NR Sheep/Goats etc to 10%

[Tim McCoy]

I didn't figure any sort of fallout rate as that's a total crap shoot. Undoubtedly, there would be a bunch of people that would cut their losses in the next couple years, but at the same time we'd see a different application strategy from some of the top point groups flooding the draw as well.

Ergo my thought that a holder of 10+ points may just want to watch for a couple years. But that may end up being just wasted time and $. The guy who does Oregon Tag Draw Percentages has developed an algorithm which takes fall out into consideration. Not perfect, but does address it to a degree. Would not work in WY I suspect because of the likely change in behavior due to the rule change. However, once the dust settles, a similar calculation could give a high confidence years to draw number a few years after any change. I have no idea or inclination to try to develop a formula. But I understand the concept well enough to know there is a glimmer of hope if the rule change drives a major change in draw strategy for enough people. Only other rational strategy I can see, unless you are very near being a top point holder, is for the very young to just outlast the herd.

Very frustrating situation for NR's, should the law change. I am lucky, my family drew a Moose and a Sheep tag in WY last year, so we had planned to be done with WY points for both. I understand WY resident frustration, when a NR can draw a tag easier than a resident in some cases. Were that happening to me, I'd be wanting change.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

As I said, I have no issue with residents getting the lion's share of the tags. Just to distill it, I think the "error" on Wyoming Game and Fish's part was to charge high fees ($100) for the points then change the system. Also realize that Wyoming does NOT give the option to apply without buying a preference point as it does for deer, elk and antelope. It would have been completely different if they had just charged enough to cover their administrative expenses for a point, like they did when they were charging $7 per point, but they clearly profited heavily from the system. To change the system now would likely be considered fraud. I think that is what should be communicated to state representatives by nonresidents. They will obviously vote in favor of their constituents as they should, but also have to fully consider the financial impact.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

I understand this is pretty emotional for many, but the facts still need to be considered. If someone is concerned that a non-resident can draw a trophy tag easier than a resident, consider the number of residents and non-residents in the system who have points.

Residents with sheep points: 10954
Non-residents with sheep points: 8325
Total with sheep points: 19279

Residents are 56.8% of the applicants with points and currently receive 75% of the tags

Residents with moose points: 18426
Non-residents with moose points: 9773
Total with moose points: 28199

Residents are 65.3% of the applicants with points and currently receive 80% of the tags

As you can see, the current structure favors residents. When you see a discrepancy, such as a certain tag is easier for a non-resident to draw, there could be other factors influencing that, for example the unit is wilderness, does not have a "reputation" for trophy bulls, and requires the nonresident hunter to hire an outfitter, so the cost does not justify the investment in the minds of lots of non-resident hunters.

 

[Tim McCoy]

As I said, I have no issue with residents getting the lion's share of the tags. Just to distill it, I think the "error" on Wyoming Game and Fish's part was to charge high fees ($100) for the points then change the system. Also realize that Wyoming does NOT give the option to apply without buying a preference point as it does for deer, elk and antelope. It would have been completely different if they had just charged enough to cover their administrative expenses for a point, like they did when they were charging $7 per point, but they clearly profited heavily from the system. To change the system now would likely be considered fraud. I think that is what should be communicated to state representatives by nonresidents. They will obviously vote in
favor of their constituents as they should, but also have to fully consider the financial impact.

I agree with you. It was the wrong way to go. The jump in PP costs are what led me to estimate
how long before we drew Moose/Sheep and factor in the cost. I decided to stay in, figuring we'd draw in a reasonable time. Annual PP costs for WY are right at $300 a year for Sheep, Moose, Elk, Deer, and Ant., begins to add up fast. If WY had forced you to buy a license to buy low cost PP's, which provides you some value to hunt, they would be on stronger ground, vs a PP system clearly designed to raise revenue in excess of costs. I suspect they found it easier to institute the PP fee increase, vs make a fundamental change in their draw system with a separate license.

Whole mess stinks all around at this point.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

I agree with you. It was the wrong way to go. The jump in PP costs are what led me to estimate
how long before we drew Moose/Sheep and factor in the cost. I decided to stay in, figuring we'd draw in a reasonable time. Annual PP costs for WY are right at $300 a year for Sheep, Moose, Elk, Deer, and Ant., begins to add up fast. If WY had forced you to buy a license to buy low cost PP's, which provides you some value to hunt, they would be on stronger ground, vs a PP system clearly designed to raise revenue in excess of costs. I suspect they found it easier to institute the PP fee increase, vs make a fundamental change in their draw system with a separate license.

