Tuning and Arrow Weight

[HighPlainsHunter]

I have a bowtech captain that I am trying to tune and wondered if anyone might have a suggestion on what to try next. Purchased in Casper at LC Bishop back in 2011, I have had it restrung once about 4 years ago but it did not change anything. I have always been able to get pretty good groups with this bow but I have always felt like there was something not quite right with the arrow flight and sometimes you can see arrows in my groups that are not perfectly parallel. I can still get 4" groups at 40 yards but I know it's capable of better if tuned properly and I do my part.

It is adjusted for 30" draw and not quite maxed out on the limbs so I would guess around 65 pound draw weight with a whisker biscuit rest. I shoot 31" arrows, Carbon Force STL hunter 300, with 100 grain tips. I get 27 grams on my postage scale which works out to about 415 grains total arrow weight. I also have some 30" cheap arrows from wal mart which shoot nearly the same as the Carbon Force do as far as point of impact but are a little heavier.

I hadn't shot much the last few years and after shooting the last couple of weeks I have decided to try to make adjustments. I tried doing some paper tuning but am getting different results on paper which leads me to believe I may have an issue with my arrow setup. I'm getting both tail left and tail right as well as some that are near perfect. I have laid the bow out on a flat piece of granite and the rest is aligned with the string as best as I can see so I do not think it is the issue or needs to be moved. I shoot out well past 50 yards which also leads me to believe it's not a rest alignment issue. I've also checked the nocking point and it appears straight using the alignment arrow, plus I am not getting much of any tail high or tail low so I don't think up an down is the issue here.

Anything about that setup seem odd or throw up red flags? Maybe 100 gain tips are too light?

 

[Slugz]

Whats your FOC?

What kind/length of vanes?

Do you have a drop away you could throw on it to test?

No real big red flags and can offer my own experience with an older 82 Airborne........it shot 3-4 inch groups at 40-50 yards consistently. All tuned perfect.

I swapped my accessories over to my new Bowtech and was less than an inch immediately.......my gut is you are seeing the forgiveness or lack thereof of an older bow vice the newer models.

Or I could be completely wrong also

 

[badgerbob]

Considering your erratic paper tuning groups I am wondering if you have a gripping issue. Make sure you are gripping correctly and the same every time. This was the single most difficult thing for me to overcome. I would replace the whisker biscuit with a drop away, I'm partial to Rip Cord. You are correct in not adjusting your rest. It would do no good until you are shooting consistent paper groups. I would take it to a bow shop which has a bow holding device to paper tune. That way it removes all possibility of human error. Another thing, I bought a new RPM 360 and picked it up at the factory two years ago. The guy in the pro shop there told me to max out the poundage because it would be more accurate. Make sure those arrows are splined correctly for your poundage and broadhead weight. I shoot Beeman ICS Hunters 27.5 in with Savora 100gr broadheads. I'm wondering if that 300 arrow you are shooting is stiff enough considering it's 31". Carbon Force should have a chart that will set you right there. Although it can be frustrating, making these things shoot is half the fun of bow hunting, for me at least. Keep at it, you'll get it where you want it and good luck. BB

 

[Hilltop]

All mentioned above but to put simply, you have an issue with your rest, your grip, your release, or any combination of these. Like mentioned above, I would put a drop away on there to start with. I'm partial to the QAD.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

Thanks for the tips fellas. I am going to keep looking at anything/everything until I find the issue. I will really focus on my grip as I agree it could cause erratic results. I am going to stick with the WB rest as I really like the simplicity, but I did notice I am getting some damage on the left side of the WB which would also seem to indicate an alignment issue. I double checked the arrow chart from carbon force and it appears I have the correct shaft. My arrows have the longer fetching but I do not know the FOC. This particular model bow is somewhat known as a difficult to tune bow on some of the reviews I have read so it may not be as forgiving as some of the newer models but I"m going to have to figure out a way to make this work as a new bow is not in the budget this year. It appears this particular model was known for having to adjust the rest way to the right of center to get it to shoot well which I hated to hear.

this post was particularly troubling.
this is all the reason why the captain was disscontinued. all 2009 centerpivots had this problem. in 2010 they brought out the flex rolloer gaurd to fix the problem. the captain for some reason didnt get it though. in 2011 they droped them all. the problem is tourqe that is so bad that it can flex the riser. i had this problem on my 2009 sentinel. the only fix is to convert it to a shoot through system. back in 2009 tap enginered a roller gaurd that was y shaped and put the cables left and right . you also had to swap out a cam to have two identical cams. this eleminated all tourqe and puts the center shot dead center. your bow will never tune and dont believe otherwise unless you convert it. good luck , my advise is to get rid of it or convert it.

