I'm 39 years old and have zero Utah points. Was thinking about starting to collect points for the big three. Am I crazy for starting now? I have done lots of research. Not great odds but not outrageous prices to apply. I know there are many similar post like this so not trying to beat a dead horse. I don't quite grasp terms like "point creep", "max pool", etc. Therefore, I'm not sure if it's worth it or not. I realize this is a question only I can answer but just hoping to get a few ideas before I apply.
goat/moose/sheep-zero points-is it worth it?
- Thread starter okie archer
- Start date
Point creep refers to the way a hunt that took 4 points, then takes 5, then 6. The points needed to draw continually creeps higher in high demand units/species in most cases.
Max pool is generally referring to how many people have max points for a given species, or how many tags in a given hunt are set aside for highest point applicants.
Max pool is generally referring to how many people have max points for a given species, or how many tags in a given hunt are set aside for highest point applicants.
Elkhunter96
Active Member
Will you be applying for other species? Elk, deer...
I love Utah for hunting, but I'm not sure the odds will be in your favor for goats, moose or sheep in UTAH. Now, if the goal were to apply for lots of species, then maybe...
Idaho and Montana are two states that provide much better sheep, moose and I believe goat odds. Only problem is ID requires you to submit the full tag fee and I can't remember if MT does too.
I love Utah for hunting, but I'm not sure the odds will be in your favor for goats, moose or sheep in UTAH. Now, if the goal were to apply for lots of species, then maybe...
Idaho and Montana are two states that provide much better sheep, moose and I believe goat odds. Only problem is ID requires you to submit the full tag fee and I can't remember if MT does too.
Hilltop
Veteran member
And Idaho makes you buy a hunting license just to apply. Basically it turn into $100+ application fee but you can go shoot squirrels if you want.
missjordan
Veteran member
I don't think montana does charge the full fee, they changed it for residents but I'm not entirely sure about nonresidents.
NDHunter
Veteran member
I would highly recommend not building points in Utah. There are thousands and thousands of apps ahead of you.
MT changed it to where it costs $70 to apply and get a point. You don't have to submit the tag fee. Draw odds are horrendous there. I have a very hard time justifying applying there.
ID has decent odds like others have said but not great with the 10% cap.
I'd argue that CO has some of the best odds of drawing. You have to submit $2,000+ though for each app...
MT changed it to where it costs $70 to apply and get a point. You don't have to submit the tag fee. Draw odds are horrendous there. I have a very hard time justifying applying there.
ID has decent odds like others have said but not great with the 10% cap.
I'd argue that CO has some of the best odds of drawing. You have to submit $2,000+ though for each app...
Seems to me you have to decide a few things first. One is your budget. That alone will drive many decisions. Another is do you want to hunt your big three, or do you want to hunt your big three only in UT? By your questions I am guessing you are not building points in other states at this time? The short answer is you can hunt your big three, but trying to count on UT for all three is unlikely to happen. If you offer up added info, my guess is you will begin to get some fairly specific ideas to address your question, rather than comments on draws in general. If all you can afford is UT, then you may as well start now, and apply for or buy points for elk/deer/antelope too for a few hunts while you hope for good luck.
HuskyMusky
Veteran member
You COULD get lucky.
But odds are you won't.
Let's say you're 40 now, and are ok applying hunting when you're 80? If so then apply away.
I don't doubt that in the future, many people will simply die, stop applying, etc... and then the 2nd wave will be coming through...
Think about your long term goals etc...
Are you ok hunting sheep at 80? 70? 90?
Good luck.
nothing wrong with focusing on higher draw odd states and then buying/going on an outfitted hunt elsewhere etc...
That would be an interesting fact.... average age of max points holder/or each point amount average age...
But odds are you won't.
Let's say you're 40 now, and are ok applying hunting when you're 80? If so then apply away.
I don't doubt that in the future, many people will simply die, stop applying, etc... and then the 2nd wave will be coming through...
Think about your long term goals etc...
Are you ok hunting sheep at 80? 70? 90?
