Ground level sheep

johnsd16

Active Member
Mar 16, 2014
353
4
N Idaho
This may seem like a silly far off question, but I'll ask it anyway.

As I close in on long term improved finances I am considering how best to pursue my dream animal which is a big, chocolate colored rocky mountain bighorn ram. Not a short haired desert sheep or early season animal. I envision snow and dark fur.

I am 33 now and have no points anywhere. I see myself hunting deer and maybe elk in multiple states down the road and like to hunt every year, but I would plan to do THIS once. In looking at hunts in BC, the trophy fees can be ridiculous, and for whatever reason, doing a hunt in the states and buying points to draw a tag has some element of appeal to me. It just seems different to potentially kill one here, and go through the process of points, research, draws, etc as opposed to buying a hunt. On top of that, guides in WY are in the $10k range, and $20 years of points is only $2k, which is less than most trophy fees. Maybe I am missing something.

I would plan to start buying points next year (2017) and have looked at WY, as it is easy to buy points, and it seems like the sheep situation there is stable. From what I can tell the other states that would offer the type of animal I want would be tougher like MT, UT, CO or don't have point systems, ID.

I along with some friends are already building points in WY for deer and PH, and will probably start on elk next year as well. I'd rather not do the Canada thing for bighorn. I would consider going up there for goat, dall or other things, but for some reason I'm stuck on wanting a lower 48 bighorn. I would consider DIY when the time comes depending on a lot of things, but imagine this as a guided trip, for purposes of success primarily.

Is getting in on the ground floor in WY pointless?

Anywhere else I should be looking for building points?
 

Umpqua Hunter

Veteran member
May 26, 2011
3,576
88
61
North Umpqua, Oregon
This may seem like a silly far off question, but I'll ask it anyway.

As I close in on long term improved finances I am considering how best to pursue my dream animal which is a big, chocolate colored rocky mountain bighorn ram. Not a short haired desert sheep or early season animal. I envision snow and dark fur.

I am 33 now and have no points anywhere. I see myself hunting deer and maybe elk in multiple states down the road and like to hunt every year, but I would plan to do THIS once. In looking at hunts in BC, the trophy fees can be ridiculous, and for whatever reason, doing a hunt in the states and buying points to draw a tag has some element of appeal to me. It just seems different to potentially kill one here, and go through the process of points, research, draws, etc as opposed to buying a hunt. On top of that, guides in WY are in the $10k range, and $20 years of points is only $2k, which is less than most trophy fees. Maybe I am missing something.

I would plan to start buying points next year (2017) and have looked at WY, as it is easy to buy points, and it seems like the sheep situation there is stable. From what I can tell the other states that would offer the type of animal I want would be tougher like MT, UT, CO or don't have point systems, ID.

I along with some friends are already building points in WY for deer and PH, and will probably start on elk next year as well. I'd rather not do the Canada thing for bighorn. I would consider going up there for goat, dall or other things, but for some reason I'm stuck on wanting a lower 48 bighorn. I would consider DIY when the time comes depending on a lot of things, but imagine this as a guided trip, for purposes of success primarily.

Is getting in on the ground floor in WY pointless?

Anywhere else I should be looking for building points?
At 33 you are probably too late to draw in states with point systems.

Here is a PM I sent to someone with similar questions in 2014 so some of the info is a bit dated and has worsened for a newcomer in certain states:

Thanks for your question. Between my immediate family and I, we have drawn seven sheep tags. I've been seriously applying for 30 years and have made a science of my applications. I will not apply for hunts or in states where I think I will likely not see a return on that investment. When I try to determine if its a good investment, I look at my costs compared to my draw odds. For example if you spend $100 for a 0.5% chance (1 in 200) for a sheep tag, if you instead had saved that $100 two hundred times you would have $20,000 saved or enough to buy a sheep hunt in Alaska. With the point systems most states have in place, I recommend to all new guys asking about this to save their money for a sure thing, a Dall sheep hunt in Alaska or the Yukon.

