How many elk do wolves eat in Yellowstone

[hoshour]

I just got around to reading this thread and I have to say Buzz that your math is way off when you say lions kill way more elk than wolves.

You used a figure of lions killing 9,000 lbs. of ungulates per year. If you use McCoy’s Mt. Emily, OR study figures, lions killed elk about 33% of the time and deer 67%, assuming that the number of male to female lions is equal and they kill at equal rates. That may or may not be true, but let’s assume it for simplicity. Assume that an average deer weighs 200 lbs. and an elk 600 lbs. That 9,000 lbs. per year would come out to 9 elk and 18 deer per year per lion (9*600) + (18*200) = 9,000.

If you use the Yellowstone study that GypsumReaper mentioned where elk are 2/3 of a lion’s kills, that would come out to 10 elk ((9,000 X .67)/600 lbs.).

So, based on those two studies, a lion kills 9-10 elk/year while a wolf kills 1.4 – 2.2 a month or 16.8 to 26.4 elk per year.

Next you have to ask how many wolves are killing in a given area vs. lions. The Yellowstone Cougar Project estimated that in 2014 there were 26-42 cougars in Yellowstone. If each one kills 9-10 elk, that is somewhere between 234 and 420 elk/year. On the other hand, the wolf estimate is 96 wolves X 16.8 to 26.4 elk kills a year = 1,612 to 2,534 elk taken by wolves in Yellowstone each year. Doug Smith’s estimate in the original post in this thread estimated the Yellowstone wolf kill at between 1,568 and 2,156, roughly the same neighborhood as what I listed above.

Let’s use Smith’s estimates because there are a little more conservative and he is the biologist for the area in question. Final elk kill tally – lions 234-420 elk, wolves 1,568-2,156. Call it roughly 5 times as many elk killed by wolves as by lions.

 

[kidoggy]

like I said before , BUZZ, loves the fuzzy facts! as do all wolf advacates.

 

[BuzzH]

hoshour,

I think you need to pay attention, you don't get it. You're trying to "blend" about 5-6 different studies into one. Not even too sure where you get that the "average" deer is 200lbs and elk 600? When was the last time you threw a calf elk on a scale? For your further knowledge, when dead elk were weighed at the Gardiner check station, during the late hunts there, the average dressed weight of mature cows was 330 lbs, mature bulls 450. Your 600lb average for elk is laughable. How about a fawn whitetail/mule deer? Weighed many 200 lb yearling does lately? Sorry to confuse you that a lion doesn't focus kills on 200lb deer and 600lb elk...averages are "phantom" scores.

Heres some real simple math, based on many studies that simply look at total numbers of big-game killed.

Wolves kill about 22 ungulates a year.

Lions kill about 52 a year. Is 52 greater than 22? Yes.

Which kills more per year, a lion or wolf? Lion, about 2.5 times as many.

Now, do some research and find out what the lion population is in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Oregon, Washington etc.

Now, do some more research and find out what the wolf population is in the same states.

Get those numbers, come back, and we'll talk about what's having the bigger impact on our big-game herds.

Lions kill wayyyy more big-game per year than wolves and by a literal landslide. Lion populations are wayyyy higher than wolves in every state in the West.

It aint rocket science...

 

[gypsumreaper]

Hoshour that's exactly what I was getting at. Lions usually hunt alone in their territory, unless females with young. Wolves are in packs, so if they both frequented the same area you'd have 1 lion killing 9-10 elk per year. And a breeding out of wolves killing 33.6-52.8 elk per year in that area.

According to other opinions listed lions are more densely concentrated which is why it comes down to there kill more...I guess from what I was told earlier in the forum. But the facts don't lie.

One of the biggest things I have found on this subject is where the facts come from, environmentalists use facts based off what they believe in. Wolves don't do damage, they are nice. And when true facts are presented they read between the lines and pick out the parts they want to believe. Like completely skipping over "upon reintroduction the elk herds were decimated by the wolves, their behaviors were changed, more stress was induced and survival rates dropped". They read upon reintroduction elk herds were changed by wolves , their behaviors were changed, stress was reduced, and survival rates raised"

Along the other fight of wolves are already here they will be here regardless. YES!!!!! They are here (Colorado) and it is what it is I will adapt my hunting and my business around them. But I do not believe they should be introduced artificially. If they want to migrate down fine. If they do get introduced there should be a tag limit on them the moment they are released from the cage X number of tags per year and a quota of wolves set. Not like what happened in Yellowstone where we will allow X wolves then we will hunt. Because then when that numbers reach the environmentalist come back out of the wood work to put a stop to the killing of their majestic animals. And then it's put off longer. Lottery tags for the state wide during all hunting seasons, like a governors tag for a wolf. As soon as they are released, we can't let them run wild with no stopping them that's how disease is spread.

