2021 WY Bill for Tag Increases

[Hilltop]

Nope, not forgetting that at all.

Wyoming just made a change this year that NR's don't have to buy a point to enter the NR draw for random tags. They know most NR's are pretty capable of third grade math and are going to be not buying the points. Those with 18-20 will keep buying them, and even some of the mathematically challenged will too.

The NR point gravy train funding is going to come to an end either way.

There is a way to save it, and that's to convert preference points to Bonus Points. That will keep folks buying the $150 points, if they don't they're just making their own odds worse in a bonus point system.

Another thing Wyoming could do is make NR's and R's buy a base hunting license like CO, NV, ID, AZ, MT already do. Lower the preference point fees to $50 and charge $150ish for a base hunting license as a prerequisite to applications.

Moose, sheep, goat and bison and probably LQ elk are going 90-10. Everything else will likely stay under current splits (deer, and pronghorn) as well as reduced price licenses.

Very little funding loss and 700 more Residents in the first 10 years after this passes will get to hunt moose and sheep...probably in the neighborhood of 15K more residents will get to hunt LQ elk areas as well in that same 10 year period.

Those numbers are significant.

Those are definitely significant changes that will benefit a lot more residents. No questioning that.

I also agree, quite a few ways to make up the funding. I was simply pointing out that you failed to show the significant loss in your math.

The question still remains. How do you compensate those that will be left holding a 1k+ investment?

A bonus system has been mentioned but I get the feeling Wyoming doesn't like the idea. I wouldn't care for this option but it would be better than nothing. I would be happier seeing an option to roll the points to another species. Those would end up being expensive elk points but it's way better than nothing.

In the mean time I'll try to cash my points in. I'm guessing I won't be able to draw in the next year or two though because a lot of those ahead of me will be trying to do the same thing.

 

[RICMIC]

Buzz, one thing that hasn't really been added to this equation is the loss of NR $ to the local economy. I have done 5 guided hunts (deer & elk), and with points, tags, tips, outfitters, taxidermists, lodging, food, gas, etc. have spent over $40,000. On those hunts, I have recruited 16 other hunters with an estimated per hunt expenditure of $6-$8K. On top of that I have done 11 DIY hunts since 2010, and still spend at least $2K in WY per trip. Add on the 10 or so guys that I have partnered with. Ca-Ching, that is around $200,000 that I have brought into Wyoming since I first hunted there in 2009. I am a retired police officer, and no one who has hunted with me was "rich". Maybe the $ going into the Fish & Game fund can be made up, but I know of a lot of generational WY outfitter families who risk losing everything.
I guess that they can always follow Biden's advice and "learn how to program."

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, one thing that hasn't really been added to this equation is the loss of NR $ to the local economy. I have done 5 guided hunts (deer & elk), and with points, tags, tips, outfitters, taxidermists, lodging, food, gas, etc. have spent over $40,000. On those hunts, I have recruited 16 other hunters with an estimated per hunt expenditure of $6-$8K. On top of that I have done 11 DIY hunts since 2010, and still spend at least $2K in WY per trip. Add on the 10 or so guys that I have partnered with. Ca-Ching, that is around $200,000 that I have brought into Wyoming since I first hunted there in 2009. I am a retired police officer, and no one who has hunted with me was "rich". Maybe the $ going into the Fish & Game fund can be made up, but I know of a lot of generational WY outfitter families who risk losing everything.
I guess that they can always follow Biden's advice and "learn how to program."

Because if what I think is going to pass, it won't hurt the local economies. I think there's no way that MSGB and probably LQ elk don't go 90-10. Pronghorn, deer, and reduced tag allocations will stay the same.

To be honest, if any business is going to make its living form a public asset without providing any sort of funding, I don't really care if they lose revenue under 90-10. It also shouldn't surprise them when the owners of said wildlife assets, and pay ALL the freight for same, demand a bigger slice of the pie they bought. When they provide a penny in funding to the Game and Fish, it will be their first.

The least of my concern is outfitters feeling the pinch...Sportsmen stock the shelves with wildlife, outfitters fill their shopping carts with our wildlife and forget to stop at the cash register.

