Berger 7mm 195gr Extreme Outer Limits Elite Hunter Bullet (G1=0.754)

[Umpqua Hunter]

Umpqua Hunter are you stuck on 7mm or open to diff cal

KH, I'm open to other options, what else do you have in mind? I would do this project primarily for this high BC bullet (G1=0.755). I already shoot a 300 WSM, so I would want something ballistically superior to that in terms of significantly lower wind drift, lower bullet drop and better energy at 1000 yards.

Here's my criteria.....

I know I can do something in the larger magnums but I'd prefer not to go above 30 caliber.

I'd like to keep the bullet weight in say the 220 grain to 160 grain range and have a minimum of 1500 foot pounds of energy at 1000 yards. I'd want the bullet to be a known performer game, elk in particular.

I would want the bullets and brass to be readily available, however I would likely stock up at the time of the build.

I'd like to minimize recoil. I personally don't like heavy recoiling rifles. When I was in my 20s, a heavy recoiling rifle I hunted with messed up my shooting for a few years. I'd like it to be something my wife and daughter (and grandkids someday) would readily shoot and hunt with.

 

[WapitiBob]

UH, I started with a Rem sps. It wouldn't shoot and was sent back to Remington where they replaced it. It still wouldn't shoot to my standards so I bought a Greybull stock and bedded it myself. I then bought a Brux #5 barrel and after about a year had a local guy (gene caron) do the action and barrel work. I re bedded the new barreled action then last year I purchased and installed a Jewel trigger. I re bedded it again, this time with devcon instead of accra glass and put a Nightforce nxs on it. That's where it sits.
I have heard good thing about the guy over in Pendleton as well as the guys in Coos Bay.

 

[Tim McCoy]

WB, if the Pendleton guy is Blagg Rifles, I've heard the same good things and stopped by his shop once. Big shop. There is another guy there too I believe, but I don't know anything about him.

UH, NW Action Works, in K -falls, may be worthy of a look too. Recently they had a special on trued 700's with Krieger barrels. Don't have much info on them, but they look legit. Krieger, Brux, Bartlien are some of the "better" cut rifle barrel makers, there are others. If you are more of a button barrel guy, Benchmark is a good one, Blagg uses them if I recall correctly, but there are many others, like Lija.

So many of the fast twist 6/6.5/7mm barrels are going to the LR guys now, finding a .284 with a 1-8 twist may dictate the maker, unless you are OK with a long wait. Bugholes/Southern Precision Rifles, usually stocks quite a few barrels from top makers. Good luck!

 

[DRUSS]

If you're trying to stay local, Wayne York is also in pendleton, curt Mendenhall is in Sutherlin, Darrel Holland in powers, . Benchmark barrels are made up in Arlington, wa. Pac-nor I think is in coos bay too. Curt was also at the show. Wayne also builds his own stocks. MPI is up in Portland also

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

If you're trying to stay local, Wayne York is also in pendleton, curt Mendenhall is in Sutherlin, Darrel Holland in powers, . Benchmark barrels are made up in Arlington, wa. Pac-nor I think is in coos bay too. Curt was also at the show. Wayne also builds his own stocks. MPI is up in Portland also

Thanks Druss. I saw Curt Mendenhall at the Portland show and just spoke to him on the phone. He's only half an hour away. He built a friend's rifle. I think I would have him fit the barrel to the action, cut the chamber and fit the muzzle brake. I would then do final fitting in the stock, bed the action and develop the load.

Right now I am leaning to go with the following:

Defiance Deviant Hunter action
McMillan Hunters Edge stock
Bartlein, Krieger, or Brux barrel (1 in 8 twist)

The only "custom" rifle I have is my Christensen Arms which I have had built for me around 13 years ago. I have never built a rifle this way, where I actually select quality components. To be honest I am a bit surprised how "reasonable" it is price wise compared to buying a rifle from one of the well known custom manufacturers.