 

[kidoggy]

hoshour,

I think you need to pay attention, you don't get it. You're trying to "blend" about 5-6 different studies into one. Not even too sure where you get that the "average" deer is 200lbs and elk 600? When was the last time you threw a calf elk on a scale? For your further knowledge, when dead elk were weighed at the Gardiner check station, during the late hunts there, the average dressed weight of mature cows was 330 lbs, mature bulls 450. Your 600lb average for elk is laughable. How about a fawn whitetail/mule deer? Weighed many 200 lb yearling does lately? Sorry to confuse you that a lion doesn't focus kills on 200lb deer and 600lb elk...averages are "phantom" scores.

Heres some real simple math, based on many studies that simply look at total numbers of big-game killed.

Wolves kill about 22 ungulates a year.

Lions kill about 52 a year. Is 52 greater than 22? Yes.

Which kills more per year, a lion or wolf? Lion, about 2.5 times as many.

Now, do some research and find out what the lion population is in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Oregon, Washington etc.

Now, do some more research and find out what the wolf population is in the same states.

Get those numbers, come back, and we'll talk about what's having the bigger impact on our big-game herds.

Lions kill wayyyy more big-game per year than wolves and by a literal landslide. Lion populations are wayyyy higher than wolves in every state in the West.

It aint rocket science...

nor is it true.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

I had a college prof in a Statistics class that said, "If you can't prove your point, you don't have enough statistics" The point being that anyone can make statistics support what they are trying to prove, weather they are right or wrong.

 

[brdhuntr]

As of 3-31 -2017, Idaho has 319 wolf kills, if you figure at least 30% that go unreported, that's 350 plus dead wolves. A recent report by Idaho F&G claims that the wolf population grew by 20%. F.Y.I

 

[ivorytip]

hoshour,

I think you need to pay attention, you don't get it. You're trying to "blend" about 5-6 different studies into one. Not even too sure where you get that the "average" deer is 200lbs and elk 600? When was the last time you threw a calf elk on a scale? For your further knowledge, when dead elk were weighed at the Gardiner check station, during the late hunts there, the average dressed weight of mature cows was 330 lbs, mature bulls 450. Your 600lb average for elk is laughable. How about a fawn whitetail/mule deer? Weighed many 200 lb yearling does lately? Sorry to confuse you that a lion doesn't focus kills on 200lb deer and 600lb elk...averages are "phantom" scores.

Heres some real simple math, based on many studies that simply look at total numbers of big-game killed.

Wolves kill about 22 ungulates a year.

Lions kill about 52 a year. Is 52 greater than 22? Yes.

Which kills more per year, a lion or wolf? Lion, about 2.5 times as many.

Now, do some research and find out what the lion population is in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Oregon, Washington etc.

Now, do some more research and find out what the wolf population is in the same states.

Get those numbers, come back, and we'll talk about what's having the bigger impact on our big-game herds.

Lions kill wayyyy more big-game per year than wolves and by a literal landslide. Lion populations are wayyyy higher than wolves in every state in the West.

It aint rocket science...

If this is true, then even more of a reason to kill more wolves

 

[gypsumreaper]

Buzz you tell hoshour that he is blending facts from 5-6 different sources. This is the exact same thing you have done as well. I have stated your shady facts before on your lion stats 9000lbs a year, 52 kills a year and 5-6 per month. That's throwing 3 different sources into one just as you stated hoshour did. I have done the same but I'm not gonna base everything off of one persons opinionated facts on a research doc.

Wolf numbers are getting out of control, in Yellowstone alone in the 9 packs they have gone from a 20 pup survival rate over all 9 packs to 40 surviving per year, and that's the Yellowstone area only.

 

[BuzzH]

Go ask any GF/DOW/DNR biologist how many ungulates a lion kills per year...ask the same question about wolves.

You're going to get the same answer, give or take, 50-60 per year per lion. 12-22 per year per wolf.

Again, its not rocket science.

Then ask for total wolf population and total lion population.

Apply 3rd grade math and its more than apparent lions kill wayyy more ungulates a year than wolves.

Not sure why that's so hard for some to comprehend, those are the facts.

 

[BuzzH]

gypsum,

You better check your "data"...wolves are not "out of control" in Yellowstone.

Very much in control, again, those pesky facts, always getting in the way of conjecture.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Lets say a wolf pack is 10 animals, 10x 17 animals (the average between 12 & 22) all of a sudden the pack takes 170 animals, 3 times as many as a lion. So if you have a wolf pack and a lion in their territory, the animals they feed on suffer equally...I think not.

