Why OTC hunting has ruined CO

[Skibum81]

@HighPlainsHunter you are 100% right. Sadly, it seems nothing can be done about it. But if someone has ideas, I'm in!

 

[graybird]

HPH, do you actually think every person in the state of CO is a hunter? I'd venture to guess there are far more people NOT hunting in the state than who are hunting.

And, who says there isn't great elk hunting in CO unless you have 20+ points in your pocket? You are sadly mistaken, there are great elk units that can take as little as 1-3 points to draw, and put a 330-350 class bull in the back of your truck.

CODAK is correct when stating up to 35% can be given to NR hunters in the limited license draw across the entire state. Name one state that allows more than that? And, that doesn't even include the OTC option to just show up and buy a tag the day before hitting the hills.

Here I'll help you out based upon NR elk allocations within the state's draw systems:
AZ - 10%
CA - 10%
CO - 35%
ID - 10%
MT - 10%
NV - 16%
NM - 6% NR with another 10% R or NR with outfitter
OR - 5%
UT - 10%
WA - 10%
WY - 16%

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

HPH, do you actually think every person in the state of CO is a hunter? I'd venture to guess there are far more people NOT hunting in the state than who are hunting.

And, who says there isn't great elk hunting in CO unless you have 20+ points in your pocket? You are sadly mistaken, there are great elk units that can take as little as 1-3 points to draw, and put a 330-350 class bull in the back of your truck.

CODAK is correct when stating up to 35% can be given to NR hunters in the limited license draw across the entire state. Name one state that allows more than that? And, that doesn't even include the OTC option to just show up and buy a tag the day before hitting the hills.

Here I'll help you out based upon NR elk allocations within the state's draw systems:
AZ - 10%
CA - 10%
CO - 35%
ID - 10%
MT - 10%
NV - 16%
NM - 6% NR with another 10% R or NR with outfitter
OR - 5%
UT - 10%
WA - 10%
WY - 16%

Not every person in any state is a hunter. Nice straw man argument though. Your reaction is hilarious though as you are essentially making my point for me.

Did you forget the title of the thread? It's not "How OTC tags have made for great resident elk hunting". So essentially while you are bragging about the % of NR tags you are shooting yourself in the foot as a resident hunter since those tags have to come from somewhere. Does that make sense?

Seems more like you are a Colorado homer and couldn't handle someone else saying the elk hunting was not that great in Colorado. Which again is the purpose of the 9 pages of thread.

The elk hunting opportunities for CO residents pale in comparison to the opportunities in WY or MT. It's simply a numbers game. Places like Arizona are even worse as they have less elk, huge population, and huge NR demand.

WY sells more than 35% of tags to NR's in some units. Your numbers do not include the Wyoming leftover draw which NR's have the same odds as residents so the allocation to NR's is much higher.

You simply can't have great hunting for 6 million residents, and great OTC hunting for NR's. Simply not possible due to the numbers of animals and hunters.

Sorry to burst your bubble but the whole reason this thread exists is for Colorado residents to complain about the screwed up system you have. Your getting upset does that change that fact that resident hunters in Colorado have been screwed out of tags by landowner tags and OTC tags. Between no landowner tags, no OTC tags, and less residents to compete with both MT and WY offer much better hunting opportunities for residents than CO.

That is why there are an endless number of green plates in Wyoming during elk/deer/and antelope hunting season. Yet people from Wyoming rarely get elk/deer/antelope tags to hunt in Colorado. Does that make sense?

Colorado has sold out to the NR hunter to fund the department. If we get transferable landowner tags, OTC elk hunting, and 5.5 million more residents the hunting will start to suck in Wyoming as well.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

The elk hunting opportunities for CO residents pale in comparison to the opportunities in WY or MT.

