Wildlife task force, 90-10, etc.

WyoDan

New Member
Nov 8, 2020
2
3
Bottom line is Wyoming Residents have the right to manage our wildlife as we see fit.

ID, MT, NM, AZ, OR, etc. all run successful wildlife programs with 90-10 (or less).

The GF budget is not only fine, but has nearly a years worth of operating expenses in reserve. PR/DJ funding is probably as high as its ever been. Money from the Governors/Commission tags get funneled back to the GF as well.

The case to be made in regard to loss in revenue isn't going anywhere. Hotels, Restaurants, and other businesses don't care whether its a NR or R that's eating their food, staying at their hotel, or buying fuel at their gas stations...all pays the same.

What Residents in Wyoming are asking for is not one bit different than Residents in others States enjoy. Even the outfitters on the task force realize the chances for their kids, grandkids, etc. to be able to hunt quality tags is only going to happen with more tags available to them. And, they're right about that.

I'm also tired of NR's telling Residents we have enough opportunity...most feel we don't. Just because we can draw a second choice pronghorn tag, and hunt general elk and deer, doesn't mean we want to hunt more often in LQ areas.

IMO/E, what the problem is the entitlement attitude the NR hunters have acquired through the years because of our generosity and graciousness. Nothing lasts forever, and the attitude expressed by the likes of jims, mallardsx2 and others only makes Residents want to fight even harder for more opportunity.

Combine that with declining herds, more Residents taking up the sport, more residents applying for tags, and fewer tags being issued...perfect storm for 90-10.

Like I said, the pulse of the room was easy to see...and the side conversations that were happening showed strong support for 90-10 for the big 5. They are using that issue, because is has such broad support, as a way to get something accomplished fast and in front of the Legislature for 2022. If the recommendation passes the Legislature, the law would be put into effect in 2023. It was a bit surprising to see WYOGA support 90-10 so quickly, but they did.

I don't plan to miss a single task force meeting...the opportunity exists to clean up a few big issues and 90-10 is a top priority for the task force.
Thanks for posting this—motivated me to add to the public comment period. Excited to see what changes come.
 

ore hunter

Very Active Member
Jul 25, 2014
714
112
you wyoming guys do have the right to push for what you want in your own state,,i just see this as a "bait and switch " operation for the non res that has been building points for 20 years...also buzz,,how would there be wayyy more elk tags for non res with the 90-10 rule vs the way it is now like you said a few post up from here??how would general elk be easyer to draw??
 

Fink

Veteran member
Apr 7, 2011
1,959
190
West Side, MoMo
If 90-10 happened for elk, you'd likely draw a general tag sooner...there would be wayyy more general tags available to NR's.
I'm not following, is this because non residents are guaranteed a certain number of tags - the total quota would just be far fewer limited quota tags, and the balance made up with additional general tags?
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
696
460
you wyoming guys do have the right to push for what you want in your own state,,i just see this as a "bait and switch " operation for the non res that has been building points for 20 years...also buzz,,how would there be wayyy more elk tags for non res with the 90-10 rule vs the way it is now like you said a few post up from here??how would general elk be easyer to draw??
Regulation...7,250 full priced tags available to NR's in the initial draw.

Chapter 44...

(iv) Elk. A total license limit of seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) nonresident elk licenses shall be made available to nonresident applicants in the initial drawing each year. Reduced price cow/calf elk licenses and limited quota elk licenses remaining after the initial drawing may be made available to nonresidents in addition to the limit of seven thousand two hundred fifty (7,250). Sixteen percent (16%) of the total available limited quota full price and reduced price cow/calf elk licenses shall initially be offered to nonresidents in the nonresident elk initial drawing. The order of the nonresident elk initial drawings described in this section shall be Nonresident Landowner Licenses, Nonresident Special Licenses, and then Nonresident Regular Licenses. Following the Nonresident Landowner License Drawing, licenses available in the initial drawing from the seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) limit shall be allocated as follows: The allocation of remaining licenses after the nonresident landowner drawing shall be forty percent (40%) to the Nonresident Special License Drawing and sixty percent (60%) to the Nonresident Regular License Drawing. If the seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) license quota is not issued in the initial nonresident drawings, the Department may achieve the seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) license quota by issuing nonresident general elk licenses. Licenses remaining for limited quota areas resulting from this procedure may be made available in the resident elk initial drawing.
 

