Sources of Revenue for Wyoming Game and Fish

[BuzzH]

. I was one of those guys who got in on the ground floor and didn't worry about others. Now with kids and grand kids, I think that something has to be done to give everyone a fair chance.

Right, and you still aren't worrying about others, you're worried NOW about your kids and grandkids.

What do you do about the others that also started on the ground floor who still haven't drawn? What about this with one less than max points, 2 less than max points,....etc. etc. etc.

Trust me, there was plenty of opposition to point systems but a bunch of "now thinking" whiners created them to suit their needs at the time, with NO thought to the future ramifications.

I will give you a huge thumbs up for admitting that you were part of the problem, most never do that. That's refreshing to hear someone make that statement, well done. In fairness, you, me, nobody else realized the amount of people that would participate in these systems either when they started. Or that demand would increase like this, or that tag numbers would dry up like they have in many cases.

But the tough question now is how to change things to not punish those that have been in the points game and still havent drawn? Its tough to change it and not create yet another unfair situation.

I never have liked point systems for this reason, they always change, and that's more unfair than starting them in the first place.

 

[dan maule]

Right, and you still aren't worrying about others, you're worried NOW about your kids and grandkids.

What do you do about the others that also started on the ground floor who still haven't drawn? What about this with one less than max points, 2 less than max points,....etc. etc. etc.

Trust me, there was plenty of opposition to point systems but a bunch of "now thinking" whiners created them to suit their needs at the time, with NO thought to the future ramifications.

I will give you a huge thumbs up for admitting that you were part of the problem, most never do that. That's refreshing to hear someone make that statement, well done. In fairness, you, me, nobody else realized the amount of people that would participate in these systems either when they started. Or that demand would increase like this, or that tag numbers would dry up like they have in many cases.

But the tough question now is how to change things to not punish those that have been in the points game and still havent drawn? Its tough to change it and not create yet another unfair situation.

I never have liked point systems for this reason, they always change, and that's more unfair than starting them in the first place.

I also was one of those guys who was really excited when Wyoming first started the PP system, got in on the ground floor got a good tag at max points (at the time) but now I believe it is a loosing proposition. In my ignorance I grossly underestimated just how big the pool of points would get. I wish it would go back to a totally random drawing. I would like to see them abolish the system by stop selling points, continue with the PP drawings until all points are used up then go to a random draw, and since the Game and Fish is now hooked on the revenue, just increase the application fee to maintain the revenue.

 

[tim]

There is more than game and fish hooked on the revenue, what happens to everyone with points, if the state just moves back to a random draw?

River permits are a lot like hunting tags, there is usually a lottery. I was on the grand canyon waiting list for 6 years, when they went away from that style. It turned into a random draw, but i had points. You could not gain anymore poinnts, but you kept your points. I don't know if the states could go back to something like that, a weighted random lottery. Eventually everyone with points would weed them selves out.

Some people want Idaho to go to some kind of point system. So, as we always knew. That states can not please everyone.

 

[Bonecollector]

Right, and you still aren't worrying about others, you're worried NOW about your kids and grandkids.

What do you do about the others that also started on the ground floor who still haven't drawn? What about this with one less than max points, 2 less than max points,....etc. etc. etc.

Trust me, there was plenty of opposition to point systems but a bunch of "now thinking" whiners created them to suit their needs at the time, with NO thought to the future ramifications.

I will give you a huge thumbs up for admitting that you were part of the problem, most never do that. That's refreshing to hear someone make that statement, well done. In fairness, you, me, nobody else realized the amount of people that would participate in these systems either when they started. Or that demand would increase like this, or that tag numbers would dry up like they have in many cases.

But the tough question now is how to change things to not punish those that have been in the points game and still havent drawn? Its tough to change it and not create yet another unfair situation.

I never have liked point systems for this reason, they always change, and that's more unfair than starting them in the first place.

I understand the points you’re making but that was a bit harsh I must say (IMHO). Not all of us live out west and sit on various boards and have the time and money to help facilitate these changes whether it’s been 40 years ago or presently. Some of us do what we can and obviously some do nothing.

However some of ‘us’ do reside in these states, sit on various boards, and they’re excellent orators on all the legislation, laws, and local unspoken ordinances and we’re all in the same chit pot aren’t we....
Not trying to start an argument because you’re better versed on the this particular subject than I.
However a little tact and class will go along way.
I’d like to hear some possible solutions that are being discussed or is there nothing on the horizon at this point. Casting stones will solve nothing. It doesn’t matter how we got here, the problem is understood it’s the solution we need to work together to find.

 

[BuzzH]

I understand the points you’re making but that was a bit harsh I must say (IMHO). Not all of us live out west and sit on various boards and have the time and money to help facilitate these changes whether it’s been 40 years ago or presently. Some of us do what we can and obviously some do nothing.