I beg to differ with you. I've hunted all 3 states and have a different take. Yes Wyoming and Montana are great elk states, but so is Colorado....ESPECIALLY for residents. You have to do your homework here. I am in the field almost every month of the year and in different units just looking. I NEVERhunt 2nd or 3rd season when OTC tags are sold. I believe a resident hunt (Wyoming, Montana or Colorado) has a definite advantage and shame on them if they don't take advantage of it. SCOUT, SCOUT, SCOUT! That's the big difference between filling a tag and tag soup.

 

[BKC]

I am a resident of Colorado. There is no way that any state has an advantage over Colorado if you are a resident of Colorado. Other states have good game but top to bottom, from Goats and Sheep to Deer and Antelope and everything in between Yes we have a lot of people but talk to them and find out how many have been more than 2 miles off a paved highway. It isn't even half of them. There are far less hunters in this LIBERAL state than you think. If you know all the nooks and crannies and you really get to know the state then you realize how much Colorado has to offer. We have it all! Just because we have the CPW catering to the dollars doesn't mean that we don't have quality animals. I have only hunted in 3 states, Colorado, Wyo and N Dakota, and if I could hunt in other states and have the same success as I do here and the convience of having quality hunting oppurtunties within 2 hours and less, maybe I would consider it, but I don't think it would ever compare to what I have in front of me. I don't like the crowds either but being all by yourself anymore ended about 10 years ago.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

LOL, you guys should start a thread about "How OTC hunting has made for excellent resident elk hunting opportunities in Colorado"

Instead this thread is about how the OTC tags have ruined hunting in Colorado.

I think people are just proud of where they live and don't want to admit that anything might be better across the border.

I have no problem admitting that job opportunities, entertainment, etc is much better in Colorado than Wyoming but I'm not insecure. See how easy that was? LOL
But as far as hunting goes Wyoming and Montana have some huge advantages over Colorado.

Residents in Montana get to hunt for the better part of 4 months with their elk tag. OTC tags.
Residents in Wyoming get the better part of 2 months. OTC tags.
Colorado residents don't even get 2 weeks to hunt most seasons, and that's if they can draw a decent tag.

Do you see the difference?
OTC general elk tags for residents of Wyoming and Montana are much better than OTC or most draw tags in Colorado.

Would you rather have a Montana general elk, Wyoming general elk, or an OTC/0 preference point tag in Colorado?

This answer is really easy.

 

[graybird]

I beg to differ with you. I've hunted all 3 states and have a different take. Yes Wyoming and Montana are great elk states, but so is Colorado....ESPECIALLY for residents. You have to do your homework here. I am in the field almost every month of the year and in different units just looking. I NEVERhunt 2nd or 3rd season when OTC tags are sold. I believe a resident hunt (Wyoming, Montana or Colorado) has a definite advantage and shame on them if they don't take advantage of it. SCOUT, SCOUT, SCOUT! That's the big difference between filling a tag and tag soup.

I'm with CC on this topic. The OTC tags have absolutely zero effect on my hunting here in CO. I can draw an elk tag every 1-3 years and have a decent chance of putting a bull in the back of my truck. Perhaps it takes a little effort to find those hidden gems. In the meantime, pick up a landowner voucher, snipe a tag off the leftover list, buy an OTC tag, go archery hunting ... I don't see how this is not a great state to chase elk in.

@HPH, I drew one your WY elk tags. Guess I'll be one of those guys passing you on the highway. Hope to draw an antelope tag, too. If you don't draw your limited elk tag in WY, what other options do you have as a WY Resident to chase elk outside of the General tag? Snag an anterless tag in the leftover draw?

 

[JimP]

I personally don't think that the OTC tags have hurt elk hunting here in Colorado.

It is all in the hunters perspective. If you are a horn hunter then perhaps it has hurt it.

But if you are a meat hunter everything is getting along fine except for a few units.

 

[BKC]

LOL, you guys should start a thread about "How OTC hunting has made for excellent resident elk hunting opportunities in Colorado"

Instead this thread is about how the OTC tags have ruined hunting in Colorado.

