Why OTC hunting has ruined CO

[JimP]

I don't think that you can go by the number of vehicles that go past you headed north or south for a accurate number for who is hunting where. States like Wyoming can offer a lot more resident opportunities just because of it's population which is around 574 thousand compared to Colorado's 5.7 million. Montana cracks the million mark with a population of 1.1 million. So both Montana and Wyoming can offer a lot more hunting opportunities to the residents than Colorado can.

You also have to look at the length of the seasons for elk and deer. Yes, here in Colorado you can only hunt for a little over a week for each season except for archery but the elk season runs from the first of October through the middle of November and some hunts continuing into January of the following year. They do this to accommodate the larger number of hunters that they have that are chasing elk.

Deer in Colorado is a little bit shorter than the elk hunts but there are hunters out chasing them for a solid month and I am sure that the number of deer hunters in Colorado is a lot greater than what the number are in Wyoming or Montana.

I would also say that most of the hunters that you are seeing traveling to Wyoming/Montana are headed that way for antelope and not deer and elk. However I will grant you that hunters will head north for both deer and elk when they can draw the tags for them.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

I do agree that hunting in Wyoming is better for some species.....one in particular: Antelope.

Not so with Deer. I have max points for deer in Wy and have trouble getting a tag for the unit I want to hunt (even a Special tag!). Here in Colorado I can hunt units I want to hunt (in the season I want) with very few points. The units I hunt (in the season I want) take a lot of points for NRs take, usually 12 to 15.

I am very selective on elk, I won't hunt in otc seasons. I usually can get a tag every year...again being pretty selective on the units I like. My experience in Wyoming is not great on NR tags. I had max point for 10 years and couldn't get a tag for the units I wanted, so I finally used them a couple of years ago on a unit I really didn't want, but was successful anyway. I don't apply anymore for elk.

When I get the deer tag I want (probably in 2019), I won't be buying any more. The only hunt in Wyoming I'll be doing in the future is Antelope.

If you do your research and spend time in the field scouting, it is not hard to find good units that you can draw a tag pretty regularly. Recent changes by CP & W in the way we now apply for tags could change that in the future, only time will tell.

Every state has extremely sought after tags that nobody can draw. Most western states have units with great trophy potential but the real difference are the "General" or "OTC" opportunities that most residents utilize.
Would you rather have?
A- General Montana Elk
B- General Wyoming Elk
C- OTC Colorado.

It's really just a numbers game. If Wyoming had 6 million residents and Colorado had 600k the better hunting would be in Colorado. So to start with you have a 10 to 1 disadvantage drawing tags as a Colorado resident based on population 6m vs 600k. Then take out the transferable landowner tags in Colorado from the pool of tags available combined with much of the state being OTC and its' easy to see how CO residents get the short end of the stick. Then compare the length of the season for those general tags and it becomes painfully obvious how limited the opportunities are between states like Colorado vs Montana and Wyoming. Guys in Colorado get to hunt a week, while in MT/WY they hunt from Sept - Oct/Nov months on a general tag with much less pressure.

It really is interesting to look at the differences in how each state manages herds and distributes tags. When you go to the East to see it as well as states like Kansas and South Dakota do things much differently than Oklahoma or Nebraska. Thus Kansas and South Dakota have better resident hunting opportunities than NE or OK.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

I don't think that you can go by the number of vehicles that go past you headed north or south for a accurate number for who is hunting where. States like Wyoming can offer a lot more resident opportunities just because of it's population which is around 574 thousand compared to Colorado's 5.7 million. Montana cracks the million mark with a population of 1.1 million. So both Montana and Wyoming can offer a lot more hunting opportunities to the residents than Colorado can.

You also have to look at the length of the seasons for elk and deer. Yes, here in Colorado you can only hunt for a little over a week for each season except for archery but the elk season runs from the first of October through the middle of November and some hunts continuing into January of the following year. They do this to accommodate the larger number of hunters that they have that are chasing elk.

Deer in Colorado is a little bit shorter than the elk hunts but there are hunters out chasing them for a solid month and I am sure that the number of deer hunters in Colorado is a lot greater than what the number are in Wyoming or Montana.

