Cheating the system

[Ikeepitcold]

Twice this week I?ve heard about this happening.

It seems every time we turn our heads there is more crap like this going on with hunting. It just chaps my butt.

In states like AZ and NV where prference points are in use and party tags are allowed guys are putting in for party tags and cheating the system and making a lot of money doing so.
A guy with say 15 points will put in for a party tag with a guy that has 3 points. The guy with 15 has max points and will split his points with the guy that only has 3. When they draw the tags the guy with 15 points turns his tag in and keeps his points while the guy with 3 gets to hunt a unit he would have had to wait for max points to draw.
I?ve heard the guy with max points can charge the other guy $1000.00 for this!

This just blows my mind that this kind of crap is happening. I know that NDOW is aware of this happening and is going to block this in some way very soon but not sure about the other states. I also assume this has been going on for years but this is the first I?ve heard of it. I do know for sure of a guide in Nv that is doing this but he is a shady guy and has a bad reputation.



Please keep your comments respectful to everyone as I know these subjects can get our blood boiling as it does me too.


What?s your thoughts?

 

[Hilltop]

Wow, I had no idea that was going on. I would hope states would try to prevent that from happening.

 

[BuzzH]

It has been going on for years, easy to tighten up the regulation.

I don't understand why hunters are shocked this type of thing happens. In every state that has a PP system, its being gamed somehow. Point averaging, people either directly paying or giving information to another hunter in exchange for using points. Outfitters are either charging a high point client less for a hunt if they party app with a lower point client or paying them directly...goes on and on and on.

Like many things that are passed with good intentions in mind, it needs to be well thought out before implementation. You have to think of the most low-life, crummy, under-handed thing that people will do to give themselves an advantage over others when you start discussing point systems. Just the way it is...

No matter how much of an advantage a preference/bonus point system provides, somebody is constantly wanting to change it to give themselves even more advantage. Who cares about new hunters, who cares about young hunters, who cares about anyone with 1 less point than me...I'm entitled to my tag!

Lots of examples, MT changing to squaring bonus points, I heard one of the Dakota's is going to go to cubing bonus points, changing percentages in preference pools vs. random pools, and on and on and on.

There has been legislation in WY to allow people to will their points to relatives when they die, or even transfer to a family before they die.

I've heard people say there should be separate pools of tags for retired people or someone over 65, Separate pools for youth hunters, etc. etc. Anything and everything to give themselves a better shot at a tag.

Its crazy, and never ending.

 

[480/277]

You draw the tag, you go hunt. No more turning tags in , that problem fixed.

 

[Winchester]

I had no idea suck a thing was even possible, let alone going on.
How do crooks even think up stuff like this?
I sure hope they find a way to stop it from happening.

 

[480/277]

It's like trying to understand a psychopath. Normal people can't/don't think that way.
Honest people don't scheme like this.
The fall of man.

 

[mallardsx2]

You draw the tag, you go hunt. No more turning tags in , that problem fixed.

^^^^ I concur.

 

[swampokie]

Any one with 15 az points just applying for points this year?$ ive only got a couple holler at me!!! Just kiddn...

 

[nv-hunter]

I know of some that have turned in tags for the right reasons ( medical ) and they shouldn't be punished, how ever party tags should be one turned back they all get turned back. That fixes it right there.

 

[JimP]

^^^^^^^^^This right here.

This would put it to a stop fairly quickly.

 

[Stig87]

Happens quite frequently. A quick review of threads on this and many other forums will show you current examples. Most cases are the person asking to piggy back has information and therefore will trade their info to piggy back on a person in a higher point bracket.

 

[badgerbob]

I know of some that have turned in tags for the right reasons ( medical ) and they shouldn't be punished, how ever party tags should be one turned back they all get turned back. That fixes it right there.

I agree. Apply as a party, turn back in as a party. Party apps. should be considered as one and not allowed to split. I to know of people who have turned in for health reasons....

 

[nv-hunter]

Happens quite frequently. A quick review of threads on this and many other forums will show you current examples. Most cases are the person asking to piggy back has information and therefore will trade their info to piggy back on a person in a higher point bracket.

I don't have issue with this unless someone turns their tag back, or requires cash payment to piggy back.

 

[480/277]

I know of some that have turned in tags for the right reasons ( medical ) and they shouldn't be punished, how ever party tags should be one turned back they all get turned back. That fixes it right there.

Both our proposals have flaws. In yours , you punish the other tag holder w/o a medical condition. The bottom line is you can not legislate for the exceptions.

 

[nv-hunter]

Both our proposals have flaws. In yours , you punish the other tag holder w/o a medical condition. The bottom line is you can not legislate for the exceptions.

That's true however they have a choice to eat one tag or turn in all tags. If we do away with returning tags across the board then tag holders that are not part of a party are also effected. The way it is now all applicants are damaged when one in a party like described turns in a tag and gets points back to be used in future draws while the others still get to hunt. I'm just narrowing the amount affected and they have a choice.

 

[Ikeepitcold]

I know of some that have turned in tags for the right reasons ( medical ) and they shouldn't be punished, how ever party tags should be one turned back they all get turned back. That fixes it right there.

When it?s used for the reason it exists I agree with it.

 

[HuskyMusky]

You draw the tag, you go hunt. No more turning tags in , that problem fixed.

I wished they had a medical exemption in AZ when I drew my area 10 antelope tag. They didn't at the time.

My guess is a few game the system and we can fix that, but there should be reasonable exceptions, also maybe like only turning in 1 tag in a lifetime etc... if the same guy keeps drawing an elk tag and keeps returning it...

 

[480/277]

A legit medical reason is easily verifiable.

 

[Horsenhike]

In SD group applications are treated as if they were all the lowest point holders of the group. Sounds fair to me.

 

[Bonecollector]

I too am against these practices. Unfortunately, the wayward systems are creating a bad environment in general and they will continue. Folks still must choose to make a poor decision, but it gives them an excuse or justification in their minds. I feel the PP systems, as well as the Wilderness laws, create the environment that gives folks the poor excuse to do whatever they can to, in their mind, fight back.
There are a lot of hunting laws/regs I don't like (like the two aforementioned), but I avoid breaking them even if I feel I am right as it's simply wrong/illegal and the consequences of getting caught are not worth the effort.