Don't let this be the fate of 640 million acres

Musket Man

Veteran member
Jul 20, 2011
6,457
0
colfax, wa
I think you are delusional. Randys video talks about the land the states got at statehood, not anytihng recent nor does it mention any of it being sold recently. I bet alot of land was homesteaded after alot of that state land was sold. The federal government sells land too but that is something none of you seem to recognize.

ttt. Im glad your brother in law has some sense. Leasing land and grazing rights are completely different things. I guess you dont know the difference. The federal government is not managing the land for the the best interest of everyone. They manage it by what groups like destroyers of wildlife sue them and win. That is why we have wolves and catastrophic wildfires. If it keeps going like it is all the federal land in the country will be protected for some endangered species and we wont be able to set foot on any of it. By suporting federal ownership you are supporting all the left wing environmental groups that want to end hunting and everything we do on public land.
 

Musket Man

Veteran member
Jul 20, 2011
6,457
0
colfax, wa
Foreign ownership of land should not be legal. I don't care if it is a intercity lot or 1 million acres of forest land. No US citizen....no land for you.
Do you know the reason the Hammonds are in prision and the federal government is trying to take their land is because there is uranium on it and Hillary Clinton is trying to sell the mining rights to the Russians.
 

oneye

Member
Dec 24, 2015
62
0
Public land
Do you know the reason the Hammonds are in prision and the federal government is trying to take their land is because there is uranium on it and Hillary Clinton is trying to sell the mining rights to the Russians.
States sale land every year. That's what I call recent. This post specifically is showing the state of Utah advertising the auction of land.

The statement above shows how bright you are though. It may be time to remove your tin foil cap MM, it's starting to interfere with your brain waves.
 

highplainsdrifter

Very Active Member
May 4, 2011
703
128
Wyoming
I think you are delusional. Randys video talks about the land the states got at statehood, not anytihng recent nor does it mention any of it being sold recently.
There is a BIG state land sale going on in Oregon right now. The state couldn't afford to manage it, so they are selling it. That will be the future for all of us if we don't speak up against federal land transfer.

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/tech/science/environment/2015/12/16/elliott-state-forest-sale-attracts-four-dozen-prospective-buyers/77445222/
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
I think you are delusional. Randys video talks about the land the states got at statehood, not anytihng recent nor does it mention any of it being sold recently. I bet alot of land was homesteaded after alot of that state land was sold. The federal government sells land too but that is something none of you seem to recognize.

ttt. Im glad your brother in law has some sense. Leasing land and grazing rights are completely different things. I guess you dont know the difference. The federal government is not managing the land for the the best interest of everyone. They manage it by what groups like destroyers of wildlife sue them and win. That is why we have wolves and catastrophic wildfires. If it keeps going like it is all the federal land in the country will be protected for some endangered species and we wont be able to set foot on any of it. By suporting federal ownership you are supporting all the left wing environmental groups that want to end hunting and everything we do on public land.
There isn't any truth to a single thing you just posted here, nothing based on fact.

Homesteading had ZERO to do with State lands, it was a federal program that gave away Federal lands. Which, begs the question: If the Federal Government didn't OWN the lands, then how did they have the authority to give them away under the Homestead Act? Which further buries the case that many of the pro transfer wingnuts use as an "argument" that the Feds stole the land from the States. Not true. The federal Government GAVE the states large land holdings at Statehood, land the Federal Government owned. Many states have since squandered their state assets that the Federal Government gave them. Yet, guys like you still want to claim that the feds "mismanage" their lands? Really? I would contend that States like Nevada, UT, MT, WY, OR, etc. have shown a complete lack of any management strategy, when they have sold off large percentages of their State land assets. That's mismanagement.

The Federal Government is giving us hunters, as well as the State Game and Fish Departments the deal of the century. They charge loggers for their timber assets, they charge ranchers to graze their ranges, etc. etc. Yet, they charge the States exactly ZERO for the states elk, deer, moose, bighorn sheep, goats, fish, fur bearers, etc. etc. that utilize Federal lands.