I would also say that most of the hunters that you are seeing traveling to Wyoming/Montana are headed that way for antelope and not deer and elk. However I will grant you that hunters will head north for both deer and elk when they can draw the tags for them.

Yep, just a numbers game. With 10x more residents it's easy to see how there is more opportunity in low population states compared to high population states. Just imagine how good Colorado would be if they had 600k residents and no transferable landowner tags or OTC elk tags for NR's. Would be amazing.

Season length is also a huge advantage for WY and MT vs 1 week in CO. My cow elk tag was good from August - January for example. General tags in MT and WY are for 6-12 weeks vs 1 week in CO.

I don't blame CO residents to taking advantage of WY. The crowds in CO are mind boggling no matter where you go which is why there is an endless line of cars from CO headed to WY every weekend. Right now it's snowmobilers headed for the snowies, in the summer they head for places like Glendo and Curt Gowdy to get away from tourist in CO, in the fall the hunters show up from Colorado. It's quite funny to watch on Friday nights and Saturday mornings as they all gather in WY. Trucks pulling campers, boats, sleds, etc.. But the same is true for WY folks headed to Colorado, there just aren't very many and we are not coming to hunt or recreate. We come to Colorado to shop, eat, go to broncos/rockies games, etc...

Entertainment/Shopping/etc = Colorado had major advantages due to population
Hunting and recreating = Wyoming and Montana have major advantages due to population

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

Yeah I do based upon herd health, hunter opportunity, public land available and overall experience.

I'm not surprised they complain.....any resident in Colorado that is hunting OTC...is completely missing the boat IMO.

287 is heavy with Colorado traffic due to the hunters and U Dub....everyone knows its cheaper to pay out of state fees up there than here...so I suspect a lot of traffic is from that also. Count me in as one of those plates on 287 with a lot of miles on it.

No one from WYO should come to CO to antelope hunt.....that's a given. Now elk hunting different story. Plenty of units to horn or meat hunt in every year with some of those being awesome 1st rifle tags on the leftover list. Just depends how hard people want to work for them. Most of our premium units have great quad, truck access so thats why they get all the attention and point creep.

I agree with your last statement for deer and antelope.

To each his own. As long as its legal I support it, regardless of the state. Thanks for the discussion.

This entire thread is about hunters complaining about the elk hunting in Colorado, only a couple posters including yourself are suggesting the elk hunting in CO is good compared to other western states.

Herd health- Maybe CO has an advantage but we are over objective in much of Wyoming as well.
R Hunter opportunity - MT and WY blow Colorado away simply based on numbers. Too many residents just like AZ, CA, NV.
Public land available - Advantage WY and MT as although CO has lots of public land, they also have lots of hunters so pressure is higher.
Overall Experience = Success rates are much higher on a MT or WY general tag than OTC Colorado elk tag. Pressure is also much higher in CO. Advantage WY and MT.

The vehicles I am referring to are the ones pulling campers, boats, sleds, 4 wheelers that are thick on Friday evenings and Saturday mornings. There is a pile of them every weekend. I do agree that there are lots of CO kids who end up at UW. As mentioned lots of WY folks go to CO to shop, eat, go to pro games, etc.. but not to hunt.

So what elk units do you think a hunter from WY would be interested in paying out of state fees to hunt?
Why would a WY resident go to CO to meat hunt? You think there are better cow hunting opportunities for a NR in CO than a R in WY??

 

[Bonecollector]

I am from Ohio, so I'm a nonres to all the western states (obviously). If I were to move west, I'd seriously consider WY, MO, & Idaho as they are better resident options. However, if a job took me to Co, I'd "deal" with it. ;-)

I always thought Idaho would be good due to the fact many easterners stop driving after they hit Colorado or eastern WY. lol
Western WY and Montana gets thinner on easterners visiting. Idaho is further yet.

All good discussion guys.

 

[JimP]

There are a number of units where you can buy a OTC elk tag and hope to bring home a 350+ bull. But don't expect to drive out to one of them and just shoot one. A couple of the units are 31 and 62. When I had my muzzle loader elk tag for unit 61 that I cashed in 17 points for I saw the biggest elk in the OTC unit 62 right next door. Also some of the units further south that are OTC hold good bulls.