I think people are just proud of where they live and don't want to admit that anything might be better across the border.

I have no problem admitting that job opportunities, entertainment, etc is much better in Colorado than Wyoming but I'm not insecure. See how easy that was? LOL
But as far as hunting goes Wyoming and Montana have some huge advantages over Colorado.

Residents in Montana get to hunt for the better part of 4 months with their elk tag. OTC tags.
Residents in Wyoming get the better part of 2 months. OTC tags.
Colorado residents don't even get 2 weeks to hunt most seasons, and that's if they can draw a decent tag.

Do you see the difference?
OTC general elk tags for residents of Wyoming and Montana are much better than OTC or most draw tags in Colorado.

Would you rather have a Montana general elk, Wyoming general elk, or an OTC/0 preference point tag in Colorado?

This answer is really easy.

Maybe you guys from Wyo and Montana need that much time to fill your tags?

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

I'm with CC on this topic. The OTC tags have absolutely zero effect on my hunting here in CO. I can draw an elk tag every 1-3 years and have a decent chance of putting a bull in the back of my truck. Perhaps it takes a little effort to find those hidden gems. In the meantime, pick up a landowner voucher, snipe a tag off the leftover list, buy an OTC tag, go archery hunting ... I don't see how this is not a great state to chase elk in.

@HPH, I drew one your WY elk tags. Guess I'll be one of those guys passing you on the highway. Hope to draw an antelope tag, too. If you don't draw your limited elk tag in WY, what other options do you have as a WY Resident to chase elk outside of the General tag? Snag an anterless tag in the leftover draw?

I never said Colorado was not a great state to chase elk, but the season structure is short and there are better resident hunting opportunities elsewhere.

My rifle elk season started August 15 and ended 3 weeks ago, how about you? I had a unit 8 cow tag that is good for 6 months, and a general elk tag. I also had a muzzlelader antelope tag, 2 doe antelope tags, a general deer tag, whitetail buck tag, and 2 doe deer tags. And that was not drawing any of my first choice units, LOL.

I get that you guys are proud of Colorado but at some point you have to be realistic. You will wait 10+ years to get a similar antelope tag to the ones I get every year. Colorado has some good deer units but residents never get those tags. When I lived in Nebraska all my family from Colorado would come hunt deer in Nebraska as they rarely had tags and loved the long December muzzleloader season when they were off work.

I will be the first to tell you that there is a reason less than 1 million people choose to live in this cold and windy state and our opportunities for jobs, entertainment, shopping,etc are crap compared to Colorado, but our resident hunting opportunities simply blow Colorado away much like Colorado blows Wyoming away in most categories except average wind speed. I can be realistic about each state and what they offer so I am not picking on Colorado by any means. Heck I hope my daughter goes to college in Colorado instead of UW to be honest with you. But we still have better hunting, and it's not even close.


One quick question.
Would you rather have a Montana general elk, Wyoming general elk, or an OTC/0 preference point elk tag in Colorado?

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

I can draw a 4th season buck deer tag here every other year. During my scouting I have found a couple of prime deer areas that nobody hunts. I don't take anyone there and don't tell anyone about it either. Just pays to stay in the field and put boots on the ground. I've hunted deer for 65 years and I know a good area when I see it. I'll be hunting one of these spots this November, I'll draw it with 2 points.

 

[ColoradoV]

No secret that Colorado CPW sees residents as a "inconvenience" and sees NR as a "atm machine".. The make up of our Commission is a microcosm of todays politics - or american privilege where the goal is not to serve or about the hunters, animals, or anyone else for that matter but rather to deepen the wealth and privilege of individual commissioners. In the short time they "serve" themselves or the special interests (outfitters/cattlemen) they represent. In reality special interests are the only ones who have any say with what the commission does. Leaves us resident hunters with the shortest of any resident stick... Also yes I know the process well enough to walk away from it - Google Robert Bray for a good read....