Years ago applying for sheep tags could potentially save some money, but I don't believe that to be the case anymore. I think to start applying for sheep tags now on the ground floor is like investing in gold when its an an all time high and hoping to make a bunch of money. I DO NOT ascribe to the "someone has to draw" idea that the app services promote. They are in it to make money and are selling hope. That is simply "gambling" for tags. That's like trying to get rich buying lottery tickets, rather than through hard work and expertise. My family spends our money strategically to draw tags.

Of the seven sheep tags we drew: All three that I personally drew were drawn with max points (CO, NV and WY). The two in Oregon were drawn by my brother and wife were drawn as residents (far better draw odds), in units that I was certain (from a ton or research) would have good draw odds that particular year. The final two tags were drawn by my sons and were the result of a crazy amount of research to find the very best chances to draw. Consider that my family has submitted hundreds of sheep applications.

The exception to what I have told you is this.... most states require you to buy a hunting license to apply, so if you are ALREADY buying a hunting license in a state to apply for other species, it's worth spending say $15 or $20 to throw your name in the hat for a sheep tag.

Now for the scenario in various states and why I think it's not a good idea to jump in hoping to draw:

Montana: Montana squares its preference points. The max point holders have 14 points, so 14 squared is 196. So if you apply this year, the top applicants have 197 chances to draw (196+ 1 for the current year) and you will have one chance. A poor investment. Montana just began a significant non-refundable application fee last year, and even though I had max points I dropped out for mountain goat because my odds were so poor (even with max points). I am still hanging in for sheep since I have max points and I want to kill a really big ram in my lifetime, but my odds even with max points are around 0.2% to 1%.

Nevada: Similar situation as Montana (squared points) except the point system has been going on for 22 years and to earn points you have to buy a non-resident hunting license. You have applicants with 22 points who will have 485 chances to draw (22 squared + 1 of the current year) compared to your one chance as a newcomer.

Idaho: I rarely apply in Idaho, I think it's a very poor investment. I have maybe applied for Idaho sheep 3 times in the past 30 years. In Idaho you have to buy a non-resident hunting license, you earn no points, and if you apply for sheep you cannot apply for ANY other species. On the surface Idaho draw odds "appear" to be good, but if you dig deeper, non-residents have a cap on the percentage of tags they can draw, 10% cap I believe. When the cap is reached, no more non resident tags are drawn. The odds in Idaho are far worse that they appear. If you want to get an idea of the draw odds, determine all the non-resident applicants for sheep, and the total number of sheep tags drawn and you will get an idea of what reality is in Idaho.

Arizona again has a point system which now has applicants with 26 points. I have 25 points and even my odds are far less than those with max points, because a significant portion of the tags go only to those with max points. Again you have to buy a non-resident hunting license to even apply. Many of the tags offered can only be drawn by those with max points and a LOT of guys are spending money applying and don't realize that.

New Mexico was one of the best places for a new guy to apply because the out of pocket costs were low even though the upfront costs are high, and there was no point system. That changed in 2014 when they lowered the non-resident quota, and nearly eliminated the chance to draw a non-resident sheep tag. This year New Mexico had over $6000 of my money when they made that change, and my wife and I ended up with virtually no chance to draw.

Oregon: You have to buy a non-resident hunting license to apply. If you are buying one anyways I would spend the extra $8 to apply. Draw odds are far too poor though to justify investing in a license only to apply for sheep.

Utah: Utah has very few sheep tags and astronomical odds and you have to buy a license to apply By astronomical, I mean close to 1000:1. I have max points (22 points), and my odds are still awful. The reason I stick with it, is if they ever give 2 non resident tags out for a given hunt, one tag will go to the person with the max points and there are only about 30 guys with max points.

Wyoming: Wyoming has a point system and max point holders have 20 points. You will never catch a max point tag in your lifetime. Only 25% of the tags go to those without max points, and in most units you are required to hire an outfitter due to wilderness requirements.

Colorado is still a bargain to apply, but you have to apply three years before you even have a chance to draw, and there is a point system that has guys with a 17 year jump on you. I am in the max point pool and my odds are still long (0.5% to 1%). You have to front the substantial tag fee to apply, most of which is refunded. In your fourth year to apply your odds for a good unit will be around 1 in 300.