280ackimp

Active Member
Jul 4, 2017
163
17
New Hampshire
Lots of questions ...

1. What are the actual numbers of tags being reduced if adopted? Elk, Deer, and Antelope?
2.The travel and tourism association of Wyoming must have something to say about this as they will lose if this comes to fruition?
3. Someone must have an economic value assigned to each NR tag?

4. Why would WOGA support the BIG 5 and possibly e/d/a for 90/10 as it means fewer clients for members?

-Cost for the BIG 5 and likely the e/d/a NR hunts probably will increase significantly just due smaller capacity. What if the WGOA gets any level of control over the tags? Decreasing availability will leverage prices. With the low numbers of BIG 5 NR tags issued will it have a real impact on us?

Finally, if a business in this case WOGA members, has fewer clients they are even further at risk if the state reduces tag numbers for yearly factors such as drought and herd sizes? This WOGA support for 90/10 doesn't seem thought out well at all?

Once again what will the losses look like on a per person per year basis for outfitters and tourism in WY?
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
696
460
Lots of questions ...

1. What are the actual numbers of tags being reduced if adopted? Elk, Deer, and Antelope?
2.The travel and tourism association of Wyoming must have something to say about this as they will lose if this comes to fruition?
3. Someone must have an economic value assigned to each NR tag?

4. Why would WOGA support the BIG 5 and possibly e/d/a for 90/10 as it means fewer clients for members?

-Cost for the BIG 5 and likely the e/d/a NR hunts probably will increase significantly just due smaller capacity. What if the WGOA gets any level of control over the tags? Decreasing availability will leverage prices. With the low numbers of BIG 5 NR tags issued will it have a real impact on us?

Finally, if a business in this case WOGA members, has fewer clients they are even further at risk if the state reduces tag numbers for yearly factors such as drought and herd sizes? This WOGA support for 90/10 doesn't seem thought out well at all?

Once again what will the losses look like on a per person per year basis for outfitters and tourism in WY?
1. for the big 5 at current tag allocations...116 more tags for R.
2. IMO, when they start providing a single penny to the funding of the State wildlife or State lands, they have a voice. Until then, they get what they get. Hard to complain about the free lunch they get...and THIS will be brought up to the task force. Wyoming wildlife is funded 100% by Sportsmen in Wyoming, we got ZERO general fund money for management. Hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc. need to start packing their own water and stepping up with some funding to the GF and State Lands office...they make money off both and pay zero for it.
3. Outfitters have a report of sorts...not apples to apples IMO but there is going to be information available for sure.
4. For the big-5 they may get more clients. Lots of Residents that draw are pretty long in the tooth, and not equipped to hunt sheep, bison, goats and moose...lots of Residents use guides for all those species. That's why they didn't care, plus it gives their kids/grandkids a better chance to draw, which is high on Sy Gilliland's list (and I happen to agree with him on that).
 
