Preference Point Systems- have we gone too far?

[mntnguide]

Idaho has it right..hope it never changes...Apply for elk,deer, antelope OR one of the big 3(sheep, moose, goat)...keeps application numbers down and no preference points need ever be instituted hopefully..Also you are require to wait out a season or two if you draw a first choice bull or buck tag....I also hope Wyoming stays as is for residents, No preference points for elk, deer, pronghorn. . And we dont have to share our wilderness with the dirty nasty Non-Res unless they have guides.. I couldnt resist! haha

 

[Triple BB]

You might change your mind if you were like me with 22 points in Nevada for deer, and yet there is not a tag in the state I can apply for and know I will draw.

The answer is to make 40% of the tags still be available through random draw. Then you'd be eligible ever year.

 

[Triple BB]

The best and fairest draw system would be no points at all.

I've drawn four hard to draw bull elk tags in a row. Most of my friends would disagree with you. I've also drawn 6 antelope tags in 8 years for harder than average to draw areas.

I think the answer is a mandatory waiting period. You could still apply for leftover tags and get a general license. However I'd have no problem with a bonus point system where a certain percent of the tags went random draw. That part takes out the whiners who say the kids can never draw a license.

 

[mntnguide]

I've drawn four hard to draw bull elk tags in a row. Most of my friends would disagree with you. I've also drawn 6 antelope tags in 8 years for harder than average to draw areas.

I think the answer is a mandatory waiting period. You could still apply for leftover tags and get a general license. However I'd have no problem with a bonus point system where a certain percent of the tags went random draw. That part takes out the whiners who say the kids can never draw a license.

I like the mandatory waiting period idea...Like in Idaho...IF you drew a First choice elk,deer, antelope tag...You have to wait a season before applying again. I think it would change things pretty good for resident draws. And really, for a state like WY, Im extremely HAPPY with a general tag, i put in for hard to draw hunts because I like to see new country and explore, but I know where i can hunt every year and will see mature bulls on a general tag, so im happy hunting elk with either tag in my pocket.

 

[shootbrownelk]

I've drawn four hard to draw bull elk tags in a row. Most of my friends would disagree with you. I've also drawn 6 antelope tags in 8 years for harder than average to draw areas.

I think the answer is a mandatory waiting period. You could still apply for leftover tags and get a general license. However I'd have no problem with a bonus point system where a certain percent of the tags went random draw. That part takes out the whiners who say the kids can never draw a license.

I'm with you on the mandatory waiting period for hard to draw tags. You sure sound like you're lucky drawing hard to get tags. I'm not.

 

[highplainsdrifter]

This is a complex issue, and I am somewhat undecided about the best solution. But I am leaning toward no preference point system with a completely random draw. My wife and I have come out on the short end of the preference point system at least twice in the past.

First example: My wife started applying for Colorado elk preference points many years ago with an eye on Unit 201 in the NW part of the state. When she first applied, it took about 10 points. Somewhere along the line, Colorado reduced the portion of licenses that went to nonresidents and it now takes 26 preference points for a nonresident in Unit 201. Last year she applied with 25 points and did not get drawn. Talk about preference point creep! She would never have started to accumulate points if she knew at the beginning it was going to take this many years.

Second example: I spent quite a few years trying to draw a moose tag in Wyoming before there were preference points (but there was a rule that if you drew a moose license, you had to wait five years before you could apply again). Finally, I drew a license and three months after the hunt the legislature instituted the current moose preference point system. But they retained the rule that you had to wait five years before applying again. Therefore, I was 5 preference points behind everyone else before I could start accumulating preference points again. As a result, I will probably never hunt bull moose in Wyoming again (I could draw a cow tag).

So I am leaning toward a completely random draw...with perhaps some required wait times before applying again after you draw a license for the more rare species. Maybe 5 years for moose, 10 years for sheep, lifetime for goat.

It goes almost without saying, there should be no specialty tags where people can pay more to have a better chance at drawing.