For those who finally beat the long odds for a sheep tag, most guys will then hire an outfitter to make the most of it. In fact in Wyoming you have to hire an outfitter for most units. We hired outfitters for 3 of our 4 out of state sheep hunts. Today, that will add another $7K to $10K on top of the investment to apply and the tag fee. Lets say you invest $10K in app fees to draw, and $2K for a license and $8K for an outfitter, you have $20K invested. That is another reason I say go for the sure thing and save for a Dall hunt.

If you choose to go the application path, be prepared to invest a lot of money, and hundreds of hours into research. If you have an app service handle applying for you, you can let them do the research and have higher costs. They also will be applying you in areas where they apply their other clients. lowering your odds.

This is why I now advise new guys to go for the sure thing and save for an Alaskan hunt. Again if you are buying a license somewhere and for $20 more you can apply for sheep...go for it.

Jim
 
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sneakypete

Veteran member
Aug 9, 2011
2,821
275
Oakdale Ca.
You're so right on the raising costs of sheep hunting! Start buying points in Wyoming this year in July ! Most of all if you can afford a trip to Reno in January, join the Wild Sheep foundation for $45, then join the less than One club for $20. In Reno and you must be present to win, but the WSF gives away 3 sheep hunts! Plus travel expenses. So spending $65 and if you win a 40,000 sheep hunt it'll be money well spent! My thoughts.
 

johnsd16

Active Member
Mar 16, 2014
353
4
N Idaho
Wow UH, thanks! Disheartening info but clearly the situation is difficult. The whole concept of how many individual NRs have points (of any number) in these states makes things so much different for the future than for those who got in the game when the game started, or shortly thereafter. One has to wonder how many people with 2, 5 or even 10+ sheep points in WY will fall off due to age, health, or just not putting in anymore. The top point pool will continue to get drawn off but it gets so much deeper as you go back from max.

I had no idea the odds were so bad in some of the other states even when at or near max points. The cost of a BC hunt is not really a huge issue, I just have somewhat of a problem with the massive trophy fees. It just seems wrong, and maybe I'm an idiot for preferring the hunt cost $25k as opposed to $12k with a $19k trophy fee.

I appreciate the input.
 

Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
4
Oregon
If you are not willing to substitute a Dall Sheep hunt, then you will have to try something to attain your goal. The odds are long. Going for less desirable units can help improve your odds significantly. The more draws you can participate in, the better chance you have of drawing a tag. Lotteries, contests etc are all worth a look.

So were I in your shoes, I'd explore MT unlimited tags and possibly some of the remote ID sheep tags with very low demand, they are all very tough hunts, and plan on costing out guides etc. Would probably need to figure on multiple hunts to get a bighorn. You'd at least get to chase Bighorn Sheep. That or save for a Dall Sheep hunt, or apply in tons of states for 30+ years and hope...
 

tim

Veteran member
Jun 4, 2011
2,423
1,072
north idaho
you will never draw if you don't apply. With that said, I don't apply in as many states as I used to for DESERT sheep.

I drew a rocky mountain bighorn in Idaho in 2004. I did not know much about sheep or sheep hunting. I just wanted to go back to a particular part of Idaho to hunt. I drew and have since learned how lucky I was for drawing.

One thing to look at is, most states have a raffle of some sort, so do the sheep organizations. You might have a chance that way. But most sheep hunting seems to be done by guys that are willing to do whatever it takes to get a tag, or people who have been very successful in there respective careers and have lots of disposable income.

Don't give up hope, but search for the chances that are out there. get ahold of the grand slam club or wild sheep foundation, they might be able to point you in some directions, that are not found on this forum.

I have been lucky and have a 3\4 slam. The sheep bug once bit can be a bad bug, lucky for me the bug has wained.

I will say this though. Sometimes buying a tag is the easiest part of the hunt. It is just money and you can always make more.
 

Umpqua Hunter

Veteran member
May 26, 2011
3,576
88
61
North Umpqua, Oregon
A huge problem of starting now in Wyoming is there is a "wall" of applicants somewhere around 15 points. If you take a look at the tally of Wyoming applicants at various point levels, this is fairly easy to see. The exact reason for the "wall" is escaping me, but I believe it was when Wyoming started allowing you to just buy a point rather than submit the full application fee. That wall is a massive spike in the number of applicants that will take a very very long time to draw through for nonresidents. I have a friend just under that and I've been advising him to get out and save his $100/year, granted he is 60. He is reluctant because he feels it's his best chance to hunt sheep, but there are many years of applicants ahead of him.

