Utah Draw Results, AHHHH EASTMANS FAKEOUT!!!

woodtick

Veteran member
Feb 24, 2011
1,492
0
Jim Bridger County, Utah
So I have the list that Eastmans sends in their MRS section that shows all the deadlines and draw dates pinned up on my office wall and I was getting excited for Utah's draw the end of April(Eastmans have it as the end of April). I was pouring through my credit card statement and was starting to get worried that I didn't even draw my general tag!! I was totally faked out!!! It's not til May and has been for a couple years. I should have known better!!! Anyone else run into this??
 

Ikeepitcold

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 22, 2011
10,028
1,615
Reno Nv
Bummer guys. Sorry about the wrong info. I'll see if I can get some info on what happen on our side. Dang it!
 

shedhead

Member
Mar 9, 2011
59
0
Utah
The tag number for Utah haven't even been set yet. Tag numbers are set by the wildlife board at the May meeting, the first week in May. Draw usually takes place a couple weeks after that. Credit cards have been hit the 3rd week in May the past two years I believe. One more month and we should know.
 

SansSouci

Active Member
Nov 3, 2013
207
0
Recently I talked with a representative of Utah's Wildlife Resources. She told me that the drawing will be in mid-May with results posted by the end of May. I can't wait!
 

D.Turvey Jr

Eastmans' Staff / Moderator
Feb 11, 2014
171
1
Powell, WY


Gentlemen,

I am very happy to see we have such an astute audience! Please reference the most current chart above that was printed in the beginning of each MRS in the journals. When we wrote those states, it was prior to the state having any solid idea of final dates. Note the asterisk in Utah's Deadline Date column and the chart title, then read the note at the bottom of the chart. If the deadline was not final at the time of printing, then we are left to assume the results timeframe is not final as well.

We try to provide the most current information we can but when our print deadline is before or at the same time as the state's deadline, you can see the problem. I am terribly sorry for any confusion but these charts are the most accurate we had at the time of printing. You can always email me if you need further help or clarification at: [email protected]
 

Umpqua Hunter

Veteran member
May 26, 2011
3,576
88
61
North Umpqua, Oregon


Gentlemen,

I am very happy to see we have such an astute audience! Please reference the most current chart above that was printed in the beginning of each MRS in the journals. When we wrote those states, it was prior to the state having any solid idea of final dates. Note the asterisk in Utah's Deadline Date column and the chart title, then read the note at the bottom of the chart. If the deadline was not final at the time of printing, then we are left to assume the results timeframe is not final as well.

We try to provide the most current information we can but when our print deadline is before or at the same time as the state's deadline, you can see the problem. I am terribly sorry for any confusion but these charts are the most accurate we had at the time of printing. You can always email me if you need further help or clarification at: [email protected]
The problem with that explanation is that Utah has released its draw results in late May for years, so based on the history of prior years, "late May" would have been a better anticipated date. Utah charges credit cards before it posts results and in 2012 it was hitting credit cards on May 20 and in 2013 on May 14.

I have seen a few areas where I think the Eastman's MRS needs improvement:

1) Accuracy and Editing: There are OFTEN simple things that like season dates and draw dates that are incorrect. There needs to be a better system of editing and proof checking. I recall a table a few years ago that a large proportion of the season dates were incorrect. I seem to recall it was the Wyoming deer or antelope MRS.

2) Hunt unit ratings: I have often seen unit ratings (blue, green, yellow) that leaves me wondering if the guy doing the write up really understands the units they are providing advice on.

3) Waiting for state reg info to publish: Eastman's often publishes MRS info before the state regs some out. That routinely results in inaccurate info. One of Eastman's main competitors waits until the info is out and tends to be far more accurate in their data. Yes that does lead to a crunch at publishing time, but it's better to have the right info than flawed info.

4) Missing hunts: By trying to jump the regs coming out, often new hunts and units are not even mentioned in the MRS.