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sigpros

Very Active Member
Aug 10, 2011
507
119
missouri
1. for the big 5 at current tag allocations...116 more tags for R.
2. IMO, when they start providing a single penny to the funding of the State wildlife or State lands, they have a voice. Until then, they get what they get. Hard to complain about the free lunch they get...and THIS will be brought up to the task force. Wyoming wildlife is funded 100% by Sportsmen in Wyoming, we got ZERO general fund money for management. Hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc. need to start packing their own water and stepping up with some funding to the GF and State Lands office...they make money off both and pay zero for it.
3. Outfitters have a report of sorts...not apples to apples IMO but there is going to be information available for sure.
4. For the big-5 they may get more clients. Lots of Residents that draw are pretty long in the tooth, and not equipped to hunt sheep, bison, goats and moose...lots of Residents use guides for all those species. That's why they didn't care, plus it gives their kids/grandkids a better chance to draw, which is high on Sy Gilliland's list (and I happen to agree with him on that).
Since I don’t know where does the money from NR go if it doesn’t fund wildlife in the state of Wyoming? And drawing odds for a NR are getting worse every year. I can’t even draw a tag to take my boy hunting the last 2 years. Sad news is hunting is on life support. It sadly has become too much of a money game and people are getting priced out. I don’t know what the answer is the state makes too much money on PP I don’t see them going away. I see PP coming for the reduced tags because of the money it will generate and people will jump on them.
 

jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
219
89
Buzz, I call BS! Why the heck would outfitters be in favor of slitting their wrists allowing 90/10 for the Big 5? I know lots of Wyo residents that have drawn sheep, goat, moose, and bison tags and none of them have hired a guide! Pretty lousy reasoning! Buzz did you hire a guide on your recent Wyo sheep hunt? I'm 99% sure the outfitters have a different agenda on their mind if they actually are in favor of big 5 going to 90/10. I bet there are plenty of scenarios and compromises being discussed between task force members over a beer and behind closed doors!

You can be assured there are a few red flags being raised when outfitter and landowner tags are brought up! Do you think they have anything to do with some of the sloppy stuff going on?
 

JM77

Member
Apr 25, 2016
99
25
Casper, Wyoming
Buzz, I call BS! Why the heck would outfitters be in favor of slitting their wrists allowing 90/10 for the Big 5? I know lots of Wyo residents that have drawn sheep, goat, moose, and bison tags and none of them have hired a guide! Pretty lousy reasoning! Buzz did you hire a guide on your recent Wyo sheep hunt? I'm 99% sure the outfitters have a different agenda on their mind if they actually are in favor of big 5 going to 90/10. I bet there are plenty of scenarios and compromises being discussed between task force members over a beer and behind closed doors!

You can be assured there are a few red flags being raised when outfitter and landowner tags are brought up! Do you think they have anything to do with some of the sloppy stuff going on?
I was right there when the President of WYOGA said the outfitters would support 90/10 for the big 5. The only BS is coming from those who continue to make up their own scenario of what happened.

Some form of 90/10 is going to happen and the outfitters will be asking for something in exchange, but don't be surprised when it isn't rubber stamped by the TF.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
696
460
Buzz, I call BS! Why the heck would outfitters be in favor of slitting their wrists allowing 90/10 for the Big 5? I know lots of Wyo residents that have drawn sheep, goat, moose, and bison tags and none of them have hired a guide! Pretty lousy reasoning! Buzz did you hire a guide on your recent Wyo sheep hunt? I'm 99% sure the outfitters have a different agenda on their mind if they actually are in favor of big 5 going to 90/10. I bet there are plenty of scenarios and compromises being discussed between task force members over a beer and behind closed doors!

You can be assured there are a few red flags being raised when outfitter and landowner tags are brought up! Do you think they have anything to do with some of the sloppy stuff going on?
You can call BS all you want Sebastian...

I was there, in person, and Sy Gilliland was speaking on behalf of WOGA...in full support of 90-10 for the big 5. They know the same thing, more and more Residents are hiring outfitters for sheep, moose, goat, and bison. They aren't losing anything...and anyone that's hunted sheep in the Cody area and follows sheep hunting will tell you the same thing. I can't make you listen...talk to some of the sheep outfitters around Cody...and find a clue.

You can listen to the recorded zoom meeting where Sy supports 90-10, or will be able to when they post it. His biggest concern is finding a way for his grandkids to hunt sheep and moose...and he knows what everyone else in WY knows, the only way to make that happen, or significantly increase the chance of it happening for younger Resident hunters, is 90-10 (and I agree with Sy on that particular issue).