But I digress and believe that otc elk needs to go the way of the dodo. Been sayin it for years make all elk draw only all units, use your points when ever you hunt anything, leftover, lo, cow, calf, tag soup - anything! Make it a straight 80 - 20 split of all draws and it would only take a few years to make colorado the best elk hunting state in the west. Opportunity would still be there for residents as well as nr who wanted to play the game.. Now with hunters who want their cake and eat it too while hunting elk and getting a point - as well as a very corrupt/self serving commission - we get what we get. Also the latest round of "comments" is laughable or well send in your "comments" but if you would have burned your blood and tears comments in the fireplace at at least you would get warm. Or the comission/cpw does not even look at the comments or care about what you have to say our what would be best unless it directly aligns with their special interest (for the cpw it is $$$$) or personnel agenda.

I also agree that colorado elk is not that good there are better states and if I were looking at antlers I would look at montana, wyo, or idaho. Yea colorado otc has gotten to that point. With that said I have gotten a elk 4 of the last 5 with this year my only tag soup year and that was due to a injury and 200" unicorn with a 30 inside - yes inside - spread that took a bit of time.. My wife has had a rougher go of it with only 2 elk in the past 4 seasons (one her first was a 350"+ bull, but she missed a 360 bull last year 4x, and opened a restaurant this year so could not hunt)...

But us greenies do have quite the flip side to that coin and that is unarguably the best mule deer hunting anywhere in the world for a resident. Someone said another 300" maybe 350" buck colorado threw this year I believe that it is the 3rd such buck since any other state put anything other than a gov tag on a buck close to that size.. The bucks I hunted this year were mind boggling or passing on a couple in the 200 class well yea that is rough boys. It will be awhile before I shoot a "dink" or anything below 195"... In reality it is getting hard for me to hunt any other state even the fabled unit g in wyo where honestly a real 180" buck is a very "big buck" these days.

So I guess Co elk is a give and take just like life. I can hunt/scout from my own bed and from what I have seen time and effort can, will, and does make up for a less than desirable otc elk situation. Now if I were driving 1500 miles and only had a week to get it done (I spend 2x times that scouting alone for a hunt) yea I would look at another state until co gets its elk figured out.

 

[Alabama]

No secret that Colorado CPW sees residents as a "inconvenience" and sees NR as a "atm machine".. The make up of our Commission is a microcosm of todays politics - or american privilege where the goal is not to serve or about the hunters, animals, or anyone else for that matter but rather to deepen the wealth and privilege of individual commissioners. In the short time they "serve" themselves or the special interests (outfitters/cattlemen) they represent. In reality special interests are the only ones who have any say with what the commission does. Leaves us resident hunters with the shortest of any resident stick... Also yes I know the process well enough to walk away from it - Google Robert Bray for a good read....

But I digress and believe that otc elk needs to go the way of the dodo. Been sayin it for years make all elk draw only all units, use your points when ever you hunt anything, leftover, lo, cow, calf, tag soup - anything! Make it a straight 80 - 20 split of all draws and it would only take a few years to make colorado the best elk hunting state in the west. Opportunity would still be there for residents as well as nr who wanted to play the game.. Now with hunters who want their cake and eat it too while hunting elk and getting a point - as well as a very corrupt/self serving commission - we get what we get. Also the latest round of "comments" is laughable or well send in your "comments" but if you would have burned your blood and tears comments in the fireplace at at least you would get warm. Or the comission/cpw does not even look at the comments or care about what you have to say our what would be best unless it directly aligns with their special interest (for the cpw it is $$$$) or personnel agenda.

I also agree that colorado elk is not that good there are better states and if I were looking at antlers I would look at montana, wyo, or idaho. Yea colorado otc has gotten to that point. With that said I have gotten a elk 4 of the last 5 with this year my only tag soup year and that was due to a injury and 200" unicorn with a 30 inside - yes inside - spread that took a bit of time.. My wife has had a rougher go of it with only 2 elk in the past 4 seasons (one her first was a 350"+ bull, but she missed a 360 bull last year 4x, and opened a restaurant this year so could not hunt)...