Another problem with starting the point game now, is I think the states that implemented point systems on once in a lifetime tags (or should I say one in five lifetime tags) have made a big mistake and they will eventually realize it and make changes. It is one thing to have a point system on something you will likely draw in a lifetime of applying like a high demand elk or deer hunt. Sheep is not one of those. The demand for sheep tags far outweighs the supply. Sheep odds are more in the really of a tag in four or five hunting lifetimes (1:200 odds). So if you start at the ground floor now, who's to say the point systems will be in place in 20 years when you have applicants with 40+ points still in the system.

In Arizona I am at 26 sheep points (one less than max) and think I will hit in the 30-40 point range, and that was starting out near ground floor of the point system. In Colorado I have max points, my odds still are poor, but out of pocket costs are low. In Montana I am at max and my odds are still typically 1% or less but I have a dream to kill a big sheep in my lifetime so I'm sticking with it.
 
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johnsd16

Active Member
Mar 16, 2014
353
4
N Idaho
Looking at the sheep odds in WY and reading the replies leaves little room for hope. There are hundreds of applicants in the teens for points, and it is hard for me to wrap my head around what the point levels would have to look like to draw through all those individuals when there are 1-8 tags per year in a given unit in the PP draw.

It is sad when the random draw doesn't look "bad" when the aggregate odds are 0.3% (1993 applicants for 7 tags, not including those that apply for firth choice in units with no tags in the random draw) ranging from 2.3% to 0.23%.

Financially, buying a bighorn hunt in BC or Alberta is not really an issue (more of an issue with the boss lady), but as dumb as it seems, the payoff seems more satisfying if you go through the process than just throw money at it.

If I'm going to waste my money on draws and points (possibly in addition to raffles, etc) is there a better place than WY with the random and PP draw? I may to ID occasionally if hunting there, but wouldn't plan on annually putting money there. Maybe CO since I want to hunt deer and elk there in the future too.

Thanks for the input so far. Seems like a far off dream, but without planning it will never happen.
 

Hilltop

Veteran member
Feb 25, 2014
3,846
2,229
Eastern Nebraska
As mentioned before- your only realistic chance to hunt bighorn sheep in the lower 48 is in Montana on the unlimited tag. I have heard it is the most challenging hunt in the lower 48 but at least you would be sheep hunting instead of dreaming.
 

Ridgerunner

Active Member
Feb 21, 2011
308
0
I agree with UH 100%, that being said at some point there will be thousands of current high point holders that bow out of the system. If you selectively start applying now who knows what the future will bring, especially in states where there are random draws. I'm very lucky to have drawn here in Washington and now only play the odds in a few select states for desert sheep, hoping I draw one day. But I no longer put in for other states like Montana or Idaho. Just not a good enough return on the cash outlay. I'd probably feel different if I didn't have a great ram on the wall though. My heart breaks for my kids who tell me how they want to go sheep hunting. With the way things are I'm not sure they will get that chance.


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sheephunter

Active Member
Jan 29, 2012
245
10
Colorado
If it makes you feel any better, I drew a goat tag the very first year I was actually in the draw here in CO. So it only took me 4 years. It took me 9 years to draw a sheep tag. I feel really fortunate to have drawn them both in the relatively short amount of time, and I hear similar stories every year. Then again, I hear stories about guys who have been applying for 25+ years and still haven't drawn. As noted earlier, a sure way to NOT get drawn is to not apply.
Also, do not discount buying a raffle ticket every year for the governors sheep tag. I personally know 4 people who have drawn that tag.
 

luckynv

Active Member
Aug 3, 2014
274
1
Henderson, Nv
Another thing to watch if money is not an object is The SCI auctions, prices can be steep, but all fees are usually included except transportation to and from and tips. There are also cancellation hunts that sometimes go at a substantially reduced price but you have to have the flexibility of time and money in the bank waiting for the perfect moment for you. Good luck and God bless
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
I think another consideration regarding buying sheep hunts in AK and Canada....don't expect that to stay the same either.