As an added bonus they lease a ton of private, keeping all but high paying clients out. Of course they also pound on the public lands as well. To show how much they care, not only do they keep you off lots of private via leasing, telling you to just hunt public....well, they also keep you out of designated wilderness too. Then, to ice the cake, they create a tiered license fee structure to make sure their rich clients get tags or have shorter waits between tags.

Let's also not forget many of the outfitters in Wyoming don't even live in Wyoming. Many of their guides don't live in Wyoming. A lot of the money they make leaves Wyoming...and since there is no state income tax, they don't even pay that.

You can shed alligator tears for the outfitters...but I'm inclined to not shed a single one. Its all about them, they don't pay a plug nickel to fund the GF, and they don't do even close to all they could for local economics.

I think maybe 90-10 would clean up some of this and maybe make the outfitting industry better...flush the turds and let the cream rise to the top.

Also, Residents spend a lot of money hunting in Wyoming too...all year long. We travel all over the state to hunt, stay in hotels, eat at local restaurants, buy junk food and food fuel at the local gas stations, shop in grocery stores in small communities, buy all our sporting goods locally, make multiple scouting trips, etc. etc. etc.

There are no small businesses that are going to fold if 90-10 passes....and some would see an increase in revenue.

 

[BuzzH]

Those are definitely significant changes that will benefit a lot more residents. No questioning that.

I also agree, quite a few ways to make up the funding. I was simply pointing out that you failed to show the significant loss in your math.

The question still remains. How do you compensate those that will be left holding a 1k+ investment?

A bonus system has been mentioned but I get the feeling Wyoming doesn't like the idea. I wouldn't care for this option but it would be better than nothing. I would be happier seeing an option to roll the points to another species. Those would end up being expensive elk points but it's way better than nothing.

In the mean time I'll try to cash my points in. I'm guessing I won't be able to draw in the next year or two though because a lot of those ahead of me will be trying to do the same thing.

NO reason to compensate anyone for anything, willing buyer willing seller and both got what was being offered. The GF got their point fees, and you got your points. There was no guarantee of anything else...including that the point system or tag allocations were going to stay the same.

Changes in point systems have happened in most all the states I started applying in 22-23 years ago: AZ, MT, CO, UT...and there isnt a state I apply in that has gotten cheaper.

I knew the risks...and so did everyone else that applied.

I think it would be a good idea to use your points...they're for burning anyway. When I was able to draw a solid sheep and moose area...I burned them, no regrets.

 

[Hilltop]

NO reason to compensate anyone for anything, willing buyer willing seller and both got what was being offered. The GF got their point fees, and you got your points. There was no guarantee of anything else...including that the point system or tag allocations were going to stay the same.

Changes in point systems have happened in most all the states I started applying in 22-23 years ago: AZ, MT, CO, UT...and there isnt a state I apply in that has gotten cheaper.

I knew the risks...and so did everyone else that applied.

I think it would be a good idea to use your points...they're for burning anyway. When I was able to draw a solid sheep and moose area...I burned them, no regrets.

How many of those state changes removed all opportunity for you or others in your situation?

I understand your argument but anyone with a set of morals would understand that what was originally proposed was wrong. Changes will be made to 90-10 before it passes. Residents like yourself have the opportunity to try to do the right thing for residents and offer some sort of compromise for non-residents that doesn't completely screw thousands of good people.

Wyoming isn't Colorado, Utah or Arizona. The state of Wyoming has the opportunity to get it right where others have failed imo. I believe a majority of Wyoming residents would feel the same.

 

[BuzzH]

How many of those state changes removed all opportunity for you or others in your situation?

I understand your argument but anyone with a set of morals would understand that what was originally proposed was wrong. Changes will be made to 90-10 before it passes. Residents like yourself have the opportunity to try to do the right thing for residents and offer some sort of compromise for non-residents that doesn't completely screw thousands of good people.

Wyoming isn't Colorado, Utah or Arizona. The state of Wyoming has the opportunity to get it right where others have failed imo. I believe a majority of Wyoming residents would feel the same.

Answer to first question is Utah and Colorado.

I started applying for deer in Colorado when NR's could draw RFW tags, that door was shut.

Utah I applied to gain sheep points when there were tags issued in the preference point draw, same with the couple deer areas I wanted to hunt. The tags were stripped from the preference point draw as Utah decided to take tags from the NR pools for all their expo and other tag give-away programs.