However some of ‘us’ do reside in these states, sit on various boards, and they’re excellent orators on all the legislation, laws, and local unspoken ordinances and we’re all in the same chit pot aren’t we....
Not trying to start an argument because you’re better versed on the this particular subject than I.
However a little tact and class will go along way.
I’d like to hear some possible solutions that are being discussed or is there nothing on the horizon at this point. Casting stones will solve nothing. It doesn’t matter how we got here, the problem is understood it’s the solution we need to work together to find.

I don't think it was harsh at all, I totally gave BKC a huge thumbs up for admitting that he was in fact part of the problem. Also pointing out that once again, there is no thought being given to those that have participated in the system from the get-go. There often times isnt much thought put into these point schemes until the reality hits everyone between the running lights. There are things that need to be recognized and thought about BEFORE, we all find ourselves in the same chit pot together.

I don't know what the solutions are to these point problems, the problems are different if you're a resident, different if you're a non resident, if you're on the ground floor, If you're somewhere in the middle of the point system, if you're new to hunting, a youth hunter, what species, tag allocations, all change the perspective and potential "fixes". I also concede that not everything that is happening now could have been predicted. For instance, Wyoming was issuing over 2000 moose permits in 1978...now not even 400. That changes things in regard to a point system working, or not working...wouldn't you agree? But who would have guessed that from 1978 to 2020, we'd lose 1600+ moose licenses a year?

But, no matter how you CHANGE a point system AFTER they've been implemented, someone is getting bent over by the new change.

 

[mallardsx2]

Only thing I would think would be "fair" would be if they went to a 100% random drawing and stopped selling points all together and just threw your name in the hat with your current points (I have 6 points, my name goes into the drawing 6 times). That would be ok in my book I guess. It takes away from me (current point holder) a little but it would still provide your average joe a chance at drawing the tag. Eventually the point holders would draw out and be eliminated. "I.E the bonus point system" except they would not sell more points. Not selling more points is obviously the key to getting back to a true random drawing where everyone has equal chances.

Reality is that they will likely NEVER get away from selling points because its just too big of a cash cow for them.

IMHO they need to split up the tags on top of this above and make people choose if they want to hunt with a gun or a bow and do away with the archery stamp completely. That would add more tags to the mix, generate more revenue, and spread out the hunting pressure dramatically. Even if this was for non-residents only I would still be in favor of this change.

 

[Yell Co AR Hunter]

You would think the point system would take care of it's self at some point. The demand for certain game and units is what keeps it going for now. If people really put the numbers to it I think it has about reached an end. Then again there are a lot that just buy points and never look at the numbers. It must be the thinking of I will one day draw the tag. Problem for many of us is time. We just do not have enough time left.
I notice it takes about 3 PP to draw a general elk tag now. Also it is taking a couple points to draw antelope units listed as limited access. I do not know the answer, but as long as the profits are there. Wyoming is going to keep the game going.

 

[JimP]

Wyoming is no different than any other state out there where there are hunters who what to hunt what Wyoming offers. At least now for the time being they don't require you to purchase a hunting license to put in for the draw.

The bigger problem is that when you only have so many tags that can be drawn and more and more hunters that are trying to draw those tags you are going to have problems. In the states where there are no point systems you have those who are griping about not being able to draw a tag, then you have the lucky ones that draw one every time they even think of putting in for one. Now people are complaining about the number of points that it takes to draw the tag. You are never going to please everyone.

As for having to pay for the opportunity to have a point, I have no problem with that as long as the cost is reasonable. The G&F departments of all the states need to get revenue from someplace and with the state legislatures moving money away from the G&F to spend elsewhere where are they going to get it if not by increasing fees. Sure we all complain about it being non residents but that is the cost that we have to pay to hunt other states that we only visit for a few day each year if even that.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Well said my friend.

 

[nv-hunter]

We just had this point discussion at work . I'll be honest the only place I have any points is Wy and just for antelope so I can take one trip at some point just to experience it. I do apply in Id for moose but that's it for out of state hunts. I walked away from points in Or just do to lack of quality hunts. I like Nv system and it has worked for me even tho I didn't get in on the ground floor. I just pick areas that I can hunt every couple of years and I get a tag. I think the waiting periods are fair for bull elk and buck antelope its helped allow more people to get tags. My only change I would make in Nv would be to bust up some of the unit groups in to small areas and limit tags to those units to decrease hunting pressure as some areas it seems like its bring your own rock while there is nobody in other areas.
I looked at Co and with those numbers it wasn't worth the costs and Ut gives too many tags to special interests groups so I saved the money. The only place I would think about applying is Az for couse (sp?) deer or jalavina.

 

[JimP]

A nice thing about Arizona is that if you archery hunt you can draw a javelina tag and hunt quail at the same time in January, you then have the hunting license to put in for the draws. I've been doing that for 27 years now but instead of archery hunting javelina I will do the HAM's hunt (handgun, archery, muzzle loader). It is a nice change of pace going down there in February and getting out of the snow and cold here in Colorado.