Anyone that believes that AK is going to be open for OTC tags in the future is going to be wrong. If you plan on saving for the next 15 years, there's a chance by the time you get the money together, it will be draw only.

I went dall sheep hunting in 1995 and the area I hunted was OTC, bought my tag at a Walmart. Now, that same area is draw only and I know people that have applied since it went to draw, and have not drawn.

Plus, as the OTC opportunities dry up in AK, that will put a premium on the Canada hunts, no doubt driving prices even higher.

All of this leads to...even if its your first year to apply for sheep, you better start doing so in any state that offers a tag. Counting on opportunities at guaranteed hunts at todays prices is setting yourself up for a major disappointment.

Also, thoroughly understanding how the draw process works in each state, and being willing to hunt less than the "glory" sheep units will significantly increase your odds over the long-haul.

I drew an AZ desert tag in 2012 with only 11 points...and the odds weren't as bad as most make them out to be. It wasn't the best unit, but I spent 10 days prior to season looking around and killed one of the 5 best rams (165 and change gross) taken from the unit in the previous 5-6 year period. I also did the hunt DIY, camped the whole time, and did the hunt for less than 2k including the tag fee.

I don't feel the same way about deer, elk, and pronghorn, but in the case of sheep, if you ever want to realize the dream of actually hunting one, waste no opportunity at a chance for a tag. Don't wait for next year, as things will, for 100% fact, change...been there and have lost out on so many opportunities because I waited.
 

BKC

Very Active Member
Feb 15, 2012
835
163
The high plains of Colorado
I feel very fortunate to have drawn and killed both my goat and ram. I started putting in early, way before the internet made these very popular animals to apply for. I wish my son could draw a tag but at 30 years old, he doesnt have to start panicking yet. It will only get worse in the future to just draw a tag, let alone have a quality hunt.
 

tyaskin74

New Member
Jun 5, 2016
1
0
Umpqua thanks for breaking it down that way,that really is a reality check!

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jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
234
96
Lots of great advice here. Umpqua Hunter's list is very good! One thing not mentioned is you can actually hunt sheep in Montana every year if you want. Montana offers unlimited tags in a few units. Once a quota is reached the unit is shut down. Harvest success may be slim but you can hunt bighorns. It may take several years to figure it out but there is always a chance you get a ram. If it were me I would forget about Wyo. I had 2 pts less than max and got out of the Wyo sheep draw many years ago. It was expensive and I never thought I'd catch up to draw. My buddy finally drew w/1 less than max this year and is paying $14,000 for a guided sheep hunt in wilderness! There are a few Wyo units outside wilderness but you better have close to max pts or you likely won't draw in your lifetime.

Another consideration is nonres are generally rated as 2nd class citizens. Changes similar to what happened in NM are never in favor of nonres. There is no guarantee that 20 years from now the same number of tags are issued to nonres. There also is no guarantee that the bonus/pref pt process will be the same 20 years from now. Alaska is lobbying for creating all dall sheep tags for nonres to go to a draw for nonres. Any way you look at it sheep tags will likely never get any easier to draw than today.

If I were a nonres I would seriously consider Colo. Colo has a lot of sheep and is fairly nonres-friendly. Once you have 3 pts you have a chance to draw a tag. A lot of guys overlook Idaho. With no pref pts you have as good a chance as any nonres of drawing an Idaho tag....although you have to front the license fees each year...and as mentioned above 90 to 100% of the tags go to Idaho res. If you want a little better odds of drawing a sheep tag in your lifetime it may be worth a little research and move to a state (like Idaho) that offers res better draw odds.
 

bsoliday

New Member
Dec 1, 2011
11
0
Frederick, CO
CO should not be out of the question. The odds are long after the initial 3 year period, but every year, guys with only 3 points pull a tag in some unit. You can download the Bighorn draw recap off of the CO Game & Parks site. 9 guys with less than 10 years into it (3+ 7 weighted) drew last year.

I am a CO resident and didn't start putting in until I was 30. Finally drew this year at 56 and took a wonderful Chocolate Ram (See the current issue #96 of EBJ for my story/photos).

Sol