 

[ivorytip]

I wonder how often "numbers" are altered to meet a certain criteria? I'm going to say a lot. No way in hell are these number s accurate. I'd say not even close. So many more wolf kills that go unoticed, same as lions... Agendas must be mett and as we all know, government agencies are experts in altering things to meet ones goal. There are also wolves held upbin areas that we are told no way. They are all over the place. I'd say they have a better idea in lion population than wolf population. But way off on both. To be honest, I just don't care if the wolf lives or dies. But they need to be managed. That much we can all agree on.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

gypsum,

You better check your "data"...wolves are not "out of control" in Yellowstone.

Very much in control, again, those pesky facts, always getting in the way of conjecture.

I understand why the wolf population decreased in Yellowstone....their food source got a lot smaller and would only support smaller numbers of them, they had to move out of the area of starve.

I hunted Thorofare , on the southeast side of the park in 2012. Compared to previously years there were far fewer elk, deer and moose according to my outfitter. I only saw 17 elk, 2 deer and I moose in 8 days. Our total camp got 0 animals. Yep I am a hunter and was dead set against reintroduction of wolves...still am.

 

[BuzzH]

Lets say a wolf pack is 10 animals, 10x 17 animals (the average between 12 & 22) all of a sudden the pack takes 170 animals, 3 times as many as a lion. So if you have a wolf pack and a lion in their territory, the animals they feed on suffer equally...I think not.

Wow, the "logic" in these discussions is really something.

Take a major drainage, say you have a pack of 10 wolves, there going to kill on average 120-220 ungulates a year.

In that same drainage you have 10 lions...that's 500-600 ungulates a year.

Comparing 10 wolves to 1 lion...no chit the wolves are going to kill more.

What if we compare 10 lions in a drainage and 1 wolf?

Good grief...

 

[BuzzH]

I wonder how often "numbers" are altered to meet a certain criteria? I'm going to say a lot. No way in hell are these number s accurate. I'd say not even close. So many more wolf kills that go unoticed, same as lions... Agendas must be mett and as we all know, government agencies are experts in altering things to meet ones goal. There are also wolves held upbin areas that we are told no way. They are all over the place. I'd say they have a better idea in lion population than wolf population. But way off on both. To be honest, I just don't care if the wolf lives or dies. But they need to be managed. That much we can all agree on.

Not disagreeing with you on basing opinions on one study...the problem is, when dozens and hundreds of studies all lead you to the same place, the science eventually wins out. The facts matter.

Like I said, call any biologist, read the peer-reviewed research and science, talk to lion hunters, trap and hunt for 4 decades...you'll get to the same place.

That is, that lions kill about 50-60 deer a year, wolves 12-22 a year.

Its funny that the very same people that trust the science and GF agencies behind estimating populations of elk, deer, pronghorn, bighorn sheep, etc. etc., setting seasons for same, conducting harvest data...will then turn right around and don't believe the very same people and science when it comes to lions, bears, wolves, etc.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Wow, the "logic" in these discussions is really something.

Take a major drainage, say you have a pack of 10 wolves, there going to kill on average 120-220 ungulates a year.

In that same drainage you have 10 lions...that's 500-600 ungulates a year.

Comparing 10 wolves to 1 lion...no chit the wolves are going to kill more.

What if we compare 10 lions in a drainage and 1 wolf?

Good grief...

Wolves are solitary animals for the most part and have a very large range, I would bet close to the same as a wolf pack. They don't tolerate other lions. Depending on the size of the drainage, I would expect there would be far fewer lions than 10!

 

[BuzzH]

I understand why the wolf population decreased in Yellowstone....their food source got a lot smaller and would only support smaller numbers of them, they had to move out of the area of starve.

I hunted Thorofare , on the southeast side of the park in 2012. Compared to previously years there were far fewer elk, deer and moose according to my outfitter. I only saw 17 elk, 2 deer and I moose in 8 days. Our total camp got 0 animals. Yep I am a hunter and was dead set against reintroduction of wolves...still am.

But wait, I thought gypsum said the wolves were "out of control" in Yellowstone? Declining in number is "out of control"?

Let me guess, on your thorofare hunt...you didn't hunt the first hunt with your outfitter...

 

[BuzzH]

Wolves are solitary animals for the most part and have a very large range, I would bet close to the same as a wolf pack. They don't tolerate other lions. Depending on the size of the drainage, I would expect there would be far fewer lions than 10!

I think you meant to say lions are solitary animals and they do have a fairly large range, but not nearly as large as a pack of wolves.

I've cut 6 different lion tracks in a single day of hunting in the drainage where I hunt whitetails in Montana. The same drainage is within the jocko wolf packs home range...I've yet to cut their tracks.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

It was the 2nd hunt, the first hunt only got 3 for 10. Historically all the hunts were over 50%, and most over 75%. This outfitter hardly ever hunts deer now as there just arn't enough available.

The source I read said that male lions range between 300 & 500 sq miles.