 

[Fink]

Second example: I spent quite a few years trying to draw a moose tag in Wyoming before there were preference points (but there was a rule that if you drew a moose license, you had to wait five years before you could apply again). Finally, I drew a license and three months after the hunt the legislature instituted the current moose preference point system. But they retained the rule that you had to wait five years before applying again. Therefore, I was 5 preference points behind everyone else before I could start accumulating preference points again. As a result, I will probably never hunt bull moose in Wyoming again (I could draw a cow tag).

At least the reason you were 5 points behind, is because you were hunting moose, and not because you just didnt happen to be old enough to get in on the ground floor.

 

[highplainsdrifter]

At least the reason you were 5 points behind, is because you were hunting moose, and not because you just didnt happen to be old enough to get in on the ground floor.

That is true. I gather from your comment, that you know someone who wasn't old enough. The lesson learned here is that rules change over time. All preference point systems outline a preferential procedure for treating people who have applied multiple times. What they don't tell you is that some/many of the other rules might change including the portion of licenses that are allocated to nonresidents, the cost of purchasing preference points, the age at which you can start applying for preference points, wait times before applying again, the cost of the tag itself, etc.

When you get a preference point all you can be sure of is that you will have an advantage over someone with less preference points sometime in the future. You have no idea how the rules might change during the period you are accumulating points. During this period, you are spending considerable time and money purchasing preference points in a system that is continually changing its rules.

It is a moving target subject to the whims of the legislature and game and fish commission in each state.

 

[JohnyRingo]

Yes, drawing 4 times in 15 years is approximately 25%, but 15 years ago the odds were 65%. If you average those two odds together over that period of time, you would get 45%. That would equate to about 7 or 8 tags over that period of time that I would have drawn if I experienced the mathematical odds. I drew 4 times and I know plenty of people who have drawn 10-12 times over that period of time.

In terms of the odds with a 1 year waiting period, here is an example. If there are 100 tags allotted in an area with 300 applicants, the odds of drawing are 33%. If you have a 1 year waiting period, those 100 people who drew the year before have to sit out, then you have 200 people applying for 100 permits, then the odds go to 50%. That is enough of an increase to validate doing the waiting period. Plus, it never guarantees a permit and it still allows kids and new people to the sport and new people to the state to draw. Again, there is no perfect solution to the application process. I am just kicking an idea around.

 

[WY ME]

Second example: I spent quite a few years trying to draw a moose tag in Wyoming before there were preference points (but there was a rule that if you drew a moose license, you had to wait five years before you could apply again). Finally, I drew a license and three months after the hunt the legislature instituted the current moose preference point system. But they retained the rule that you had to wait five years before applying again. Therefore, I was 5 preference points behind everyone else before I could start accumulating preference points again. As a result, I will probably never hunt bull moose in Wyoming again (I could draw a cow tag).

I have almost the same exact story as I drew my first moose tag in '93. Wyoming did not grandfather folks like us in when the new points system was enacted. Had I drawn my moose tag a few years earlier I could have gotten on the ground floor with points. But eventually I did draw another tag with points about 6 or 8 years ago. I think the points system is about right for moose but not so much for sheep. If, like Idaho, we could only apply for one premium tag or one set of points each year I think it would level the playing field a bit and we could hunt our chosen species sooner.

 

[bigsky2]

I am not a fan of preference point systems at all. I think bonus point systems are the best solution, so everyone has a chance to draw every year but the people that have been playing the game longer have a little better chance of drawing (in theory). I also wouldn't be opposed to having to wait a year to apply again after drawing a deer or elk tag. I also think moose, sheep, and goat tags should be once in a lifetime tags in all states. There's so many people applying for those tags that I don't think its fair for people to be able to draw them more than once.

The sad thing is, how do you change the system in a place like Colorado where there's people with 25 years invested into drawing an elk tag? There would be a lot of pissed off people if the state decided to all of the sudden go to a random draw. Maybe if they said they would turn their 25 preference points into bonus points it might help lessen the pain a little.

 

[mgorm16640]

I think Oregon has a pretty straightforward approach to this. The landowner has to hunt their own property, only half of the tags can be transferred to non-family members, and the number of tags are issued based on the size of the property.

I think that is a great idea.