I don't expect any compensation for those changes, I've known for well over 30 years that the States wildlife assets are held in trust for the Citizens of the State it resides in.

I still apply in both states and adjusted my application strategy.

Wyoming Residents are demanding change, and they'll get it. Non Residents will still have a chance at tags.

The only mistake Wyoming has made in regard to its wildlife is being too generous for too long. Entitlement has become the norm for Non Resident hunters. I don't see NR's whining about the 0-10% that Residents in other states have imposed on their NR hunters in MT, OR, ID, NV, AZ, ND, SD, etc. Wyoming should have done this at least a decade ago.

 

[RICMIC]

I have no skin in the game regarding anything other than antelope, deer or elk, and have never applied for anything other than a GEN or an area tag. When I get enough points to draw, then I apply, and my last 7 WY hunts were all DIY. The elk and deer areas that I have hunted are OTC for residents, so they have the opportunity to hunt the places that I do every year if they don't draw a LE tag. My personal concern is that enough NR point holders will burn the points and make the GEN tags unattainable for me in my lifetime.
I do purchase the Super Tags for WY and that is my only chance for sheep, moose , or goat. No complaint there, and if prices go up I can just stop buying them (as I did for bison). I have hunted numerous times in CO, and plan for a MZL cow elk hunt there this year, and will be going with two guys who I have aided in their point pursuit (for 12 years) to hopefully draw bull tags. I was hard to get those guys to even start buying points, and though they are young enough to start over, they definitely will not do so.
Pardon my rambling, but this is my primary passion and my age and the drop-out of hunting partners has left me with a limited number of opportunities in the next few years. I can always switch over to expedition canoeing with no tags required, but my last two partners are now in their mid 70's so it will be another solo adventure.

 

[JimP]

Answer to first question is Utah and Colorado.

I started applying for deer in Colorado when NR's could draw RFW tags, that door was shut.

Utah I applied to gain sheep points when there were tags issued in the preference point draw, same with the couple deer areas I wanted to hunt. The tags were stripped from the preference point draw as Utah decided to take tags from the NR pools for all their expo and other tag give-away programs.

I don't expect any compensation for those changes, I've known for well over 30 years that the States wildlife assets are held in trust for the Citizens of the State it resides in.

I still apply in both states and adjusted my application strategy.

Wyoming Residents are demanding change, and they'll get it. Non Residents will still have a chance at tags.

The only mistake Wyoming has made in regard to its wildlife is being too generous for too long. Entitlement has become the norm for Non Resident hunters. I don't see NR's whining about the 0-10% that Residents in other states have imposed on their NR hunters in MT, OR, ID, NV, AZ, ND, SD, etc. Wyoming should have done this at least a decade ago.

Utah has always used bonus points not preference points int he draws for OIL animals and LE hunts. The only draw that they use preference points in is the general deer season.

Utah also does not take the tags from the non resident pool for the hunt expo. They are taken from the whole hunt. It may decrease the number of tags available to the non resident because of the percentages but they are not taken directly from the non resident.

 

[Alan Leone]

Sure those DIY folks may think twice but don't see this stopping NR that are going through guides when they're paying $5k for a deer and $7k-8K for elk.
As a Wyoming resident it gets harder and harder every year to find private property to hunt any animals. We simply can't compete with the money NRs are willing to shell out to outfitters and ranches. Hard to blame the ranchers but its disheartening to knock on so many doors only to get told the property's outfitted.

 

[BuzzH]

Utah has always used bonus points not preference points int he draws for OIL animals and LE hunts. The only draw that they use preference points in is the general deer season.

Utah also does not take the tags from the non resident pool for the hunt expo. They are taken from the whole hunt. It may decrease the number of tags available to the non resident because of the percentages but they are not taken directly from the non resident.

Wrong about Utah...its modified preference for all species...50% of the tags are given to the top point holders, 50% are random. Also, there is more than expo tags given and a lot of them come from and/or limit the NR tag pools.

Another example of people not even understanding the draw systems and tag give-away programs.

 

[JimP]

Wrong about Utah...its modified preference for all species...50% of the tags are given to the top point holders, 50% are random. Also, there is more than expo tags given and a lot of them come from and/or limit the NR tag pools.

Another example of people not even understanding the draw systems and tag give-away programs.