I get it, you feel betrayed by WOGA and the outfitters...you were warned a long time ago and you didn't listen then, and you aren't listening now. Which is on par with you...you have 2 ears and one mouth and routinely use them in the incorrect proportion.

I can also tell you that your outfitter buddies will pass 90-10 for deer, elk, and pronghorn if we give them what they want...outfitter set asides and/or transferable landowner tags. They'll kick guys like you to the curb in a heartbeat without giving you and every other DIY guy a second thought...and that's a fact.

Your only defense from that happening is going to come from Residents and how much they can influence an 18 person Task Force that has a bunch of outfitters and ex-outfitters on it. You may want to give that some serious thought before shooting your mouth...and yourself in the foot.

Lashing out at the messenger, and the people attending the meetings is not going to help you...get over it.
 

jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
219
89
I'm not calling BS that this happened.....I'm calling BS that there is something fishy going on by outfitters doing this! Doesn't this raise a few red flags?

I'm certain DIY nonres hunters are well aware of the fact that outfitters were the group that initiated the guide in wilderness laws that currently exist in Wyo. It would not be surprising that outfitters will attempt a compromise by converting current nonres tags to landowner and/or outfitter tags. As many DIY nonres hunters are aware, this happened in New Mexico a few years ago and is a real possibility in Wyo! It's really unfortunate that DIY nonres have no voice in the Task Force and they have to trust that outfitters will look out for them.

I guess this is why it's important for all concerned DIY nonres to address some of these issues by providing comments when public comments are permitted.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
696
460
I'm not calling BS that this happened.....I'm calling BS that there is something fishy going on by outfitters doing this! Doesn't this raise a few red flags?

I'm certain DIY nonres hunters are well aware of the fact that outfitters were the group that initiated the guide in wilderness laws that currently exist in Wyo. It would not be surprising that outfitters will attempt a compromise by converting current nonres tags to landowner and/or outfitter tags. As many DIY nonres hunters are aware, this happened in New Mexico a few years ago and is a real possibility in Wyo! It's really unfortunate that DIY nonres have no voice in the Task Force and they have to trust that outfitters will look out for them.

I guess this is why it's important for all concerned DIY nonres to address some of these issues by providing comments when public comments are permitted.
Again...you won't listen.

Sy, like a lot of Residents, is more concerned about his grandkids, kids, etc. having more available opportunities at the big 5. He also knows what I'm trying to tell you (unsuccessfully because you fail to put your listening ears on), that 90-10 for the big 5 is NOT going to impact their business.

In fact, having a bunch of old fart Residents, that are in their 50's, 60's, and 70's, that don't own horses, and are physically wearing out, could increase their business. I hunted 26 days before killing a 9 year old ram...and I can tell you that without some help from a good friend, who knows those Cody area units as good as anyone alive on planet earth and has some top mountain horses/mule, it would have been much more difficult for me. I did some of those days solo backpacking and one trip with another friend and saw rams every day...but how and where I killed my ram was not going to be done on foot very easily.

But as per always...you wrongly think outfitters are your friends and you flat won't listen to the people in the know about what's going on. The side conversations are where the real action is...and there's going to be a lot of them going on in the next 18 months.

Put your head in a bucket and listen to your own echo...its what your best at.
 
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jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
219
89
Buzz how many Wyo res like you have similar buddies like you with horses to hunt without a guide when they draw sheep tags? It's even possible to rent horses? Also, do you know how much outfitters in the wilderness areas are charging for their sheep hunts? I don't think there are many Wyo res that are going to fork out $14k to $15,000 for a guided Wyo sheep hunt! Obviously Sy wants his family to draw tags but my guess is there is a lot more to this than that!

My guess is there is a lot of discussion with members of the task force behind closed doors on compromise, outfitter and landowner tags, etc! If outfitters can create and get a guide in wilderness rule passed there is a great chance they can do the same with outfitter and landowner tags that are robbed from BOTH DIY RESIDENT and NONRES hunters! It certainly is possible that outfitters could steel more tags from residents than the tags res will gain from 90/10. What then BUZZZ?