You're also wrong about hunters and anglers, ATVers, and other users not getting their way on federal lands. Hundreds of thousands of miles of open trails, roads, etc. etc.

So, the next time you drive a Federal highway, to your favorite national forest, drive down a forest road maintained by the Feds, to hike a forest trail maintained by the Feds, to shoot a deer or elk that has been raised on federal lands for free, consider how you've been "shut out" and how bad the feds are treating you.
 

Gr8bawana

Veteran member
Aug 14, 2014
2,670
604
Nevada
There isn't any truth to a single thing you just posted here, nothing based on fact.


So, the next time you drive a Federal highway, to your favorite national forest, drive down a forest road maintained by the Feds, to hike a forest trail maintained by the Feds, to shoot a deer or elk that has been raised on federal lands for free, consider how you've been "shut out" and how bad the feds are treating you.
Perhaps musket man should move to somalia so he can experience first hand what it would be like to have no government at all which is what it seems he wants by reading previous comments from MM. Because everything done by the government is evil.
For example law enforcement, actual highways, our military, national forests, electricity when we flip the switch, social security...
Everything the government does must be bad for us.
Government gives us that thing called a civilized society.
 
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s8mdevo

Member
Mar 31, 2016
62
0
UK
All you guys are so lucky to have public land to hunt. The good old UK has zero acres of public land for hunting! Would be a travesty to lose that privilege.
 

Musket Man

Veteran member
Jul 20, 2011
6,457
0
colfax, wa
There isn't any truth to a single thing you just posted here, nothing based on fact.

Homesteading had ZERO to do with State lands, it was a federal program that gave away Federal lands. Which, begs the question: If the Federal Government didn't OWN the lands, then how did they have the authority to give them away under the Homestead Act? Which further buries the case that many of the pro transfer wingnuts use as an "argument" that the Feds stole the land from the States. Not true. The federal Government GAVE the states large land holdings at Statehood, land the Federal Government owned. Many states have since squandered their state assets that the Federal Government gave them. Yet, guys like you still want to claim that the feds "mismanage" their lands? Really? I would contend that States like Nevada, UT, MT, WY, OR, etc. have shown a complete lack of any management strategy, when they have sold off large percentages of their State land assets. That's mismanagement.

The Federal Government is giving us hunters, as well as the State Game and Fish Departments the deal of the century. They charge loggers for their timber assets, they charge ranchers to graze their ranges, etc. etc. Yet, they charge the States exactly ZERO for the states elk, deer, moose, bighorn sheep, goats, fish, fur bearers, etc. etc. that utilize Federal lands.

You're also wrong about hunters and anglers, ATVers, and other users not getting their way on federal lands. Hundreds of thousands of miles of open trails, roads, etc. etc.

So, the next time you drive a Federal highway, to your favorite national forest, drive down a forest road maintained by the Feds, to hike a forest trail maintained by the Feds, to shoot a deer or elk that has been raised on federal lands for free, consider how you've been "shut out" and how bad the feds are treating you.
Everything I posted is true. The homestead act is every bit as relevant as how many acres the states have sold since statehood. Lets look at how many acres the feds have sold as well. In order to be fair it needs to show the whole picture not just the part you want people to see. What is the deal of the century? Wolves? Wildfires? That has been a great deal for hunters. Its been great for state F&G's too when they have to cut tags and eliminate hunts and cant sell general tags because of the damage the wolves have done. I dont think we would have wolves if it managed by the states. The feds can declare an area "critical habitat" for some made up endangered species and close access any day.
 

Musket Man

Veteran member
Jul 20, 2011
6,457
0
colfax, wa
States sale land every year. That's what I call recent. This post specifically is showing the state of Utah advertising the auction of land.