But us greenies do have quite the flip side to that coin and that is unarguably the best mule deer hunting anywhere in the world for a resident. Someone said another 300" maybe 350" buck colorado threw this year I believe that it is the 3rd such buck since any other state put anything other than a gov tag on a buck close to that size.. The bucks I hunted this year were mind boggling or passing on a couple in the 200 class well yea that is rough boys. It will be awhile before I shoot a "dink" or anything below 195"... In reality it is getting hard for me to hunt any other state even the fabled unit g in wyo where honestly a real 180" buck is a very "big buck" these days.

So I guess Co elk is a give and take just like life. I can hunt/scout from my own bed and from what I have seen time and effort can, will, and does make up for a less than desirable otc elk situation. Now if I were driving 1500 miles and only had a week to get it done (I spend 2x times that scouting alone for a hunt) yea I would look at another state until co gets its elk figured out.

Can I be your new best friend? I love those dink 195" bucks, I might even lower myself to those cull 185" bucks. I guess I'm just weird like that!

Seriously though great post. Every state has it's high points and it's struggles. It looks like CO could see how much the deer hunting improved going to limited entry only to do the same with elk. Like others have said, follow the money. OTC tags cost just as much as LE tags.

 

[ColoradoV]

Haha thx and I was just trying to make the point you did and that is that elk in Co would benefit largely from going to draw only. I bang that drum as it is my belief every time this comes up but it is also my belief I will be banging away for awhile lol.

As the wife recently reminded me of I spent right at 20 nights out scouting this past year for deer lol.

In that time I saw what I believe were 3 - 200" bucks in the wild - 2 were killed for sure and were over 200 and the other I hunted was rumored to wounded after it got shot at muzzy but never found.... In that time I looked over right at 300 bucks in about 10 units or unit blocks. Every big buck I found had a hunter - hunter w guide or multiple hunters on it by archery opener. With the way the high country gets covered now it is the new reality.

Now on to my point - elk - in all my years of looking all over this state I maybe - maybe have seen a single 400" bull on the hoof and it was in a limited unit. I know a couple get killed each year but take away private and they basically dont exist. The elk in otc units are getting pounded for months at a time and it shows.

 

[JimP]

You also have to remember that Colorado didn't go to a unit by unit draw until there was huge winter die off back in the mid 90's. If that hadn't happened it is likely that most of the state would still be OTC.

 

[HuskyMusky]

I loved the quote I heard once, about Colorado elk hunting...

"We don't have Elk in CO, we have men dressed in Orange hunting Elk..."

Haha thx and I was just trying to make the point you did and that is that elk in Co would benefit largely from going to draw only. I bang that drum as it is my belief every time this comes up but it is also my belief I will be banging away for awhile lol.

As the wife recently reminded me of I spent right at 20 nights out scouting this past year for deer lol.

In that time I saw what I believe were 3 - 200" bucks in the wild - 2 were killed for sure and were over 200 and the other I hunted was rumored to wounded after it got shot at muzzy but never found.... In that time I looked over right at 300 bucks in about 10 units or unit blocks. Every big buck I found had a hunter - hunter w guide or multiple hunters on it by archery opener. With the way the high country gets covered now it is the new reality.

Now on to my point - elk - in all my years of looking all over this state I maybe - maybe have seen a single 400" bull on the hoof and it was in a limited unit. I know a couple get killed each year but take away private and they basically dont exist. The elk in otc units are getting pounded for months at a time and it shows.

 

[kstitz]

As residents we got screwed again when they changed the application process to allow non residents to apply without paying the tag fee. Many of units that could be drawn on a second choice or first choice with no points now require a point or 2 to draw.

I wish they would implement a system similar to WY, where residents are guaranteed a general tag & the limited draw units are a lottery. For non residents everything would be a point system draw even the general tag.

