Wolves

[Wogger]

Wolves will be everywhere

+ 2 bears in the last few years, and I suspect there will be a lot more the way the Wisconsin population has been growing

I am new to the forum and have read thru the posts on wolves in various areas. I live in MN and under the direction of our DNR the wolf population has expanded at an alarming rate. Nothing is safe as they will basically eat anything. In the northern portion of the state some areas are void of deer. The wolf has wiped out the population and has moved on. They are killing machines and the old myth that they only kill the young, weak and old is just that a myth.

The DNR in MN has planted the wolf into areas not previously know to have the wolf. I would imagine if they are planted in Colorado the elk population will drop like rock in short order as an elk is an easy target for a pack of wolves. In fact nothing can escape a pack of wolves. They are taking on moose and bison with no trouble. I feel bad for guys in states the wolf will be introduced as your hunting will change practically overnight.

 

[Hilltop]

As much as everyone seems to dislike them, I'm guessing most of us would love to see one this fall in an area we were allowed to shoot it! I would love a wolf rug!

 

[johnsd16]

As much as everyone seems to dislike them, I'm guessing most of us would love to see one this fall in an area we were allowed to shoot it! I would love a wolf rug!

I am a big fan of having a healthy number on the landscape. Emphasis on healthy. In MN it is not hard to find plenty of trail cam pictures of horribly mangy wolves. Too much population density. Fact of the matter is they will have to share the deer with us. They are no longer endangered or threatened. Big game hunting is big business in all states, letting populations do what they may is not an option in modern society. We have developed the countryside. Essentially all large animals with a non threatened population are managed by humans, wolves are no different.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

I am a big fan of having a healthy number on the landscape. Emphasis on healthy. In MN it is not hard to find plenty of trail cam pictures of horribly mangy wolves. Too much population density. Fact of the matter is they will have to share the deer with us. They are no longer endangered or threatened. Big game hunting is big business in all states, letting populations do what they may is not an option in modern society. We have developed the countryside. Essentially all large animals with a non threatened population are managed by humans, wolves are no different.

For me a healthy number would be ZERO in the lower 48! They never have been endangered, but would love to see them that way on their way to extinction in the lower 48.

 

[Musket Man]

For me a healthy number would be ZERO in the lower 48! They never have been endangered, but would love to see them that way on their way to extinction in the lower 48.

I couldnt agree more CC! There is a reason they were wiped out here in the first place and these wolves are much bigger and to alot more damage then the native wolves. The native wolf was not much bigger then a coyote and they actually are somewhat endangered. There actually were a few native wolves around yellowstone until these wolves killed them. I guess they are more endangered now. The introduction was "experimental non essential" meaning the wolves were not endangered in any way. The canadian wolves we have now were INTRODUCED here not REINTRODUCED. They were never here and you cant reintroduce something that was never there.

 

[Musket Man]

As much as everyone seems to dislike them, I'm guessing most of us would love to see one this fall in an area we were allowed to shoot it! I would love a wolf rug!

I would only like to see them so I can kill them. I would much rather still have all the animals and hunting they have destroyed over any wolf hide.......

 

[micropterus79]

I couldnt agree more CC! There is a reason they were wiped out here in the first place and these wolves are much bigger and to alot more damage then the native wolves. The native wolf was not much bigger then a coyote and they actually are somewhat endangered. There actually were a few native wolves around yellowstone until these wolves killed them. I guess they are more endangered now. The introduction was "experimental non essential" meaning the wolves were not endangered in any way. The canadian wolves we have now were INTRODUCED here not REINTRODUCED. They were never here and you cant reintroduce something that was never there.

Those are some interesting points MM; so is what you're referring to as a "native" wolf a gray wolf and the species from up north what we might call a "timber wolf?" Really curious about that and couldn't find any straightforward answers online but I will keep digging.

In my humble opinion, one of the worst management strategies with this whole wolf thing was not effectively managing under the guise of endangerment. If anyone with some common sense reads the endagered species act, it really makes no sense even from a biological, evolutionary, and ecological standpoint. It is simply too subjective. Similar to MM's point above, take the example of the green back cutthroat trout in the southern rockies; millions and millions were spent on "reintroducing" that species to rocky mountain national park in CO even though that was at the very edge of its historical range which suggests it was never that great of habitat to begin with. On top of that is the philosophical and non-scentific side that automatically assumes humans cause extinctions and completely ignores the fact that habitats, ranges and species' distributions expand, contract and even disappear due to MANY factors that might have been thousands or even millions of years in the making.

Kind of ironic...

 

[packmule]

Coyotes are abundant, but wolves got "shot" to extinction. Somehow think that's not quite right considering coyotes seem to be the dumber of the 2. Or could it be they are a smaller animal requiring less maintenance and when the elk & bison herds tanked, so too did the wolves.

 

[Againstthewind]

That is a good point Packmule. I don't think they were all shot. Part was losing their food sources, part was poisoning, part was hunting them out. There was a pretty concerted effort to wipe them out with a bounty on hides and everything and coyotes were more of a nuisance and the hides weren't worth as much from what I have heard anyway. They did a heck of a job of it in Texas from what I have heard. Not many Lobos down there anymore that I have heard about.