 

[tim]

Why are you folks against the game dept's making money?
How do you expect them to replace buildings and trucks and computers with out turning a profit?

 

[HuskyMusky]

Why are you folks against the game dept's making money?
How do you expect them to replace buildings and trucks and computers with out turning a profit?

I do believe ID has an option to buy leftover non-res permits at that non-res price.....at least they did at one point I read, which is akin to my point about just raise prices on everyone and let the cash poor in....

they probably could be making A LOT more $$$ if they really wanted to/be greedy.

 

[HuskyMusky]

not to be morbid....but eventually max point holders will die/stop applying/some will draw....although I'm not sure how many 70-90+yr olds are still gaining points?

I wonder if many just give up? or draw a cow/doe with their points?

I use to count on say WY moose numbers to be better in the future than they are now.....but with wolves and politics... I'm not sure.... but hopefully management can increase tag numbers.

 

[tim]

I have killed a lot of bulls in idaho with the ability for residents to buy non resident tags at non resident rates. I would buy it at $1000.00 if that is what they raised the price to. I do believe, that if you want to play, you got to pay.

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

I’m thinking my nonres hunting is numbered myself!! Dropping out of everything Utah, hopefully get Colorado deer and Arizona coues this year then all I will have is Arizona elk!! Then I’ll be content with what the great state of Wyoming offers!!

 

[BKC]

I don't think it was harsh at all, I totally gave BKC a huge thumbs up for admitting that he was in fact part of the problem. Also pointing out that once again, there is no thought being given to those that have participated in the system from the get-go. There often times isnt much thought put into these point schemes until the reality hits everyone between the running lights. There are things that need to be recognized and thought about BEFORE, we all find ourselves in the same chit pot together.

I don't know what the solutions are to these point problems, the problems are different if you're a resident, different if you're a non resident, if you're on the ground floor, If you're somewhere in the middle of the point system, if you're new to hunting, a youth hunter, what species, tag allocations, all change the perspective and potential "fixes". I also concede that not everything that is happening now could have been predicted. For instance, Wyoming was issuing over 2000 moose permits in 1978...now not even 400. That changes things in regard to a point system working, or not working...wouldn't you agree? But who would have guessed that from 1978 to 2020, we'd lose 1600+ moose licenses a year?

But, no matter how you CHANGE a point system AFTER they've been implemented, someone is getting bent over by the new change.

I was gone for a while and quite surprised to see responses to my post. Who said that I was part of the problem. I'm not admitting to being a part of the problem. I see the problem that others have created. The problem expands every year and affects everyone. Yes, my kids and grand kids along with everybody's kids and grand kids are affected. Do not make it sound as if I am one of the whiners. I put up with a system that is not perfect, not even close. I have benefitted from a system that is the same system everyone else has to deal with, check out my albums. Buzz, you might want to go bark up a different tree.

 

[BuzzH]

I was gone for a while and quite surprised to see responses to my post. Who said that I was part of the problem. I'm not admitting to being a part of the problem. I see the problem that others have created. The problem expands every year and affects everyone. Yes, my kids and grand kids along with everybody's kids and grand kids are affected. Do not make it sound as if I am one of the whiners. I put up with a system that is not perfect, not even close. I have benefitted from a system that is the same system everyone else has to deal with, check out my albums. Buzz, you might want to go bark up a different tree.

Well, then I apologize for thinking you weren't somebody that just took advantage of, and supported the system when it was to your benefit, but want to change it since you got yours. Same as everyone else I guess.

Too bad about your kids and grandkids...should have thought about that a long time ago.

Good luck changing the system to suit you, who has already drawn, your kids and grandkids...those that still haven't benefitted from the same system you did will make it tough sledding for changes. Get used to you, your kids, and grandkids hunting OTC units, easier to draw units, squirrels and such. That's reality, because they aren't going to hunt the tags that take lots of points to draw.

You reap what you sew...

 

[Alan Leone]

Unfortunately there is no perfect answer, someone will always complain about on thing or another. If paying towards a point system helps Game and Fish protect wildlife from those who cheat us all of opportunities then count me in. Some tags I think should be a once in a lifetime draw in that State but that's just my opinion and you know what that's worth, LOL.
Good luck in the draws this year!

 

[Granby guy]

Arkansas public land is around around 20%. The 9.4% looks correct on federal and places Arkansas at #18. I understand It is not like the Western states, but offers a lot of public hunting when you look at all the states. That is not the real point I was trying to make. The point was it is federal land not state land. I feel all Americans should have the ability to hunt federal lands. I also feel several states restrict our ability to hunt by unfair tag allocations. Just my feelings and it is ok if others don't agree.

NR have full access to the federal lands out West but having access to the land doesn’t mandate that you should have unlimited access to the tags.