 

[BKC]

As residents we got screwed again when they changed the application process to allow non residents to apply without paying the tag fee. Many of units that could be drawn on a second choice or first choice with no points now require a point or 2 to draw.

I wish they would implement a system similar to WY, where residents are guaranteed a general tag & the limited draw units are a lottery. For non residents everything would be a point system draw even the general tag.

I have been pouring over the regs and the draws from previous years. Last year, when you didn't have to send in $ with you app, they got so many more non res. to apply. It is now almost impossible to find that little hidden gem of a unit on a 2nd choice.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

But us greenies do have quite the flip side to that coin and that is unarguably the best mule deer hunting anywhere in the world for a resident. Someone said another 300" maybe 350" buck colorado threw this year I believe that it is the 3rd such buck since any other state put anything other than a gov tag on a buck close to that size.. The bucks I hunted this year were mind boggling or passing on a couple in the 200 class well yea that is rough boys. It will be awhile before I shoot a "dink" or anything below 195"... In reality it is getting hard for me to hunt any other state even the fabled unit g in wyo where honestly a real 180" buck is a very "big buck" these days.

So I guess Co elk is a give and take just like life. I can hunt/scout from my own bed and from what I have seen time and effort can, will, and does make up for a less than desirable otc elk situation. Now if I were driving 1500 miles and only had a week to get it done (I spend 2x times that scouting alone for a hunt) yea I would look at another state until co gets its elk figured out.

Colorado is a pretty good deer hunting state for residents because there are not bunch of OTC tags available but the residents still have gotten screwed out of the landowner tag program, which tags tags away from residents. I agree on trophy quality as well, but not opportunity to hunt.

Once again it's a numbers game.
Wyoming has 500k residents and 350k Mule deer. 1.4 people per deer
Montana has 1 million residents and 350k mule deer. 2.8 people per deer
Colorado has 6 million residents and about 400k mule deer. 15 people per deer.

So even if we are absolutely unrealistic and say that all 500k residents in Wyoming hunt deer, and only 1 in 10 Colorado residents hunt deer, that still leaves more deer hunters in Colorado at 600k. And we all know that is completely unrealistic but shows how the numbers work out.

So based on numbers clearly the opportunity for resident hunters to deer hunt is much better outside Colorado they do have great trophy quality in Colorado.

I personally would take a general Montana deer tag that is good for several months over any Colorado deer tag that can be had with 0 points as a resident. And the Colorado tag is only good for a few days.

Which would you rather have, Montana general deer, Wyoming general deer, or any 0 preference point or second choice Colorado deer tag?

 

[swampokie]

Colorado is a pretty good deer hunting state for residents because there are not bunch of OTC tags available but the residents still have gotten screwed out of the landowner tag program, which tags tags away from residents. I agree on trophy quality as well, but not opportunity to hunt.

Once again it's a numbers game.
Wyoming has 500k residents and 350k Mule deer. 1.4 people per deer
Montana has 1 million residents and 350k mule deer. 2.8 people per deer
Colorado has 6 million residents and about 400k mule deer. 15 people per deer.

So even if we are absolutely unrealistic and say that all 500k residents in Wyoming hunt deer, and only 1 in 10 Colorado residents hunt deer, that still leaves more deer hunters in Colorado at 600k. And we all know that is completely unrealistic but shows how the numbers work out.

So based on numbers clearly the opportunity for resident hunters to deer hunt is much better outside Colorado they do have great trophy quality in Colorado.

I personally would take a general Montana deer tag that is good for several months over any Colorado deer tag that can be had with 0 points as a resident. And the Colorado tag is only good for a few days.

Which would you rather have, Montana general deer, Wyoming general deer, or any 0 preference point or second choice Colorado deer tag?

I bet the percentage that hunt is way higher in Wyoming and montana tho. That being said im sure there are more hunters in Colorado with a few more deer