The statement above shows how bright you are though. It may be time to remove your tin foil cap MM, it's starting to interfere with your brain waves.
Your statement shows you have no idea what is really going on and you believe the lies on the mainstream news media.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
Everything I posted is true. The homestead act is every bit as relevant as how many acres the states have sold since statehood. Lets look at how many acres the feds have sold as well. In order to be fair it needs to show the whole picture not just the part you want people to see. What is the deal of the century? Wolves? Wildfires? That has been a great deal for hunters. Its been great for state F&G's too when they have to cut tags and eliminate hunts and cant sell general tags because of the damage the wolves have done. I dont think we would have wolves if it managed by the states. The feds can declare an area "critical habitat" for some made up endangered species and close access any day.
Musket man, this post really isn't for you...since you've obviously drank a bit too much of the tea parties tea, this is more for the rest of the posters that may be following this thread looking for facts VS. fiction.

You mention wildfires being bad for wildlife, that's not true at all, and proves that you know absolutely nothing about fire ecology, plant succession, and how that all ties into forest health and ultimately wildlife.

Let me break the news to you that wildfires have happened for as long as there has been fuel, sources of ignition, and oxygen. Our forests evolved with fire, its not unnatural at all. The large beetle-kills that we're seeing, along with the fire activity to go with them, that is 100% how lodgepole forests are supposed to function. Lodgepole need stand level disturbance for reproduction, in other words either insect/disease outbreaks, fire, or a combination of both. Because of the elevation that lodgepole are found, the fire frequencies are very long, 80-300 years for stand replacing fire. Largely, lodgepole/alpine fir dominated stands are not that influenced by fire fighting efforts, and when they do finally burn, you cant do much to fight them, for lots of reasons (crown fires, poor access, etc.)

Other stands at lower elevations, say Ponderosa Pine, Douglas-fir, those stands historically had very frequent fire. These stands, absolutely have been impacted, in a NEGATIVE way by our "management". They are easily accessible via vehicle, closer to the urban interface, and easier to stop wildfires. The historic stocking rates for Pinus Ponderosa, were somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-20 stems/trees per acre. Now, these same areas sometimes have stocking in the 500-2000+ stems per acre range. Our management has vastly changed not only the stand density, but also the forest types, understory vegetation, forage potential, etc. etc.

By stomping out every fire via what you would consider "management" on these lower-mid elevation stands, we have made things much, much worse for wildlife. In many cases, to reset what a stand should look like, takes a lot of money. Thinning unmerchantable trees is expensive. Remember, we're talking about removing THOUSANDS of stems per acre in many cases, and having to do so periodically to recreate a natural forest.

How is plant succession related to all this.

In early forest succession, the species diversity of plant communities goes way up. Without the over-story trees, you have more diversity and younger plants. Younger plants, in particular those palatable to big-game, have much higher protein levels, minerals, etc. That is a good thing for our herds. I just read a recent article regarding the Bitterroot in Montana (wolf central BTW), comparing the East side elk with those found on the West side. The elk living in the heavily burned areas of the East Fork, have significantly higher fat, higher pregnancy rates, and higher calf survival than those on the West Fork. The reason is exactly what I just stated, the earlier succession of the forest/plant community on the East fork is much better for big-game.

Why do you think that the RMEF, MDF, etc. etc., in partnership with the USFS, States, Tribes, etc. etc. are all spending money on burning projects? If fire was the enemy of big-game, they wouldn't be purposely applying fire to the landscape. Before you go off about how "that's different" than naturally occurring wildfire, its not. I've been a professional Forester for nearly 20 years, fought fire for 9 years, and plant succession is the same in both prescribed fire and wildfire situations.

As to the wolves, no question they kill some elk. But, in the States that have a bulk of them, MT, ID, and WY...you can kill 2-3 elk per year in all of those states. If wolves were having the impact that you claim they do, then why can we all hunt multiple elk per year? Year before last I shot 2 elk in Montana, 3 in Wyoming. Since I moved to Wyoming in 2001, I've shot 28 elk.

Finally, the dead elephant in the room that you're ignoring in regard to forest management, is that management costs money and a lot of it. Money that the States simply do not have, and money that our elected officials are NOT willing to provide to the Federal Land Management Agencies to properly manage. We cant manage without funding...period.

