How many elk do wolves eat in Yellowstone

[BuzzH]

It was the 2nd hunt, the first hunt only got 3 for 10. Historically all the hunts were over 50%, and most over 75%. This outfitter hardly ever hunts deer now as there just arn't enough available.

The source I read said that male lions range between 300 & 500 sq miles.

Depends, but I think 500 sq miles would be in un-hunted populations and very rare. Most of the research suggests closer to 300 for adult males. Females likely are 100-200, there is over-lap in ranges as well...lions are considered semi-territorial.

The more you concentrate hunting on adult male lions, the more lions you'll have in the same area and home ranges shrink...and fast.

 

[kidoggy]

Go ask any GF/DOW/DNR biologist how many ungulates a lion kills per year...ask the same question about wolves.

You're going to get the same answer, give or take, 50-60 per year per lion. 12-22 per year per wolf.

Again, its not rocket science.



Then ask for total wolf population and total lion population.

Apply 3rd grade math and its more than apparent lions kill wayyy more ungulates a year than wolves.
Not sure why that's so hard for some to comprehend, those are the facts.

the fuzzy facts.1st a lion most likely DOES not kill 50-6O IN A YEAR. and a wolf may only eat 22 per year but they kill a lot more then they eat.
the truth is one wolf may kill only 5 in a year and another may kill hundreds. no one knows exactly and those who claim to are full of feces
2 instead of comparing how much a lion and wolf eat,which will never do anything to help the ungulates, I propose we kill as many as we can of each.


no, it is not rocket science. rocket science requires actual facts not just those pulled from a posterior.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Wow, the "logic" in these discussions is really something.

Take a major drainage, say you have a pack of 10 wolves, there going to kill on average 120-220 ungulates a year.

In that same drainage you have 10 lions...that's 500-600 ungulates a year.

Comparing 10 wolves to 1 lion...no chit the wolves are going to kill more.

What if we compare 10 lions in a drainage and 1 wolf?

Good grief...

So the drainage you are talking about would probably only have 1 male and maybe 2 female lions, not 10.

 

[gypsumreaper]

And look at these facts Buzz, those pesky facts of elk numbers, 1995 suddenly herds kind of dropped for some reason I'm couldn't think of anything that would be a direct impact on elk numbers dropping from. 19,000 in winter 1994 to 5000 in winter 2016. Must of been an over population of beaver.

Those pesky facts

 

[mntnguide]

So the drainage you are talking about would probably only have 1 male and maybe 2 female lions, not 10.

+1....Never would a drainage contain that many mature lions. 1 Male will continue to push others out of his territory as he searches to find females. Ive been on chases on one track that covers 20 miles and thats the only lion in the area. . Buzz, you like to always act like your answers have to be correct and you are never wrong. Which is why you have been kicked off other forums if i remember right. . but that being said, your third grade math and common sense arent on the same page in this argument.

 

[480/277]

The post is about elk predation in YNP. I will use Buzz's numbers but my math.
From the NPS there are 26 - 42 lions in YNP
Using Buzz's number of a kill/week (rounded) we have
26x50=1300
42x50=2100
Further since this is elk populations we are talking about, lions eat about 30% elk
That gives use
1300 X 30%=390
2100 X 30%=630

We will use Buzz's figure of 22 elk per wolf per year

Wolves population fluctuated but for illustration
Year 1997
86 wolves x 22 = 1892

Year 2003
174 wolves X 22 =3828
Year 2016
98 wolves X 22= 2156

 

[ScottR]

Keep it civil gentlemen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[480/277]

I'm sorry is my math uncivil?......


Grin

Further to extrapolate
There are 578 wolves in YNP ecosystem
578 X 22= 12,716 elk eaten in YNP ecosystem this year

 

[BuzzH]

And look at these facts Buzz, those pesky facts of elk numbers, 1995 suddenly herds kind of dropped for some reason I'm couldn't think of anything that would be a direct impact on elk numbers dropping from. 19,000 in winter 1994 to 5000 in winter 2016. Must of been an over population of beaver.

Those pesky facts

Couple questions, what about the elk populations back in the 60's? No wolves, yet fewer elk than now?

I have that graph you posted too...here's another one, to add to the collection and complete the picture.

Notice how pro-active the MTFWP was in response to wolf reintroduction...didn't stop late elk hunts until well into the mid-2000's. Smart.

 

[BuzzH]

. I will use Buzz's numbers

We will use Buzz's figure of 22 elk per wolf per year

Those aren't my numbers...those are the numbers that reflect the science...

 

[gypsumreaper]

Once again buzz don't you think the drop in numbers of hunter killed elk was also a result of cutting tags due to the elk population dropping?

Also can you post to show what tags these were for it does not say if it was Yellowstone, or eastern Wyoming, Montana it's just numbers.

 

[480/277]

Well they are numbers you used to support your argument.
The math Is still correct

 

[BuzzH]

+1....Never would a drainage contain that many mature lions. 1 Male will continue to push others out of his territory as he searches to find females. Ive been on chases on one track that covers 20 miles and thats the only lion in the area. . Buzz, you like to always act like your answers have to be correct and you are never wrong. Which is why you have been kicked off other forums if i remember right. . but that being said, your third grade math and common sense arent on the same page in this argument.

I agree, but what happens when male lions (the mature ones you mention) are removed each year? You know, the ones most likely to be shot by a client or serious lion hunter? In particular when essentially all female harvest, or very low female harvest occurs? Yeah, I've read that science too, lion densities increase fast. Exactly what I observed on my trap lines and while hunting...and its reflected in my personal hunting and trapping journals. The same thing in the track journals I kept for the MTFWP when I ran my trap line. I noted all the fur-bearer and predator tracks I found along with how many kills I found, and the number of fur-bearers I killed.