BUZZZ, have I ever said that outfitters are DIY nonres friends? The only thing I've said is that it is a shame that there isn't a DIY nonres on the Task Force and that outfitters are the only people on the task fork that have any interest in nonres.

You can insult and twist things as much as you want...I could really care less. It's the DIY nonres blue collared hunter that I'm standing up for! I really don't think that is a bad thing!

Again, it's important for all concerned DIY nonres to address some of these issues by providing comments when public comments are permitted. I really believe if enough concerned nonres band together we can make a difference!
 
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BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
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Buzz how many Wyo res like you have similar buddies like you with horses to hunt without a guide when they draw sheep tags? It's even possible to rent horses? Also, do you know how much outfitters in the wilderness areas are charging for their sheep hunts? I don't think there are many Wyo res that are going to fork out $14k to $15,000 for a guided Wyo sheep hunt! Obviously Sy wants his family to draw tags but my guess is there is a lot more to this than that!

My guess is there is a lot of discussion with members of the task force behind closed doors on compromise, outfitter and landowner tags, etc! If outfitters can create and get a guide in wilderness rule passed there is a great chance they can do the same with outfitter and landowner tags that are robbed from BOTH DIY RESIDENT and NONRES hunters! It certainly is possible that outfitters could steel more tags from residents than the tags res will gain from 90/10. What then BUZZZ?

BUZZZ, have I ever said that outfitters are DIY nonres friends? The only thing I've said is that it is a shame that there isn't a DIY nonres on the Task Force and that outfitters are the only people on the task fork that have any interest in nonres.

You can insult and twist things as much as you want...I could really care less. It's the DIY nonres blue collared hunter that I'm standing up for! I really don't think that is a bad thing!

Again, it's important for all concerned DIY nonres to address some of these issues by providing comments when public comments are permitted. I really believe if enough concerned nonres band together we can make a difference!
Sebastian, your listening problem is still an on-going problem.

You won't listen...so call some of the outfitters up that way...Josh Mortoglio, Meade Dominick, Corey Fisher, etc. etc. Ask them if Residents are paying for guided sheep hunts. Call tag and drag about how many Resident bison hunters use them.

I wouldn't think a NR DIY guy like you would pay for pronghorn access in 62-2 either...but you do. I'm not in denial that a DIY guy pays for access to hunt a pronghorn. Just because I don't do it, doesn't mean nobody else does.

Let me and the rest of the Resident hunters worry about the other issues in front of the task force...we'll keep you up to speed and you can decide if you want to comment or not.

And lets get one thing straight, the ONLY hunter you're standing up for is Jim Sebastian. Not many of your blue collar pals you claim to be standing up for are forking over $750 trespass fees and special priced pronghorn tags in 62 to party app with you.
 

ScottR

Eastmans' Staff / Moderator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2014
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Gents, keep it civil. I communicate with a lot of you outside the forum, appreciate the friendships I have developed. Buzz would be the first to tell you we haven’t agreed on everything over the years. Pretty good chance that just about everyone is going to have a LOT of feelings on these things, reality is that the climate has changed in recent years. It has put the commission in a place they have to take a hard look at things.

Let’s do our best to listen, take deep breaths and remember that there is a LONG process involved with this. We have a lot of discussion that will come from this task force.
 

go_deep

Veteran member
Nov 30, 2014
2,536
1,708
Wyoming
Before my promotion 2 years ago I spent 7 years going to ranches and houses from the Colorado line up to the Montana most days at work. I've seen at least 100 sheep, mountain goats, moose, and bison on people's walls. I know of 2 sheep, 2 bison, and 6 moose that were taken without an outfitter.
Buzz is right, lots of resident are pretty old, don't have or know someone that's has the equipment needed in most cases.
Take it for what you will, maybe it's not 90% across the board go on outfitted hunts, but the number is a lot higher for Residents going on guided hunts for the big 5 than most realize.