The best thing you can do, if you really believe that we need to manage our forests better, is to contact your national representatives and tell them to fully fund the Land Management Agencies.
 

highplainsdrifter

Very Active Member
May 4, 2011
703
128
Wyoming
BuzzH, I completely agree that our elected officials in Congress need to provide more funding for our federal land management agencies. However, it appears that many of them would rather cut funding so they can build a case for mismanagement and transfer. They are manipulating the public. We as sportsmen shouldn't put up with it anymore!
 

Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
8,365
4,757
83
Dolores, Colorado
BuzzH, I completely agree that our elected officials in Congress need to provide more funding for our federal land management agencies. However, it appears that many of them would rather cut funding so they can build a case for mismanagement and transfer. They are manipulating the public. We as sportsmen shouldn't put up with it anymore!
Spot on.................again!
 

Musket Man

Veteran member
Jul 20, 2011
6,457
0
colfax, wa
Its ok BuzzH, I understand you not going against your employer. Yes fire can be good but the problem is there is somuch fuel now due to the lack of management and logging that these fires burn so hot it takes years to come back. Maybe you should come tell everyone that lost their homes last year in Idaho and Washington how good that fire was for them. Your right this thread is not for me. Its a waste of time trying to have a discussion with closed minded people like yourself.
 

highplainsdrifter

Very Active Member
May 4, 2011
703
128
Wyoming
Its ok BuzzH, I understand you not going against your employer. Yes fire can be good but the problem is there is somuch fuel now due to the lack of management and logging that these fires burn so hot it takes years to come back. Maybe you should come tell everyone that lost their homes last year in Idaho and Washington how good that fire was for them. Your right this thread is not for me. Its a waste of time trying to have a discussion with closed minded people like yourself.
I object to the characterization that those of us who are against transfer are close minded! We have taken our time to thoughtfully present you numerous sound arguments against transfer and have provided links to sources to back up those arguments. In most cases, you have rejected the evidence provided in those links.

One of your more outlandish statements was: "By suporting federal ownership you are supporting all the left wing environmental groups that want to end hunting and everything we do on public land." Let me assure you that we/I are fighting hard to preserve a longstanding western hunting tradition. It is abundantly clear to me that your position is the one that will seriously threaten hunting. A sportsman taking a stand in favor of federal land transfer makes as much sense as a sportsman in favor of strict gun control.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
Its ok BuzzH, I understand you not going against your employer. Yes fire can be good but the problem is there is somuch fuel now due to the lack of management and logging that these fires burn so hot it takes years to come back. Maybe you should come tell everyone that lost their homes last year in Idaho and Washington how good that fire was for them. Your right this thread is not for me. Its a waste of time trying to have a discussion with closed minded people like yourself.
I can show you tens of thousands of acres of burned over "managed" timberlands. I've watched fires rip through clear-cuts, regen, shelter-wood cuts, seed tree cuts, you name it.

I will agree that some forests have and are seeing unnatural fuel loads...mainly due to "management" via fighting fire. Stomping out fires in areas of the Urban interface and low elevations is where this mainly happens. John Q. Public is largely to blame, they demand that fires be fought near their homes and in areas that are easily accessible.

As to folks losing their homes, I feel bad for anyone that loses their home in a flood, fire, etc. However, I don't feel one bit sorry for them, and there is a difference. If you choose to live in the woods, and ignore the mountains of information available regarding defensible space...well, you reap what you sew. Its not the fault of management practices that cause these people to lose their homes, its a decision they make to live where they do and not take appropriate precautions to keep their house from burning. The "mismanagement" problem is 100% with those that don't know how to manage their property to keep their house from burning. Same with those that get flooded out living in a flood plain...hard to feel sorry for them.

As to your comments that forests take "years to come back because they burn so hot"...not in my experience. You just don't know anything about forest succession and lack the knowledge base to know what you're looking at. Forests are incredibly resilient, not surprisingly, since they have evolved with fire for many thousands of years.

Mountains of literature and science out there regarding fire/forest ecology...and how that relates to wildlife. Used that information to improve my hunting success, many times.

Check this...moose my Dad killed in Wyoming about a month after the Fontenelle fire. The important part here, is not the moose, but why a majority of the moose we saw on this trip were in the black within a month after the fire.