As for Idaho they are growing up now. The folks from Oregon and California have discovered it and are moving there. Same with Montana, but in Montana it is the ones with the big bucks that are going up there and buying ranches and locking the common person out.

 

[Slugz]

Correct, I'm off topic. This is about OTC hunting. I was making comparisons as a resident and my limited elk tag I draw every year, and my limited cow tags I get off the leftover every year.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

Correct, I'm off topic. This is about OTC hunting. I was making comparisons as a resident and my limited elk tag I draw every year, and my limited cow tags I get off the leftover every year.

It's hard to really make a fair comparison since WY and MT don't do OTC elk tags for NR's. But that is also what some seem to think is the issue.

For people in WY and MT the general tag is what they use as a second choice, much the same way Colorado OTC tags are second choices for residents.

Much of the same reasons still apply to limited entry elk tags in Montana/Wyoming IMO but if you believe limited entry elk hunting is better for Colorado residents than others so be it.

From Montana to New Mexico IMO
1. I tend to think that Montana has a slight edge with their long lasting deer/elk tags that are good from Sept - Nov and about 1 million residents to compete with. They also have really good opportunities for hunting other species from small game to the biggest sheep in the world and great whitetails.
2. Wyoming also has very generous seasons for residents from general to limited entry units. Only 600k residents to compete with for tags makes tags much easier to obtain than states with millions in population.
3. New Mexico has great trophy opportunities for many species but with 2 million residents it's a little more competetive than low population states. For a horn hunter New Mexico might be at the top.
4. Colorado has lots of elk but with much of the state as OTC for R's and NR's and 6 million residents competing for the tags available after the landowners take their huge cut it's mathematically difficult to see how that is the best opportunity. Also why you hear stories of residents waiting 20+ years to hunt a good but not great elk unit while people in New Mexico, Wyoming, and Montana get those type of tags every 5-10 years.

If you truly take emotion out of it population combined with NR tag allotment pretty much determines the opportunity for Residents to hunt most Western States. Alaska tops the list by a wide margin because of population and opportunity. California is at the opposite end of the spectrum due to population with other highly populated states such as Arizona and Washington next. Then look at which states have the worst tag policies for resident hunters and places like Utah and Colorado are among the worst about selling tags to the highest bidder and selling a large % of tags to NR's, those come out of the pool of tags available to Residents in many cases. Once you take tags from the resident pool it just makes residents wait that much longer to draw. Combine that with states who have millions in population and it's a tough row to hoe for resident hunters.
CA = 39 million residents
AZ = 7
CO = 6
WA =7.5
OR = 4
NV = 3
NM = 2
ID = 2
MT = 1
WY = 600k
AK = 700k

 

[Slugz]

Although off topic I guess my point was that as a resident why would anyone OTC hunt in Colorado. I have 1 -4 choices for my 1st draw then a leftover list that has a ton of tags on it. I'm not a point saver though as I hunt every year multiple times for elk in multiple seasons. Oh well. Im happy here��

 

[JimP]

Hunting OTC and leftovers is great but it is getting to the point that leftovers are getting hard to come by. I know that a few of the units that I used to be able to pick up a tag in every year all the elk tags both bull and cow are now gone in the first go around.

But you can be a point hog and still hunt every year if you can get what you want off of the leftovers. When I was building both deer and elk points I hunted both deer and elk every year until I cashed in 14 points on my deer and a couple of years later when I cashed in my 17 points on a elk hunt. And now for some reason I am building antelope points again after cashing in 14. It is a sickness, but once I cash in the antelope points here in Colorado I am done with that. Hopefully I can draw my Wyoming antelope tag for 2019 and I won't have to worry about those points either. Then there is just Wyoming deer, Utah antelope and bison.

I tell ya it is a sickness. Hi my name is Jim and I have a problem.

 

[Slugz]

Hunting OTC and leftovers is great but it is getting to the point that leftovers are getting hard to come by. I know that a few of the units that I used to be able to pick up a tag in every year all the elk tags both bull and cow are now gone in the first go around.

