How many elk do wolves eat in Yellowstone
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bghunter
Active Member
You shouldn't post it, I almost got heart attack, and I have to pay thousands of dollars every year to those stupid bueracrats who is the biggest hunter haters and enemies.
Hilltop
Veteran member
I'm honestly ok with a few packs in Yellowstone to help keep the herds in the ball park of carrying capacity. Outside of the park is another story... sure hope the season return soon.
Colorado Cowboy
Super Moderator
I advocate fencing the park, hell if we can fence the border we should be able to fence the park. Keep those "few packs" inside! LOL
mntnguide
Very Active Member
Everywhere I've ever been a lions main food is deer..I'd like to know where your data is that shows lions kill more elk than wolves. Truly just curious considering I've owned hounds and ran hounds for others and deer was the primary kills we came across with occasional elk.
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Couple sources, one being a good friend of mine that did a lion study in the late 70'-early 80's in Yellowstone. Their study found, that many cats were killing almost exclusively elk during certain times of the year. What isn't up for debate is that each individual cat is responsible for killing about 9,000 lbs of ungulates a year. Each wolf isn't killing close to that, as described in the article, each wolf is killing 1.4-2.2 every 30 days.
I would also point out the calf mortality study that was conducted in the Bitterroot just a few years ago. It was found that the vast majority of calf elk mortality was LIONS, not wolves, not bears, not coyotes. I'm a life member of one of the NGO's that financially supported the calf mortality study.
There is a lot of hysteria about wolves, but the reality is, that lions kill a lot more ungulates a year than wolves, and by a landslide.
Also, wolves don't feed entirely on elk either...
mntnguide
Very Active Member
yea i can agree with your thoughts. just was curious. I know the houndsmen who are the head of that study in the Bitterroot. They have been darting cats all winter again this year. They are good friends of mine. No doubt lions are an unbelievable force when it comes to taking down game. At least they do it efficiently and quick unlike wolves
Not true...there were both before we started intervening, trying to play god...and the herds were even better then.
Prior to wolf reintroduction I was only able to kill one elk per year in MT, ID, and WY....now I can kill 2 per year in MT and ID, and 3 per year in Wyoming.
Using your logic, I could conclude, that wolf reintroduction has increased my ability to bag multiple elk per year.
so are you saying that that in the areas of Idaho where wolves have taken a strong foothold that elk numbers haven't suffered? I can assure you that they have suffered a great deal. the state as a whole is doing great number wise but if you just count the wolf populated areas its not as it was.
gypsumreaper
Active Member
- Mar 13, 2014
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Can you give us a number of animals 9000lbs comes out to? Is this a live carcass weight of meat including bone and hide, or is this amount of meat eaten? Because that still comes out to roughly 750lbs per month. Based on a study done by university of Wyoming a bull elk weighs roughly 560lbs. After lower legs and guts were removed it weighed 400 lbs. minus hide and head was 332lbs and final meat cuts was 166lbs. If we add back on the internal organs of 140lbs we get a weight of 306lbs. I'll leave out the wolves chewing bones for marrow so 1.4-2.2 elk per 30 days would be around 428.4-673.2lbs. For a yearly total of 5,140-8078.4lbs per wolf. So not as much as a lion but still pretty close.
So my question is how these two factors works out everyone says wolves eat so many elk per month lions eat lbs per month. I'd like to see lbs to lbs or animas to animals and what constitutes an animal per month. Live weight or meat eaten. This is also like comparing apples to oranges as we have a solitary animal vs a pack animal. Just a breeding pair would double the amount of animals harvested for wolves.
Yes wolves and lions were here before us 2 predators in an eco system once we stepped in, we had to rid a predator to keep the balance wolves lost.
There was a recent cougar predation study in OR, Mt. Emily unit. The deer/elk mix was dramatically different for females and male Cougars. Females took deer 72% of the time, elk 25% and the rest was non ungulates. Male Cougars took elk 45% of the time, deer 44% and non ungulates made up the rest. They are now doing a cougar wolf interaction study there. Not sure what the cougar male/female population distribution is, but odds are more deer are taken here by Cougars than elk. Be interesting to see the wolf prey distribution from this area. Wolves are fairly new there. But I suppose they may get some of that data from the wolf/cougar study.
Hilltop
Veteran member
Interesting information on this thread. Can someone provide links to the lion studies? Would love to read up and learn.