 

[WY ME]

I think that is a great idea.

I'd have to disagree and feel this is a really bad idea, at least in Wyoming.

Yes the landowner should only be able to hunt their own land with a landowner tag, but if they can transfer (another word for sell, sell, sell) these tags we'll have zero tags left for the draw. All the ranchers including the non-hunting ranchers will now get into the game of receiving landowner tags for the sole purpose of selling them to the highest bidder. It will be strictly a business decision on their part and some limited quota areas will become devoid of tags for the general public.

 

[nv-hunter]

I'd have to disagree and feel this is a really bad idea, at least in Wyoming.

Yes the landowner should only be able to hunt their own land with a landowner tag, but if they can transfer (another word for sell, sell, sell) these tags we'll have zero tags left for the draw. All the ranchers including the non-hunting ranchers will now get into the game of receiving landowner tags for the sole purpose of selling them to the highest bidder. It will be strictly a business decision on their part and some limited quota areas will become devoid of tags for the general public.

I think the land owner tags in Or. are separate from what's in the draw. Sure beats Nevada where the landowner tag is good for the whole unit and those guys will end up on public land.

MM what you must be super picky about your units if you haven't drawn a Nevada deer tag in 22 years. At this point I would be picky also but 10 years ago I'd have picked 5 good units and drawn one of them

 

[WY ME]

I think the land owner tags in Or. are separate from what's in the draw. Sure beats Nevada where the landowner tag is good for the whole unit and those guys will end up on public land.

Nevada sounds similar to WY where the landowner tags are good for the entire area.

 

[RLJ]

Seems like the system ought to collapse in on itself like a black hole at some point. If you are significantly behind in a premium hunt, why do you bother starting? If a 14 year starts out 20 points behind, and point creep is extending that every year, they will be 50 or 60 years old before they draw, and they might have 2 or 3K invested just in points payments. If the points can't turn over at least every 5 or 10 years, I don't know why rational people play the game.

 

[Zim]

Seems like the system ought to collapse in on itself like a black hole at some point.

Haha yes this is the best anology. Black hole. I am in the 20 point neighborhood for several states and praying I get to cash some of these for my target hunts while I still have some health, and before each comes up with some point cheapening scam like AZ did this year.

 

[300bee]

I can't disagree with that.

I agree with this post and your earlier post wholeheartedly!

 

[300bee]

WE can always do something in WY politically. Us (the residents) and the cattleman are pretty much the only entities the G&F is deathly afraid of in mass. Maybe, the outfitters, but that is getting less and less each year. I just don't think I am a big fan of a resident preference point system though. As we have seen with this post, there is a point where the only true fair draw is a random draw, and that's what we have now in Wyoming and I think it works pretty well mostly because the supply of tags is so big. With that said, the only one that really gripes me as a resident, is the sheep and moose. I think they should all (sheep, moose, goat and bison) be once in a lifetime tags, if you punch them. If you don't fill your tag you can wait out the waiting period and go again. The way it is now, I know of a lady in WY that has had five sheep tags in her lifetime. That is total crap in my opinion. And she doesn't even really care about hunting, but her husband is nuts about it. Once you kill a ram in Wyoming that should be your sheep and your done. Start applying in MT or CO.

Just my two cents.

G-

Guy I agree with you wholeheartedly!
Also agree with your post prior to this one.

 

[Zim]

She sounds like a real peach.

From one extreme to the other. Last week I got remarried in China. My new wife is a school teacher in Sichuan, but will move here in 18 months when she retires. During my trip there the last 4 weeks, she paid for our marriage license fees, photos, wedding reception, 6 day honeymoon to Thailand, all our taxis, buses & bullet train expenses, hotels, and any meals that her relatives didn't cover. She even paid for her own diamond wedding ring! Plus any other misc expenses. Thousands of dollars all together. When I tried to reimburse her, she refused! Her explanation was I could pay for her summer 2016 visit expenses. This way we would not incur any bank or CC transaction fees.

I will definitely, eventually reimburse her, when she allows, but yikes. After 20 years of living with a parasite, this is a shock to my system!