 

[Musket Man]

The Timber wolf is the native wolf. The "gray wolf" is the canadian wolf we have now. Some terms have really been generalized since they planned the introduction and that is why you cant find a definate answer online. The whole introduction was illegal. Congress denied funding and the money was stolen from the Pitman/Robertson fund by USFWS. The head of USFWS at the time was the former head of USHS. There is not even proper paperwork to transport them from Canada to the USA and they arrived and were released before anyone knew it had happened.

 

[Musket Man]

Coyotes are abundant, but wolves got "shot" to extinction. Somehow think that's not quite right considering coyotes seem to be the dumber of the 2. Or could it be they are a smaller animal requiring less maintenance and when the elk & bison herds tanked, so too did the wolves.

Wolves were killed off by poison and trapping and a price on their head.

 

[micropterus79]

Coyotes are abundant, but wolves got "shot" to extinction. Somehow think that's not quite right considering coyotes seem to be the dumber of the 2. Or could it be they are a smaller animal requiring less maintenance and when the elk & bison herds tanked, so too did the wolves.

Also good points PM and Against. That's probably where my trout analogy above breaks down; overhunting and disappearance of food resources were certainly the overriding factors in wolf range contractions where that is certainly not the case with the cutthroat trout.

I just don't like when any agency or group decides that something should be somewhere just because it might have existed there before and concocts a reintroduction plan and really don't try to objectively figure in all the things that can go wrong-often times, at least with fish species, those reintroductions fail because the habitat has been altered and really ends up being an injustice to the species that is being "saved."

If wolves from the reintroduction efforts from the north and northwest are truly expanding their ranges as mentioned in the posts above (and I have no reason to believe that it isn't true), then it is a serious natural resources management issue...from the wolf's perspective, a ranching standpoint, and game management.

Very interesting posts and discussion on this thread!

 

[micropterus79]

The Timber wolf is the native wolf. The "gray wolf" is the canadian wolf we have now. Some terms have really been generalized since they planned the introduction and that is why you cant find a definate answer online. The whole introduction was illegal. Congress denied funding and the money was stolen from the Pitman/Robertson fund by USFWS. The head of USFWS at the time was the former head of USHS. There is not even proper paperwork to transport them from Canada to the USA and they arrived and were released before anyone knew it had happened.

Very interesting...thanks for the info. So it really was all so some people/politicians can sleep a little easier because they did something and to hell with the on-the-ground consequences.

 

[Musket Man]

Very interesting...thanks for the info. So it really was all so some people/politicians can sleep a little easier because they did something and to hell with the on-the-ground consequences.

Something like that. Look up the Yellowstone is Dead documentary and Save Western Wildlife. Alot of good info on it from some people that were behind the scenes when all this was happening.

 

[micropterus79]

Something like that. Look up the Yellowstone is Dead documentary and Save Western Wildlife. Alot of good info on it from some people that were behind the scenes when all this was happening.

Will do MM. Sounds like an educational experience!

 

[packmule]

That is a good point Packmule. I don't think they were all shot. Part was losing their food sources, part was poisoning, part was hunting them out. There was a pretty concerted effort to wipe them out with a bounty on hides and everything and coyotes were more of a nuisance and the hides weren't worth as much from what I have heard anyway. They did a heck of a job of it in Texas from what I have heard. Not many Lobos down there anymore that I have heard about.

We still have the lobos in a sense, their genetics have just been diluted after years of crossing with coyotes. And if some reason the recessive wolf traits were visible it'd be hard to tell much difference between the two. See they're releasing a handful into AZ & NM though so there's a big ol' waste of time & money. Science shows those will cross and won't take long until they're coyote trait dominant...or they'll get shot as coyotes. Funny thing is, here we get property tax exemptions under the Wildlife exemption for shooting coyotes/predators.

 

[Musket Man]

Will do MM. Sounds like an educational experience!

I have met Scott that started SWW. He is a great guy and has done alot to help get wolves delisted so they can be managed by the states.

 

[packmule]

Wolves were killed off by poison and trapping and a price on their head.

Coyotes would have been collateral damage with poison. Considering the times, ppl weren't passing up pelts that brought any kind of money in their quest for a wolf bounty.

 

[johnsd16]

Wolf and coyote reproductive rates are very different as well. It can take wolves a long time to recover population wise. I like having them in MN. I think our recent number are still at least twice as many as I would like. I think the MN "target" at one time was 1500. 1000 would be a better number IMO, but at one point depending on the year/count/method we had upwards of 4000 some say. You all out west got a bad deal getting stuck with those Alaskan/Yukon type wolves. Those dogs compared to the Great Lakes version is like comparing our moose to the AK/Yukon moose. Not the same animal.

 

[Granby guy]

There was a wolf killed on I -70 near Idaho springs that they traced back to the Yellowstone herd. There have been some recent and reliable sightings near Kremmling in the last few years. I think it's only a matter of time before we have a sizable population of them here.