident hunting licenses pay my share of their costs. If states want to cap access on state land or land leased by the state, that's their prerogative. Tags for National forests, wilderness areas and the game that lives in them should not be affected by state of residence though.

What you don't seem to understand is that the states aren't putting a cap on you using federal land but rather they put a cap on the number of tags that are issued for the animals harvested in that particular unit.

 

[trkytrack2]

Random draw is the only fair way to go. I know guys that waited 17/18 years to draw a LE elk tag as a resident. That's just insane.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

I'm not proposing getting rid of the limited entry system. What I'm saying is that for federal land states should not be able to limit the percentage of tags given to non residents. For instance, if a state determines that only 10 tags should be drawn for a quality unit, I have no problem with that. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be able to cap how many of those 10 tags go to non residents. States that cap the percentage of tags that can be drawn by non residents is the issue to which I'm referring. Limiting the total number of tags can be a sound management practice, but allocating that set total based on state of residence is not right. Again on state owned or leased land, that's their decision to make, but on federal land I don't think it should be.

The feds don't have anything to say about the way the states manage big game. The only thing they get involved in is migratory birds.

I remember when most states didn't manage their big game animals as they do now....basically by herds. Used to issues almost unlimited tags and you could hunt anywhere you wanted in the state. That's how lots of the areas got way over harvested. Managing the way they do now, by units/game herds, has really helped. Back in the 50's & 60's we also used to have really long seasons, lots were a month or more long.

The states do a much better job than the feds could...just sayin.

 

[bdan68]

I remember when most states didn't manage their big game animals as they do now....basically by herds. Used to issues almost unlimited tags and you could hunt anywhere you wanted in the state. That's how lots of the areas got way over harvested. Managing the way they do now, by units/game herds, has really helped. Back in the 50's & 60's we also used to have really long seasons, lots were a month or more long.

That's how Washington state still manages deer and elk- unlimited tags and hunt anywhere in the state.

 

[NDHunter]

Holy crap there is a lot of whining and griping going on here. Since when did a guy need to draw a super duper, uber awesome primo tag to have a good hunt? I just don't understand why there is such an obsession about drawing the primo tags. Right now there's that thread about the guy who shot that giant 400"+ bull in WY. What type of unit was it shot in? GENERAL.

Personally I like the point systems. Everybody is so obsessed about the glory units that I can get just a couple points, draw a decent unit and can go hunting. Plus in states like WY, I have a chance in the random draw every year that I apply. And I understand sometimes guys are in a situation where they can only buy points for a year but for the most part, that just seems silly to me. Why not put your name in the hat?

If you don't like WY's system, apply elsewhere. The draw systems are what they are. Pick the one you like and apply there.

 

[NDHunter]

I know this won't be popular with resident hunters, but I don't think that states should be able to cap non resident tags on federal land hunts. At least they shouldn't be able to cap them at ridiculously low numbers (10%). As an American citizen and tax payer, federal land belongs to me just as much as anyone else regardless of where I live, and I should have the same chance as anyone to draw those tags. I know that the game wardens are state employees, but my higher priced non-resident hunting licenses pay my share of their costs. If states want to cap access on state land or land leased by the state, that's their prerogative. Tags for National forests, wilderness areas and the game that lives in them should not be affected by state of residence though.

If you want to do down that road, start a new thread. Please.

 

[shootbrownelk]

This the way landowner tags should be sold.

Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but that's the way it is in Wyoming right now. Landowner tags can't be sold to anyone. It's only good for their land (and any landlocked public that they control). A lot of the bigger ranches split-up among family members so they can get more tags. Some rancher/outfitters get caught selling their LO tags to NR's, some get caught. Problem is, the fines are less than what they charged for the tags, so even if caught they're money ahead.

 

[shootbrownelk]

WE can always do something in WY politically. Us (the residents) and the cattleman are pretty much the only entities the G&F is deathly afraid of in mass. Maybe, the outfitters, but that is getting less and less each year. I just don't think I am a big fan of a resident preference point system though. As we have seen with this post, there is a point where the only true fair draw is a random draw, and that's what we have now in Wyoming and I think it works pretty well mostly because the supply of tags is so big. With that said, the only one that really gripes me as a resident, is the sheep and moose. I think they should all (sheep, moose, goat and bison) be once in a lifetime tags, if you punch them. If you don't fill your tag you can wait out the waiting period and go again. The way it is now, I know of a lady in WY that has had five sheep tags in her lifetime. That is total crap in my opinion. And she doesn't even really care about hunting, but her husband is nuts about it. Once you kill a ram in Wyoming that should be your sheep and your done. Start applying in MT or CO.

Just my two cents.

G-

I know a guy who has had 2 sheep tags, 3 moose tags and a Mt. goat tag , luckiest SOB I've ever met. Took him 20 years, I've been applying for a certain deer tag for over 25 years now, with no success, I'm the unluckiest SOB I know.

 

[Sioux33]

Holy crap there is a lot of whining and griping going on here. Since when did a guy need to draw a super duper, uber awesome primo tag to have a good hunt? I just don't understand why there is such an obsession about drawing the primo tags.

I don't think anyone's saying they need a super, duper, uber awesome primo tag to have a good hunt. The vast majority of us hunt general or OTC tags most years and love doing that. It's when you have situations like NV, UT, and AZ where unless you're sitting at 15-20+ points, it's not even worth investing in. WY isn't there yet, they're only at 9 points max, but it's heading in that direction, so why continue down that road? Especially when 90% of hunters are against it and there's ways to accomplish the same revenue goals all the while giving everyone a fair opportunity. Not to mention most states change the rules to cater to someone else every 5-10 years, kicking the point holders in the nuts along the way.