Whole mess stinks all around at this point.

Exactly, it is fairly easy to determine the number of tags going to non-residents, how many people are ahead of you and decide if you want to invest in the system being offered. To have that system changed midstream after people buy in is the fundamental problem.

 

[Tim McCoy]

From what I understand, the NR having an easier time to draw a tag is more a unit by unit issue. Especially for Moose, based on the comments I have received from some residents. But I have nothing but that anecdotal evidence. Just an unfortunate mess about to get worse, I hope I am wrong.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

What should be added to the bill is a payout (plus interest) to any nonresident who wants to back out of the system over say the next 3 years. That is the fair and right thing to do if the nonresident tag allocation is reduced. That is taking full responsibility for the change.

Although I drew in 1999 and am back up to 10 points so I would likely elect to take the $750 ($75/year) plus interest.

 

[gonhunting247]

it's definitely a tough situation for guys like me with 12 moose pts.(I dropped out of sheep when they went to the $100 fee, I've been kicking myself for years about that, but now I think I'm glad I did I'll stay in for moose, but as a DIY/non-wilderness hunter I'm in a tough spot point creep-wise I think.
All that said I get both sides of the situation. Hunting is getting crazy expensive and I will definitely be not putting in for longhual trophy tags after I close out a few hunts in states where I have double digit points. I'll go back to hunting opportunity hunts and hunting at home with family and friends almost exclusively. I have found I enjoy over the counter hunts and easy draw (1-5 years) hunts as much or more than the others. It's more about being out hunting with good people and bringing home good meat, than waiting for ever to go. As far as trophy tags maybe I'll just throw an app in no pt. states and states that I'm buying a license already that only charge a minimal app fee!
Not sure what the answer is, but I think most states are on the verge of losing a lot of hunters due to over pricing. The everyday guy won't be able to participate in multiple states soon.
Good luck to all with some tough decisions!

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Make it right for everyone. Give the residents more tags. Offer a payback to nonresidents who paid into the system. That is the most fair thing to do.

 

[dead river]

So i naively started building PPs in Wyoming for MSG 4 yrs ago. It sounds like i may as well pull the plug on that.....

I spent 3 weeks with some natural resource folks in Hungary, Austria and Slovakia last summer. Hunting is way more ingrained in their culture than i ever knew....you eat venison in most restaurants since all game is owned by the Country and you keep the trophy and the govt. gets the meat to distribute to waiting restaurants. There are actually deer "hides" lining the perimiter fence at the airport in Veinna, Austria and the entire landscape is dotted with "hides". But, if you are not wealthy, you would never afford to hunt. The relatively low densityof western species and high hunter success rates of western hunting combine to create a tough challenge. PPs seem to have been setup to give everyone a chance at some point, vs. a random draw, but it looks like it just backfires and becomes all about how can throw the $ at it every year. Fortunately, I can now, but could not 10 yrs ago. However,growing up pretty dam poor, even living in a Uhaul 2 times when evicted from our home, i can appreciate that not everyone can chaes that dream. I am not a doomsday prepper, i dont think the country is about to fall apart, etc. But i have to say visiting Eastern Europe was a wake up of where i know for a fact we are headed in my lifetime....it is a shame that we now feel like each of us is the one entitled by birth wright, location of residence, or our net worth, etc. There are bills in place in Congress as we speak to sell of BLM lands in states such as WY and MT, yet we focus our discussions on where you live vs. where i live. Very few people on the forum hunt anything that is not federal land, so why are all putting up fences betwen ourselves when the wolf is at our door.....

Bowing out of this one..... i have worked in natural resources in 30+ states, 3 countries, and 3 continents and we keep making the same mistakes over the decades of evolution in natural resource management.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

Oregon and some other states already do this. NR tags are capped, but not guaranteed. Hard to argue that this is unfair in my estimation. The only thing I would change with Oregon's system is to split the 10% between the PP draw and the random draw. Oregon just runs the NR allocation through the PP draw, and for many hunts the only way a NR can draw is by winning the points game (no chance for a random draw).