I'll just say this, when I first started trapping I didn't have much problem with lions getting in my sets. The last few years I trapped Montana, it was a real PITA keeping lions out of them.

The reason you and others seem to think "I'm always right" is because I don't pull numbers out of thin air...and I'm not ever forced to "guess". Facts and science tend to flat rattle some folks...never could understand why? Combine that with 4 decades of hunting/trapping experience, some just flat lose their minds. Talk to dozens of biologists to confirm said facts and personal experience...many come completely unhinged. Never could understand that either.

We actually have people claiming that lions don't kill a deer/elk/sheep/moose,etc. a week on this thread...what do you think about that?

We have people claiming that they don't kill 9-10k lbs of biomass a year...what say you?

You hunted lions apparently, set the record straight.

 

[BuzzH]

Once again buzz don't you think the drop in numbers of hunter killed elk was also a result of cutting tags due to the elk population dropping?

Also can you post to show what tags these were for it does not say if it was Yellowstone, or eastern Wyoming, Montana it's just numbers.

The graph is for the NYE elk herd...Gardiner.

Was it smart to keep hammering on elk for a decade plus after reintroducing wolves? In particular when grizzly populations were also increasing?

Or, would it have been more prudent to stop it, since elk numbers were already declining prior to reintroduction?...notice how little the general hunting season harvest has fluctuated since the mid-90's...funny, that.

 

[gypsumreaper]

Probably would have been best to just not introduce wolves and leave everything the way it was. Elk we're doing very well, hunters we're doing well, lions were sustaining themselves, grizzlies, coyotes everything was pretty in balance. So what was the point of introducing wolves?

 

[kidoggy]

the point was to wipe out the hunters , with the longterm goal of stripping our 2nd ammendment rights. that is it in a nutshell.this thread has convinced me that they will ultimately succeed

 

[480/277]

I think with wolf introduction you will see drastic swings in expansion areas just like YNP until the pendulum settles in the middle. BC has had wolves for some time and they still have elk. But the landscape is forever changed.

 

[gypsumreaper]

the point was to wipe out the hunters , with the longterm goal of stripping our 2nd ammendment rights. that is it in a nutshell.this thread has convinced me that they will ultimately succeed

I completely agree, I hate getting into political bs but Wolves are a huge part of the Agenda 21. Push people out of rural areas to the big cities.

Buzz I do have to say I really like your odd way of thinking of every thing you post is fact, yet the facts everyone else posts are wrote off as non facts.

 

[Rockymountim]

I agree with you Gypsumreaper. I have been hiking around the Yellowstone Ecosystem for 32 years. My personal observation is there are alot less elk North Of Hebgen Lake, Montana and the Beartooth Mountains in Montana in the US Forests. There are alotmore on private property the last 15 years. The Dome Mountain Ranch rarely had elk along the Highway in May in the 80's and 90's. Now there are hundreds of elk on it in May. They probably stay there now protected by the ranch hands. This does not help the DIY public land hunter. And yes I have walked alot. Been all the way to Sky top Lakes the base of Granite Mountain. You young guys will be older some day. Walking way back in there takes its toll on a person and you will want to hunt a mile or two from the truck someday. Elk hunting was more enjoyable in the 80's and early 90's.

 

[mntnguide]

I agree, but what happens when male lions (the mature ones you mention) are removed each year? You know, the ones most likely to be shot by a client or serious lion hunter? In particular when essentially all female harvest, or very low female harvest occurs? Yeah, I've read that science too, lion densities increase fast. Exactly what I observed on my trap lines and while hunting...and its reflected in my personal hunting and trapping journals. The same thing in the track journals I kept for the MTFWP when I ran my trap line. I noted all the fur-bearer and predator tracks I found along with how many kills I found, and the number of fur-bearers I killed.

I'll just say this, when I first started trapping I didn't have much problem with lions getting in my sets. The last few years I trapped Montana, it was a real PITA keeping lions out of them.

The reason you and others seem to think "I'm always right" is because I don't pull numbers out of thin air...and I'm not ever forced to "guess". Facts and science tend to flat rattle some folks...never could understand why? Combine that with 4 decades of hunting/trapping experience, some just flat lose their minds. Talk to dozens of biologists to confirm said facts and personal experience...many come completely unhinged. Never could understand that either.

We actually have people claiming that lions don't kill a deer/elk/sheep/moose,etc. a week on this thread...what do you think about that?

We have people claiming that they don't kill 9-10k lbs of biomass a year...what say you?

You hunted lions apparently, set the record straight.

All depends on the Area. I have witnessed plenty of times a Lion LIVING off a kill for weeks. If the game in the area is not thick a lion will stay on a kill as long as they need to. So no, I dont believe they ALWAYS kill 1 big game animal a week because i have personally seen the evidence when they do not. How about when the wolves slaughtered 19 elk on the Bondurant winter ground last year? Once again, I have never seen a wolf kill only when they need to like a lion. You hear of mass slaughters by wolves time and time again. They kill for surplus just as much as food. Does a Lion kill a lot of game, yes, they need to in order to live as well, but a lot of that is dependent on the area they live in. And from my knowledge of here in western WY, the majority of lion kills found by houndsmen here are Deer and not elk. The elk are concentrated in areas the lions are not whereas the deer seem to be in locations the lions prefer. Other states and regions have different circumstances. Wolves primary food is moose and elk. Since the Moose have been well wiped out in the Yellowstone region, this leaves elk as the primary target. So back to the original argument here, I do not believe lions kill more elk than wolves in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. Places like NW montana could easily be different.