Good luck.
nothing wrong with focusing on higher draw odd states and then buying/going on an outfitted hunt elsewhere etc...
That would be an interesting fact.... average age of max points holder/or each point amount average age...
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Maybe this post will help clear up my motives/thoughts. First off, thanks to everyone for replying. Ok, so I started within last couple of years of thinking outside the box. Meaning for over 20 years I hunted whitetail, turkey, waterfowl in my home state. For some reason unknown to me, I never really thought about hunting other species and states with the exception of deer and turkey on my cousins farm in Kansas. Boom, light comes on, what about antelope, bear, mule deer, elk, sheep, goat, moose, bison, etc.? I asked myself. So I started researching info on the possibility of doing these things. Wow, what a shock at price, poor odds, etc. I started a log book compiling info. It is overwhelming trying to gather information via hours on phone and internet browsing. I am trying to gather the correct information into log book and make my applying decisions based on draw odds vs. price vs. paying up front etc. for each state. Weeding out the most expensive and astronomical odds. (Everything thing is expensive and astronomical) Diy is my focus due to guide fees. However not limited to diy depending on the tag. At this point I have killed many whitetail, couple antelope, and a Black Bear. I'm not really concerned about collecting a bunch of elk or deer points in limited areas. I feel I would be fine with general tags with elk and deer, plus it's something I could do on my own.
I do have two elk points in Az. I have a couple points in Maine and NH for moose.
Also, I have a friend in Idaho that said he would take me moose hunting if I drew the tag. So I plan on applying this year. It cost 2k+ up front. Therefore I'm limited on funds for that reason. I simply can't afford several thousand dollars up front for multiple species. I'm pretty sure Montana requires up front pay.
I do have two elk points in Az. I have a couple points in Maine and NH for moose.
Also, I have a friend in Idaho that said he would take me moose hunting if I drew the tag. So I plan on applying this year. It cost 2k+ up front. Therefore I'm limited on funds for that reason. I simply can't afford several thousand dollars up front for multiple species. I'm pretty sure Montana requires up front pay.
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The reasoning for considering Utah for the big 3 was because of cost. I think it's $65 for hunt license but its a 365 day license so I could apply two years in a row off same license. Utah pp's are $10 per species plus $10 per species app fee. But you don't have to buy tag up front. Which brings me to this question, Is it worth it? Just because it's affordable don't mean it's worth it if you will never draw.
When a person considers the cost for applying for trophy species or limited tags it's ridiculous. Especially considering if you applied in all states for these species that you could and when many states require a license purchase plus paying tag up front. It's actually pretty discouraging.
When a person considers the cost for applying for trophy species or limited tags it's ridiculous. Especially considering if you applied in all states for these species that you could and when many states require a license purchase plus paying tag up front. It's actually pretty discouraging.
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Musket Man
Veteran member
If you were buying the UT hunting license for deer or elk anyways I would say yes throw your name in the hat. Just for trophy species I would say probably not. I would apply for hunts with no points system so atleast you have the same chance as everyone else. I know states like Idaho cost alot to apply but that also helps the odds and alot more would apply if it was cheaper. Realistically for alot of trophy species hunts with a points system there are alot of max point holders that will never draw in their lifetime.
NDHunter
Veteran member
I understand where you're coming from but like you said, just because it's cheap doesn't mean it's a good idea. I believe that's the case with Utah. I think you'd be extremely lucky to draw 1 tag before you're 80. As you can tell, I strongly recommend to avoid Utah. The only way I would apply there is if you plan on getting a general deer tag.
What is your priority for the big 3? How would you rank them? CO is by far the cheapest to build points. It also has some of the best draw odds. Problem is, it takes over $6,000 to apply. You get it all back though, minus $20 or so.
What is your priority for the big 3? How would you rank them? CO is by far the cheapest to build points. It also has some of the best draw odds. Problem is, it takes over $6,000 to apply. You get it all back though, minus $20 or so.