You better look at Utah again, it is a hybrid bonus point system and not PREFERENCE point system. And they have been giving half of the tags to the top point holders since they started the point system as long as there are 2 or more points available in the draw.

The general deer hunt has always been a preference point system and they have tweaked it over the years to eliminate loop holes that applicants were using.

The thing about the tags coming from the NR pool has been debunked years ago, but you can believe what you want to believe.

Utah's hunting permit drawings

This page is your guide to how permit drawings work.

wildlife.utah.gov

 

[Granby guy]

The special draw would have went away...one price for all the NR tags.

I can also tell you that there are going to be some major changes in Colorado (from a reliable source, its already on the table), there is going to be caps on NR elk, and it will all go draw or first come first serve.

There is NO way that CO can sustain unlimited OTC elk. Not only are there not enough elk to go around, its about quality of experience.

I would bet good money, that in the very near future these changes will be implemented...and if I were a Resident of Colorado I would be demanding it.

I sure hope so because the OTC approach to Colorado elk hunting is unsustainable. There is no way to have a quality public land hunt without horses or some serious backpacking effort and even that is getting tougher every year. It would also bring trespass fees on private land back to reality since this would decrease the amount of people with tags. Colorado has also made changes like making RFW licenses available to residents only, having the high points units move to a 90/10 split but they need to do something to make more deer licenses available to residents. IMO that is a bigger issue than elk because over 30% of deer tags are going to NR while my kids sit home without a tag.

 

[BuzzH]

You better look at Utah again, it is a hybrid bonus point system and not PREFERENCE point system. And they have been giving half of the tags to the top point holders since they started the point system as long as there are 2 or more points available in the draw.

The general deer hunt has always been a preference point system and they have tweaked it over the years to eliminate loop holes that applicants were using.

The thing about the tags coming from the NR pool has been debunked years ago, but you can believe what you want to believe.

Utah's hunting permit drawings

This page is your guide to how permit drawings work.

wildlife.utah.gov

Saying the same thing...but there reaches a point where those with enough bonus/preference points are assured a tag. Hybrid bonus, modified preference, whatever you want to call it....same/same.

 

[BuzzH]

I sure hope so because the OTC approach to Colorado elk hunting is unsustainable. There is no way to have a quality public land hunt without horses or some serious backpacking effort and even that is getting tougher every year. It would also bring trespass fees on private land back to reality since this would decrease the amount of people with tags. Colorado has also made changes like making RFW licenses available to residents only, having the high points units move to a 90/10 split but they need to do something to make more deer licenses available to residents. IMO that is a bigger issue than elk because over 30% of deer tags are going to NR while my kids sit home without a tag.

I totally agree with you...just be ready for the onslaught of NR whining and how unfair Colorado is and how you're all just greedy. How much they've spent in point fees, how their odds will be crushed, blah, blah, blah....

If I were a Colorado Resident I would be raising hell and taking care of Residents.

 

[JimP]

Saying the same thing...but there reaches a point where those with enough bonus/preference points are assured a tag. Hybrid bonus, modified preference, whatever you want to call it....same/same.

That's true but with preference points you need to wait until you are on the top of the heap.

With bonus points you might draw with 1 and then again you might wait until you have max points and still have to hope for a tag. That happened to me on a LE deer tag in Utah. I had max points one year and didn't draw and had to go into the next years pool with max points again, but that time I drew. I also know hunters who have drawn bison hunts with 0-5 bonus points while those with 20+ sat at home.

I did get lucky down in Arizona drawing a coues deer tag two years in a row. The first year I had max points and started all over the next year and drew the tag with just their loyalty point.

 

[Granby guy]

I totally agree with you...just be ready for the onslaught of NR whining and how unfair Colorado is and how you're all just greedy. How much they've spent in point fees, how their odds will be crushed, blah, blah, blah....

If I were a Colorado Resident I would be raising hell and taking care of Residents.

Exactly thanks Buzz. I played the PP game in Wyoming and had a great hunt. I entered the PP game again and my only hope is that I will draw it one more time because it was worth the investment. Being able to do that once or twice in a lifetime is what it is all about.

 

[Rich M]

So - when does this go to vote and when will we know if there are gonna be any changes?

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

So - when does this go to vote and when will we know if there are gonna be any changes?

Already failed !! For now that is