A couple things, one, this was a very intense crown fire, completely burning the over-story and under story. I think we can agree on that. Check to the right side of the photo....that green is what the moose were keying on. That is 12-18 inch tall Aspen regeneration...a month after the fire. I also saw a hundred or so elk on this hunt, including a couple very nice 6 point bulls, all in the black.

I work in this same country, and the aspen is now 6-15 feet tall, in 4 years. Conifers are also coming in as well, far from "taking years to come back because it burned too hot".
 

Musket Man

Veteran member
Jul 20, 2011
6,457
0
colfax, wa
I object to the characterization that those of us who are against transfer are close minded! We have taken our time to thoughtfully present you numerous sound arguments against transfer and have provided links to sources to back up those arguments. In most cases, you have rejected the evidence provided in those links.

One of your more outlandish statements was: "By suporting federal ownership you are supporting all the left wing environmental groups that want to end hunting and everything we do on public land." Let me assure you that we/I are fighting hard to preserve a longstanding western hunting tradition. It is abundantly clear to me that your position is the one that will seriously threaten hunting. A sportsman taking a stand in favor of federal land transfer makes as much sense as a sportsman in favor of strict gun control.
You are closed minded because you will not listen to any reasons for the transfer. Anytime anyone speaks for it all of you jump all over them. Its not a discussion at all. No one has showed me any facts to prove to me the transfer would be bad. I see alot of speculation and cherry picked one sided info that doesnt prove anything. Federal ownership is giving the leftwing environmenalists the tools to destroy us. That is why they can get some bleeding heart judge in DC to stop Wyomings wolf hunt and why it took so long to manage wolves in Idaho and Montana while the wolves destroyed elk and moose populations. This is why we need local control. people outside of the western states should not influence decisions that effect us and not them. Have you ever herd of Y2Y? That is what they really want to do to the public lands we want to protect.
 

highplainsdrifter

Very Active Member
May 4, 2011
703
128
Wyoming
You are closed minded because you will not listen to any reasons for the transfer. Anytime anyone speaks for it all of you jump all over them. Its not a discussion at all. No one has showed me any facts to prove to me the transfer would be bad. I see alot of speculation and cherry picked one sided info that doesnt prove anything. Federal ownership is giving the leftwing environmenalists the tools to destroy us. That is why they can get some bleeding heart judge in DC to stop Wyomings wolf hunt and why it took so long to manage wolves in Idaho and Montana while the wolves destroyed elk and moose populations. This is why we need local control. people outside of the western states should not influence decisions that effect us and not them. Have you ever herd of Y2Y? That is what they really want to do to the public lands we want to protect.

Every time someone speaks out against transfer, you accuse them of being left wing. I am not left wing. I have been a Republican for decades. When someone brings up the left wing/right wing argument it is clear they have more allegiance to a political party/philosophy than they do to our hunting heritage. I am at least open minded enough to question my party's stand on transfer. I decided a long time ago that if I have to choose between siding with my political party or the federal lands I love, the politicians will lose that battle EVERY time.

And I don't apologize for speaking out against transfer. There are three things that are a top priority to me: my family, my right to bear arms and OUR federal lands (not necessarily in that order, but don't tell my wife that :).
 

Slugz

Veteran member
Oct 12, 2014
3,664
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Casper, Wyoming
Every time someone speaks out against transfer, you accuse them of being left wing. I am not left wing. I have been a Republican for decades. When someone brings up the left wing/right wing argument it is clear they have more allegiance to a political party/philosophy than they do to our hunting heritage. I am at least open minded enough to question my party's stand on transfer. I decided a long time ago that if I have to choose between siding with my political party or the federal lands I love, the politicians will lose that battle EVERY time.

And I don't apologize for speaking out against transfer. There are three things that are a top priority to me: my family, my right to bear arms and OUR federal lands (not necessarily in that order, but don't tell my wife that :).
I prefer both wings.....lightly breaded......fried and finished with a buffalo sauce or habanero bbq sauce.