 

[In God We Trust]

I agree! I like Guy's last paragraph, that sounds more fair.

I agree as well. If you are going to have a point system then that would work the best. Guy hits the nail on the head. These PP system were never designed to have a point creep that has some tags taking 20+ years to draw. As far as the LO tags go, good luck with that. There has been more rants and discussions on that subject on this board. I agree that LO tags should be limited to said land owners property and outfitters should have to get tags from land owners or the draw like the rest of us. Sorry guys, you are hunting public game on public land so get in line with the PUBLIC!
I disagree that this is people just whining. Do you have to hunt a trophy unit to have a good hunt? No. But everyone should have a chance to draw a trophy hunt. With the point creep effect destroying youth and new hunters chances of sometimes ever drawing a tag we need to change things up. These were a few of the top things Colorado hunters wanted fixed and guess what. The new 5 year season structure didn't address any of these. There is too much money and political influence in the system to make this what it can and should be. Just my .02 cents.
Thanks for fighting the good fight through your publication for the public land hunter Eastmans Family.

 

[In God We Trust]

I'm not proposing getting rid of the limited entry system. What I'm saying is that for federal land states should not be able to limit the percentage of tags given to non residents. For instance, if a state determines that only 10 tags should be drawn for a quality unit, I have no problem with that. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be able to cap how many of those 10 tags go to non residents. States that cap the percentage of tags that can be drawn by non residents is the issue to which I'm referring. Limiting the total number of tags can be a sound management practice, but allocating that set total based on state of residence is not right. Again on state owned or leased land, that's their decision to make, but on federal land I don't think it should be.

It is right. Just like when I go back to Iowa, Arizona, Wyoming or any other state that I hunt. I know I may not get a tag every year. You see people that live in a state need to be able to hunt in the state they reside because very few people can afford to go out of state to hunt. I think every state should cap tags for NR at 10 or 15% for the first draw and then dole the extras out through the second draw. Yes that means residents have to pony up money for their tags to offset costs but it is still a hell of a lot cheaper then having to go out of state to hunt. We all choose to live in a certain state. I choose Colorado because of the outdoors and mass amounts of public land. I could go to Iowa and make more money and get awesome whitetail tags. Not my thing. So since I choose to reside in Colorado I as a resident of that state should get more opportunities to hunt where I live then a guy from another state.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Holy crap there is a lot of whining and griping going on here. Since when did a guy need to draw a super duper, uber awesome primo tag to have a good hunt? I just don't understand why there is such an obsession about drawing the primo tags. Right now there's that thread about the guy who shot that giant 400"+ bull in WY. What type of unit was it shot in? GENERAL.
.

I agree, earlier in this thread UH said he has 21 bonus points in NV and can't draw a tag. This is only because he is obviously trying to draw from the best areas. Some of these areas only have 2 NR tags. There are other areas that are easier to draw but still long odds for a NR.
Some of these areas are tough to draw even a a resident. Nv has a very low deer population compared to other western statess.

 

[HuskyMusky]

I'm glad I got into the game at about 22yrs old...

Who knows what the future will hold.

I don't have much of a problem with the points game, although as we have population increases, and point creep, it seems to me we aren't lacking any hunters...

I think a point system should give anyone a chance to draw, but favor those with the most points.


One thing that would quickly solve tag numbers, is making everyone pay what non-res pay for tags... talk about good draw odds if that were to happen!?
I'm not saying this should or would ever happen but honestly hearing residents complain about tag numbers etc... when I'm paying $900 for an elk tag and they paid $25...


speaking of points, I just looked in the latest issue at WY sheep points... I'm so glad I never applied for WY sheep, I really don't understand how anyone is getting into the game now for WY sheep, sure you can get lucky... maybe, or if you're a kid or young and gonna keep at it for 30 years+ but honestly with that kind of dedication, save up, buy a hunt in Canada or draw elsewhere etc...

also part of the game as I see it is, hopefully in the future there will be great numbers of these animals... and easier draw odds.

oh well, what are you gonna do, not apply?


btw perhaps an article/suggestion on those with lots of points who are getting older in age and rather than dumping their points, draw a cow/doe tag...

 

[Musket Man]

Open to anyone, some folks just have more luck. No way to please everyone bc the vast majority of folks feel they deserve to hunt where they want when they want regardless of which end of the social spectrum they fall.

As far as introducing kids, their needs should take priority. Whether it's a lot of small game hunting, OTC, putting off personal apps to ensure there's a financial cushion to make sure they get a tag somewhere, etc.

How is their any luck involved in an auction tag???? ALL that matters with auction tags is how rich you are and how much money you can spend. Luck is a random draw where everyone pays the same to enter and a few lucky hunters draw a tag! There is no comparison between the 2.

 

[packmule]

Folks can luck into money like they can a tag. I'd be game for setting aside 1 tag per unit/region/zone to be raffled with gov tag-like dates.

 

[Musket Man]

packmule, your argument for this is holding about as much water as hog wire

 

[packmule]

I've seen that happen. (We have a place below flood plain with hog traps on it.

 

[In God We Trust]

packmule, the hunting system of the guy with the most money gets to shoot the biggest animal may be popular in Texas but here in the west the majority of hunters despise that system. That is why we like public animals, public land, and the general public having access to the two.