I hope Eastman's takes this to heart. This is meant to be constructive, as these are the areas I have routinely seen errors in the MRS.
 

WapitiBob

Veteran member
Mar 1, 2011
1,385
58
Bend, Orygun
I had a long diatribe about the MRS but deleted it because I like the mag and the guys there seem to be regular joes. What I will say, figure out the draws fellas 'cause you're not good at it.

One blatant example is the WY PP graphic:

Wyoming Preference Point Allocation Elk License Allocation (Resident vs. Non-Resident)
Using an example of 100 total tags available, the
preference points pool gets allocated 75, and those
without points are in the draw for the remaining 25.

Every app is in the PP draw, even those with zero points. All apps remaining after the PP draw are in the Random draw, with a new random number.
 

Guy

Eastmans' Staff
Staff member
Feb 21, 2011
192
39
Thanks for the feedback guys. The results date for Utah is incorrect on that chart. Somehow we picked up the old results date from before they moved their draw deadline back a few years ago. It should be in fact "LATE MAY." All the others should be correct. NM just released their results this AM at 10:00 MST, it being the 23rd of April I think "LATE APRIL" fits that bill. Some states hedge their bets on result dates and give the public a worst case scenario just in case they have trouble getting the draw completed or the meetings go on longer than expected. I know WY has released as much as two weeks prior to their "published" results release date.

As for some of the other issues, we work as hard as we can to keep the information as correct as possible. Just keep in mind, most of the information in the MRS is well over a month old by the time you see it in your mailbox and the states are getting better at changing things up at the last minute or mid stream with the onset of the internet and web applications instead of paper. Three times I have been given small errors by WY that where later changed when their information went public on their website.

When it comes to draw odds in different states it can get extremely complicated and they all handle the inner workings of their draw process a bit differently. The states that have "max NR tag percentages" are impossible to calculate accurately. When they yank all of the Non-residents out of the pool at certainly points, like 5% or 10% it creates a very complicated figure to try and wrangle around with. And if they don't supply the number of R and NR applicants in that tag pool, it can be almost impossible to accurately calculate. So in some cases, such as NM, ID and AZ a general, "average draw odd" on first choice applicants is about as good as it gets.

As for the NM draw odds, they came directly from the NM state statistician. She has access to variables that are not made public, making it tough/impossible to replicate her figures with given public information.

Wapiti's summarization of the WY chart is more incorrect than the chart is. There are a few words in that diagram that need changed, but the main information is correct enough for the 99.9% of the readers and what they want to know. Of the 100 NR tags available to NR hunters, 45 would go to PP "Regular" draw applicants, 30 tags would go to the PP Special applicants, while 15 tags would go into the hands of random "Regular" draw applicants and 10 tags would go to the "Special" random draw applicants. A different outcome can occur if the number of applicants does not exceed the number of tags available and it does make a slight difference as to the order that they conduct the drawing at times. But for the most part, that is how the draw allocation breaks down for a vast majority of the best elk areas with the hard to get tags. I will work on firming up that verbiage to clarify it further for next year.

Again, just bare in mind, that most of this information can be almost two months old by the time it hits your doorstep. The printer needs 10-14 days to print and bind the publication and the USPS needs 21 days or more to deliver the book to your doorstep, particularly if you are on either coast. Our moto is: we would rather have it in your mailbox with a few minor inaccuracies at least 30 days prior to the draw deadline, than take a risk and have it delivered even one hour after the draw deadline has already passed.

I hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion.

G-
 

Elkoholic307

Banned
Feb 25, 2011
1,217
1
Base of the Bighorns
The problem with that explanation is that Utah has released its draw results in late May for years, so based on the history of prior years, "late May" would have been a better anticipated date. Utah charges credit cards before it posts results and in 2012 it was hitting credit cards on May 20 and in 2013 on May 14.