 

[Hilltop]

If you have a Scheels close to you, take it to their bow guys. They will figure it out and tune it for free, no questions asked. They have amazing customer service and are willing to help even if they didn't sell the bow.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

During the most recent measuring session it was determined the the issue is likely a tweaked riser. I elevated the bow on 4 - 1/2 pieces of square tubing so none of the hardware would touch the table and noticed it did not sit perfectly flat. I checked this on 3 different surfaces and all had the same results. Essentially the limbs are not perfectly aligned with each other. I don't know if I somehow did this or it was caused by the torque mentioned above due to the string design that was later discontinued but that explains the erratic arrow flight and noise I was noticing. Also explains why nothing I did seemed to really help the situation but it still shot OK.

Apparently Bowtech made an improved FLX roller guard to fix this issue on the destroyers, admiral and sentinel for 2010 but left the Captain with the faulty design and no fix.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

If you have a Scheels close to you, take it to their bow guys. They will figure it out and tune it for free, no questions asked. They have amazing customer service and are willing to help even if they didn't sell the bow.

That's good to know. Thanks for the tip.

 

[87TT]

"I am going to stick with the WB rest as I really like the simplicity,"
That's what I thought too. I finally got a QAD and man what a difference. I will never go back to a biscuit. My biggest bad habit is grip torque and trying to peek at the arrow flight causing a hit to the right.

 

[badgerbob]

The damage to one side of your wb makes me think you are gripping in a manner that allows the arrow to be released to one side of the rest. I have seen this very thing before on a Mission bow a friend had. I think your bow is being held at a slight angle, instead of straight at the target. Does this make sense? A drop away release is more forgiving in that it is not in contact with the arrow on release. Although if sounds like there are other issues with this bow, I am pretty sure your group will tighten with a drop away rest. If it were me I would get the best drop away I could afford planning on using it on new bow when upgrade is affordable.

 

[HighPlainsHunter]

The damage to one side of your wb makes me think you are gripping in a manner that allows the arrow to be released to one side of the rest. I have seen this very thing before on a Mission bow a friend had. I think your bow is being held at a slight angle, instead of straight at the target. Does this make sense? A drop away release is more forgiving in that it is not in contact with the arrow on release. Although if sounds like there are other issues with this bow, I am pretty sure your group will tighten with a drop away rest. If it were me I would get the best drop away I could afford planning on using it on new bow when upgrade is affordable.

I appreciate the thoughts and yes I understand exactly what you are referring to. I have no doubt the drop away rests are more accurate. I am a pretty experienced shooter for 20+ years and often shoot open handed so I really make an effort not to torque the bow but anything is possible. I never had any issues with my old High Country from the late 80's as far as torque when shooting but maybe I have developed a bad habit I Am not aware of. I just get the feeling that something wasn't' right with this bow a few years ago and it seems to be getting worse now that I picked it back up after not having time to do much shooting the last few years. I have half a dozen arrows I broke shooting tight groups with this bow when I first got it and now I struggle to get a 4" group, and I feel like I am holding just as steady. I was not happy when I noticed it would not sit flat on the table but at least know I finally found something that was wrong. The internet search was the worst part as it sounds like this was a wide spread issue with this particular design which was later discontinued. I think you are right about the torque, but I believe it may be caused by the faulty cable design which has ultimately led to the riser being out of square.

What I believe may be the cause of the damage to the WB is a result of having the rest adjusted right of center between 1/4 and 1/2" which after reading is very common with these bows which I assume is due to the torque issue with the cables. Seems like a compensation for torque that is caused by the cable design IMO. After over a thousand shots with the arrow not coming through perfectly straight it is finally showing wear. If I was getting damage to my fetching I would agree that it's a WB issue but I have had success with them in the past and like simple. I also can see how other designs may be more forgiving as well. It's funny reading the discussions on the archery sites on WB vs drop away as there are certainly some in both camps who believe strongly. I'll certainly try it if my next used bow comes with one.

 

[badgerbob]

That makes sense...….cause and effect are very interesting in the archery world. It's way more complicated than a stick and a string. It sounds to me like a new bow is in your future????? Good luck.