Depends if they're preying on deer, elk, elk calves, fawns, etc. It can vary, but the 1 ungulate per week per cat, is pretty close. Obviously it depends on the individual cat, some slick a carcass pretty well, while others do not.
The fair comparison is single wolf to single lion...and that works out to a lion killing 5-6 ungulates a month compared to an individual wolf at around 2 or less per month.
Better to have a pack of 8 wolves in your hunting area or 8 cats? Doesn't take a college degree in statistics to know which I'd rather have...
But, I know, lets keep blaming wolves for everything, while lions continue to have the largest impact.
The once famous migration hunts in Wyoming are still famous, and highly sought after...elk are far from extinct around Jackson, last I checked.
meathunter
Active Member
You may be able to bag 2 deer and elk in Idaho a year, but not in areas that the wolves have decimated the herds. Take a trip to the Lolo area and you will find few elk and deer, plenty of predators, bear and wolves. The elk and moose tags have been on a serious decline there, along with hunt success. I've spoken with outfitters there that no longer offer elk hunts as they have switched to bear hunting and F & G biologists that say the wolves have had a dramatic decrease since the reintroduction. F & G have also hired professional wolf hunters to trim the wolf packs.
gypsumreaper
Active Member
- Mar 13, 2014
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So you're saying destroy the lions now, and bring in the wolves?
But also what about the proven theories of wolves killing animals for training the young? Then just leaving them? Such as the 19 elk killed in Idaho. Sure we are talking about how much they eat but not all kills.
What's also going to stop a pack of wolves from eating their 20lb fill per day if the food is accessible. Let's say they get onto the Gunnison basin winter range. That would be a simple easy kill zone for them where they could literally kill daily and eat all the meat they wanted. Are they going to set up rules where the wolves can't bother animals on the winter range like they have for us? Just the stress of wolves to those herds could kill even more deer and elk especially in a year like this year.
You don't hear about many lions getting on the basin and running animals to get their feed.
And to your question 8 lions OR 8 wolves I'll take the 8 lions. They are spread out more in the unit which means you don't have 8 lions hunting one herd. You have 8 lions hunting 8 different herds. A pack of 8 wolves is going to hunt 1 herd that's around 8-16 elk/deer a month for the pack out of a herd of let's say 40 2-3 months it's gone pack moves to the next herd, they do have a very wide range to move.
For your reading pleasure...http://fwp.mt.gov/fishAndWildlife/management/elk/bitterroot/
bitterroot final report is the first pdf...worth reading, at least twice. Pay attention to the calf mortality.
Lots of other good information in there, about how fwp "biologist" John Vore (although not mentioned) was the biggest predator on elk with his mis-management of elk allowing cows to be slaughtered by the hundreds.
Good information on the habitat differences in the West Fork VS. East fork, fire, nutritional value of plants, how that relates to fat reserves, calf/cow ratio's, and ultimately calf survival.
As per always, most people are quick to point fingers on what has caused and is causing some elk herds to decline. If it were only as easy as blaming a wolf...life would be so much easier. Unfortunately, reality isn't that simple and wayyy beyond complex.
All these things deserve more than a casual thought every time we pull the trigger on an elk, mule deer, pronghorn, etc. etc. That critter you're about to "throw the smackdown on" "smoke" and some of the other stupid things I hear and see on TV show, forums, etc....didn't get there by accident and went through a lot to provide a hero picture and/or a trip to your dinner plate.
bitterroot final report is the first pdf...worth reading, at least twice. Pay attention to the calf mortality.
Lots of other good information in there, about how fwp "biologist" John Vore (although not mentioned) was the biggest predator on elk with his mis-management of elk allowing cows to be slaughtered by the hundreds.
Good information on the habitat differences in the West Fork VS. East fork, fire, nutritional value of plants, how that relates to fat reserves, calf/cow ratio's, and ultimately calf survival.
As per always, most people are quick to point fingers on what has caused and is causing some elk herds to decline. If it were only as easy as blaming a wolf...life would be so much easier. Unfortunately, reality isn't that simple and wayyy beyond complex.
All these things deserve more than a casual thought every time we pull the trigger on an elk, mule deer, pronghorn, etc. etc. That critter you're about to "throw the smackdown on" "smoke" and some of the other stupid things I hear and see on TV show, forums, etc....didn't get there by accident and went through a lot to provide a hero picture and/or a trip to your dinner plate.