I have seen a few areas where I think the Eastman's MRS needs improvement:

1) Accuracy and Editing: There are OFTEN simple things that like season dates and draw dates that are incorrect. There needs to be a better system of editing and proof checking. I recall a table a few years ago that a large proportion of the season dates were incorrect. I seem to recall it was the Wyoming deer or antelope MRS.

2) Hunt unit ratings: I have often seen unit ratings (blue, green, yellow) that leaves me wondering if the guy doing the write up really understands the units they are providing advice on.

3) Waiting for state reg info to publish: Eastman's often publishes MRS info before the state regs some out. That routinely results in inaccurate info. One of Eastman's main competitors waits until the info is out and tends to be far more accurate in their data. Yes that does lead to a crunch at publishing time, but it's better to have the right info than flawed info.

4) Missing hunts: By trying to jump the regs coming out, often new hunts and units are not even mentioned in the MRS.

I hope Eastman's takes this to heart. This is meant to be constructive, as these are the areas I have routinely seen errors in the MRS.
Umpqua, you should have your own magazine. I'd subscribe for sure.
 

Musket Man

Veteran member
Jul 20, 2011
6,457
0
colfax, wa
I understand it is difficult to get the MRS put together with the latest info when some states put out the past years stats and info so close to the draw deadline, and still get it out to us in time to be useful for the draw. I also understand putting that much info together accurately without any errors is difficult as well. You guys do a great job with the MRS but I do notice errors in many MRS's that could be easily corrected (example there are several incorrect season dates in the Nevada MRS). I would be willing to volunteer to help with going over the MRS before it goes to print.
 

D.Turvey Jr

Eastmans' Staff / Moderator
Feb 11, 2014
171
1
Powell, WY
I understand it is difficult to get the MRS put together with the latest info when some states put out the past years stats and info so close to the draw deadline, and still get it out to us in time to be useful for the draw. I also understand putting that much info together accurately without any errors is difficult as well. You guys do a great job with the MRS but I do notice errors in many MRS's that could be easily corrected (example there are several incorrect season dates in the Nevada MRS). I would be willing to volunteer to help with going over the MRS before it goes to print.
We very well may take you up on that.
 

WapitiBob

Veteran member
Mar 1, 2011
1,385
58
Bend, Orygun
I don't usually take things personal, but then sometimes I do.

Straigt cut n paste from the 2014 WY MRS, as posted above:

"Wyoming Preference Point Allocation Elk License Allocation (Resident vs. Non-Resident)
Using an example of 100 total tags available, the
preference points pool gets allocated 75, and those
without points are in the draw for the remaining 25
."

The fact is, every app is in the PP draw regardless of their point total, including those with zero points.
Another fact: "All apps remaining after the PP draw are in the Random draw, with a new random number."

I didn't address the individual special/random breakdowns because they weren't part of the MRS sentences I quoted. I could have clarified the "all apps remaining" to include "for a given hunt" but didn't. If you think I'm wrong on my two statements above, I'd be more than happy to be in a conference call with you and Millissa Raner of the Dept. And while were on the phone I can have her explain the NR draw process to you so you publish accurate GEN elk odds instead of simply cut n paste off the draw reports like everybody else does.
 
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Topgun 30-06

Banned
Jun 12, 2013
1,353
1
Allegan, MI
WB---Can I assume in your last comment you're referring to where the last several years the MRS has stated that applicants that pay the special price and put the general tag for their second choice have about a 2 out of 3 chance of drawing the general tag? In fact, the actual stats show that the last few years those applicants have all drawn a tag and in 2013 some even drew it as their third choice. Thus the 2 of 3 chance statement is way off! I would also have to agree with you that what has been stated in referance to your comment is incorrect and makes it appear that whoever is doing the Wyoming stats needs a little more time or information to know how the draw works. I don't know of anyone out there that knows more about the Wyoming draw system than you do and I know from our conversations that a lot of your knowledge has been obtained from direct conversations with Wyoming staff that run the draw.
PS: I also noticed that one set of stats above in one magazine shows the draw results for NM as late June and the other is accurate in that it is in late April.
 
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