Your ID moose plan is a very good one. MM is spot on for UT. What are there, 6 NR sheep tags this year, 3 desert and 3 rocky MT? 4 or 5 NR moose tags... Not sure about goats, but I suspect there is a reason it is $65 for a license you can use two years. I'd check MT unlimited sheep and maybe some of the high draw ID sheep areas, both are very tough country. I'd pick either about a 5 year MT unlimited sheep program DIY or a guided ID or AK sheep hunt or play random draws and hope. If you get your moose, you have the ability to put those funds into say sheep, once sheep is done buy a goat hunt in SE AK or BC. It is a very frustrating conundrum if you do not already have a pretty good points bank at your age. But, you have to play to win. Of the three, you have a solid moose plan, of the other two, which would you pick? I might focus on two now, once one is done, then the third of my big three. Just a thought. Good luck!
Musket Man
Veteran member
I wouldnt expect the $65 license you can use for 2 years to last forever either. Not to long ago ID, OR and maybe some others were around $65 and now they are around $150. I would expect UT to raise their price eventually too.
Okie Archer, unfortunately the short answer in my opinion is no. It is not worth it IMO if you are just starting to play the bonus point game in UT for sheep, moose, and mountain goat. There are so very few NR tags available for these species to begin with, and since they give 1/2 of the available ags to the applicants with the most bonus points, it will be hundreds and hundreds of years before you would get to the top bonus point holder pool to have a shot at a bonus tag.
However, if there is only one NR tag available (most sheep, moose, and goat hunts) then the tag is drawn in the random draw where applicants get a random number for each bonus point they have in the draw. Whoever draws the lowest random number gets the tag. So if you were to apply this year, you would be given one random number whereas say someone with 10 points would be given 11 random numbers. The odds to draw a random sheep tag are on the order of 1:1250 without respect to bonus points. If you factor in every applicant's bonus points, the true odds are much, much worse. Now if you are one of those lucky types that has $95 of disposable income to gamble on drawing a random tag with lottery type odds, then it may be worth it to you!
Good luck if you decide to apply!
Horniac
Alabama
Veteran member
I know everyone recommends Idaho for sheep but the odds are not really that good. The 10% cap really dampens your odds. A non-resident can draw any unit but the 10% cap is still in effect. Last year for Rocky Mountain Bighorns there were 6 available tags for NR and 1161 total NR applications. I would wager you would have to be one of the 1st 10 people drawn as NR to receive a tag. 6/1161 = 0.5% odds. Not much different than other states when you break it down. Resident odds are substantially better: in fact 27-1 had 40% odds last year but that looks like some ROUGH country!
Odds are very long to draw any sheep tag in the lower 48, Moose and Mountain Goats aren't much better. Utah will be a long shot for the big 3 because in 2009 they opened up all species for NR (before you could only apply for 1 once in a lifetime species). The odds went from bad to almost Powerball impossible. It seems to me that Mountain Goats are best hunted by just going to Alaska or British Columbia. Moose in Canada or Alaska unless you are set on a Shiras sub-species then ID or Montana are your best bets. If you are looking for a Desert or Rocky Bighorn apply everywhere you can afford because I don't think there are any guarantees with those. Demand far exceeds supply.
Odds are very long to draw any sheep tag in the lower 48, Moose and Mountain Goats aren't much better. Utah will be a long shot for the big 3 because in 2009 they opened up all species for NR (before you could only apply for 1 once in a lifetime species). The odds went from bad to almost Powerball impossible. It seems to me that Mountain Goats are best hunted by just going to Alaska or British Columbia. Moose in Canada or Alaska unless you are set on a Shiras sub-species then ID or Montana are your best bets. If you are looking for a Desert or Rocky Bighorn apply everywhere you can afford because I don't think there are any guarantees with those. Demand far exceeds supply.
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Zim
Very Active Member
Ya and they love to trap us long investors buying in at one price then cheapening the points they sold us. Try that in private industry and get thrown in jail for fraud. I apply on ten states and have been dropping out of some states after burning points. Their games are bad values for newbies.
Musket Man
Veteran member
Alabama I agree the odds are low in Idaho but atleast you have the same chance as any other NR. Alot better chance of your number coming up then in a draw with a points system where you have 0 points.