QQ

As a resident I can see why people with years and years invested in the system would be upset with this change, on the other hand as a resident it erks me that a non-resident can draw a tag 3,4, or even 5 years faster than a resident....that's over 20% faster! Perhaps a better solution would be to not "set-aside" a guaranteed amount of tags to go to non residents regardless. Instead, put a limit on the amount that can go to NR (10%, 20%, 25%, whatever it may be). What this could do is put everybody, res and NR, in the same running together and once the limit is reached for nonresidents in each area, no more are given to NR. Conversely, there would be the potential of 0 tags being given to NR if they don't have enough points to play the game (such as areas 1 or 38 for moose where you must have max points to draw).

It would take some work to refine the drawing system as it stands, but I think it would be more fair to all parties involved. I also think residents would more inclined to leave a 20% limit on nonresident licenses.

 

[woodtick]

Make it right for everyone. Give the residents more tags. Offer a payback to nonresidents who paid into the system. That is the most fair thing to do.

I'm all in on this idea!!

 

[NDHunter]

Make it right for everyone. Give the residents more tags. Offer a payback to nonresidents who paid into the system. That is the most fair thing to do.

That'd be nice. I feel like the odds of that are right at 0% though. That would never pass would it?

 

[woodtick]

That'd be nice. I feel like the odds of that are right at 0% though. That would never pass would it?

This is the government were talking about!! I'd wager to say NO!

 

[shootbrownelk]

I get where you're coming from but have to disagree. If we go down that road, where does it end in 50 years with regards to who can apply for which tags? Do we tell guys who live in Casper that they can't apply for sheep tags because they don't live in the same county as the sheep unit? For bison that migrate out of Yellowstone and get shot in Montana, should Wyoming demand some retribution because Montanan's are shooting "their" bison. Or what if I am a NR who wants to go trout fishing in a stream in the Bighorns, should I be able to?

I'll admit I'm biased as a NR but feel like at least a certain portion of tags should be available to NR's. I'll admit 25% is quite a bit but I sure hope it never goes below 10%.

ND, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't North Dakota have an elk herd with some monster bulls in it? Last I heard they were for residents only, I think South Dakota is also residents only....I know there are more states where NR's can't hunt trophy animals. I've been applying for moose for 30+ years and drew 1 tag 15 years ago. A NR has preference points for Elk, Deer and Antelope. We residents do not. I've been applying for a certain deer area for 30+ years with no luck, A NR with max points and a "Special" fee has a way better chance at that tag than I do. That's fair huh?

 

[WapitiBob]

Guide council is reporting 100% no votes once the committee members were told of potential revenue loss from applicants not wanting to continue to buy points. Interesting for sure.

 

[NDHunter]

ND, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't North Dakota have an elk herd with some monster bulls in it? Last I heard they were for residents only, I think South Dakota is also residents only....I know there are more states where NR's can't hunt trophy animals. I've been applying for moose for 30+ years and drew 1 tag 15 years ago. A NR has preference points for Elk, Deer and Antelope. We residents do not. I've been applying for a certain deer area for 30+ years with no luck, A NR with max points and a "Special" fee has a way better chance at that tag than I do. That's fair huh?

Yes you are correct about ND and SD. I'll admit, the NR quotas for ND are a joke. I don't know what the allocation should be, but I feel like 10% is fair. Like I said in my post, I'll admit that 25% is a lot for NR's. For deer in ND, they give 1% to NR's. And as you said, NR's cannot draw moose, sheep or elk. Well I think NR's can maybe apply for sheep but it is something outrageous like $500 non refundable to apply.

Until I started looking into hunting other states, I never even knew about or thought about what the NR quotas were and I think that's pretty much how everybody here is. We see NR duck hunters but I've never seen 1 NR deer hunter. I honestly don't know if the state has ever looked at raising the NR quota but I feel like it would be massively opposed (not saying that's right). Hardly anybody here goes out of state to hunt so nobody thinks about that stuff. I don't know what to tell ya...

As for the preference point issue, I guess that's up to Wyoming to decide if they want to go down that route. From what I've heard, it sounds like most residents like the random draw system.

 

[libidilatimmy]

Guide council is reporting 100% no votes once the committee members were told of potential revenue loss from applicants not wanting to continue to buy points. Interesting for sure.

This is about the 3rd or 4th bill this set of legislators have had shot down because of the potential fiscal impact on the GF department. Seems to me that these folks are more driven by personal agenda than what makes sense as a real solution, especially with the bill that had the piggyback last year where immediate family members could all apply for trophy species as a party and all have the same number of PP as the highest point holder in the party.

 

[WapitiBob]

Bill failed 4/1

 

[woodtick]

Bill failed 4/1

well that makes me a little happier!!