But you can be a point hog and still hunt every year if you can get what you want off of the leftovers. When I was building both deer and elk points I hunted both deer and elk every year until I cashed in 14 points on my deer and a couple of years later when I cashed in my 17 points on a elk hunt. And now for some reason I am building antelope points again after cashing in 14. It is a sickness, but once I cash in the antelope points here in Colorado I am done with that. Hopefully I can draw my Wyoming antelope tag for 2019 and I won't have to worry about those points either. Then there is just Wyoming deer, Utah antelope and bison.

I tell ya it is a sickness. Hi my name is Jim and I have a problem.

I agree as the management in each EAU changes based upon herd data the tags go up and down. It forces us all to have a plan A, B and C and put in the time during the off season to confirm or change our plans while scouting. For someone who likes to archery hunt like myself for elk and deer every year, I have no problem executing my plan and rarely get to plan B.

 

[Roundball]

Sounds like to me,tags should be cut. What about sitting out for 1year if you are successful? I'm sure that would go over good.Non-residents pay way too much in my opinion.Every state may be in deep shit in another 10 years or so if young hunters keep declining. I can't afford to hunt every year. Maybe it should be like Idaho-Draw. No points. Just some ideas. Even Wy. is starting to see point creep now. Roundball

 

[stumpy waters]

I am still trying to figure this thread out. What is the bottom line issue? There are too many hunters and I am not able to kill something?

If tags are cut in half and the success rate doubles, what has changed? Other than the fact that only half as many people got to hunt? Because the actually kill numbers will be the same and most likely it will be the exact same hunters filling tags either way.

 

[youngbuck2]

Im thinking with the recent changes to the 2019 seasons, the 2/3 seasons are going to get even more crowded. Adding another 80 bucks to the overall cost of the tag that you may or may not get drawn for is going to push a lot of the 1/4 season hunters to OTC seasons I think.

 

[Roundball]

We all better hope and pray more for more sound wildlife policys. Liberals and non-hunters making unimformed decisions.Anti's are in places they need not be!!!! I completely agree with Guy's editorial on Co.!; Ca.;Wa.;Oregon; even Mt. ...O.M.G.

 

[Roundball]

Why couldn't wildlife mgt. students do or help with check stations for internships or credits?

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

I am still trying to figure this thread out. What is the bottom line issue? .

Colorado has too many residents applying for the non OTC tags and people keep moving to CO in staggering numbers so the problem is getting worse.

Colorado residents lose too many tags to the landowner tag program which has hurt the hunting opportunity for residents.

Colorado issues too many OTC tags available to NR's which also hurts resident hunting opportunity.

So the real issue is that in spite of huge numbers of elk there are somewhat limited opportunities for residents to draw good tags on a regular basis, but the department is funded by NR hunters so you can't sell less tags to them without feeling the financial hit.

 

[stumpy waters]

Colorado has too many residents applying for the non OTC tags and people keep moving to CO in staggering numbers so the problem is getting worse.

Colorado residents lose too many tags to the landowner tag program which has hurt the hunting opportunity for residents.

Colorado issues too many OTC tags available to NR's which also hurts resident hunting opportunity.

So the real issue is that in spite of huge numbers of elk there are somewhat limited opportunities for residents to draw good tags on a regular basis, but the department is funded by NR hunters so you can't sell less tags to them without feeling the financial hit.

Sounds like residents should just pay the same as non-residents then they would not have any incentive to take tags away from residents for non-residents and more residents can get a -good tag.

 

[RICMIC]

Sounds like residents should just pay the same as non-residents then they would not have any incentive to take tags away from residents for non-residents and more residents can get a -good tag.

Good luck with getting that through the legislature. They can double NR tag prices, but try to raise resident tag by even $10 and you can hear the howl all the way to the east coast.

 

[stumpy waters]

Good luck with getting that through the legislature. They can double NR tag prices, but try to raise resident tag by even $10 and you can hear the howl all the way to the east coast.

LOL well maybe the old saying still holds true - you get what you pay for?