 

[DRUSS]

He has a couple of mine now for some upgrades. Pac nor is in Brookings not coos bay,whoops

 

[Kentucky hunter]

KH, I'm open to other options, what else do you have in mind? I would do this project primarily for this high BC bullet (G1=0.755). I already shoot a 300 WSM, so I would want something ballistically superior to that in terms of significantly lower wind drift, lower bullet drop and better energy at 1000 yards.

Here's my criteria.....

I know I can do something in the larger magnums but I'd prefer not to go above 30 caliber.

I'd like to keep the bullet weight in say the 220 grain to 160 grain range and have a minimum of 1500 foot pounds of energy at 1000 yards. I'd want the bullet to be a known performer game, elk in particular.

I would want the bullets and brass to be readily available, however I would likely stock up at the time of the build.

I'd like to minimize recoil. I personally don't like heavy recoiling rifles. When I was in my 20s, a heavy recoiling rifle I hunted with messed up my shooting for a few years. I'd like it to be something my wife and daughter (and grandkids someday) would readily shoot and hunt with.

UH I shoot a 300 rum Ill get some secp when I get home

 

[Tim McCoy]

UH, picking your components is a good way to go, I think. The Defiance action, or any top custom action, with an integral picatinny rail is a great way to go. Had I not had a "free" 700 sitting around, I'd have gone with a custom action on my last rifle build. By the time one trues a 700 or the like, buys a good rail, you are darned close in price.

There are some custom actions with extremely close tolerances, some are made with a bit less. Don't know much about the one you are looking at, but consider a hunting action may not need or want bench rest action tolerances. Dust grit etc, but if they label it hunter, I suspect they have built that in, as you probably have in your research.

You'll not go wrong with the parts you have selected so far. All are or are among the best. Hope you can get it done in time for this Fall.

 

[WapitiBob]

I used to shoot bows with Curt, he's a good guy. I talked to a cpl friends this weekend at the state indoor and they had Curt work on their rifles.

I would have someone do the barreled action and do all the rest yourself. It took maybe 10 minutes to install my jewel trigger. Bedding the action was a learning experience but you just grind out the old and do it again. Bedding the scope rail was easy and so was lapping the rings.

 

[Kentucky hunter]

UH I shoot a 168 barnes ttsx with a bc 0.470 at 3281 vel at 1000 yds vel 1579.7 energy 930.8 wind drift at 10 mph 6.9 moa I also have a Hornady 165 sst an 150 sst load that shoot great but been looking at a bigger grain bullet also hornady edl-x 212 gr has bc 0.673 if I can push it to 3000 fps at 1000 yd vel 1737.4 energy 1437.2 wind drift at 10 mph 5.3 moa also Nosler Accubond LR 210 gr has a bc 0.730 if I can push it at 3000 vel at 1000 yd vel 1853.0 energy 1600.0 wind drift 10 mph 4.6 moa. There is a greater bullet selection in 30 cal an you an also detune a load for some one other than you to shoot I love the barnes just wish it had a higher bc I can get a higher vel out of the 168 gr but I was after a 200 yd clover pattern an the recoil is not much I dont think you can go wrong with the 300 rum plenty of bullets an brass out there Im woried that the Nosler 28 may be like the 7mm wsm an the 7mm rum an not make it then everything will be hard to find for reloading or over the counter ammo all the numbers are offa bc calculator I have shot the 168 barns load out to 1000 an it hits hard if you need anything just let me know

 

[idcwby]

UH, just to throw another idea in the mix. I know with the 300 Ultra mag, Remington makes power level loads, which reduce the recoil of the gun, I think there are 3 different levels. I'm not sure if they make the same thing in the 7mm Ultra.
Another way to reduce recoil is put a muzzle brake on the gun, the correct one can help out, but you will always need ear plugs.

idcwby

 

[crzy_cntryby]

I think I would stock up early and have some just because. I have been contemplating about building a 300 Norma mag, but the brass concerns me if it will be around long enough if it doesn't get more popular. have a 300RUM but wanted something new maybe more efficient too. now that Nosler has 26,28,30 out leaning that direction. I believe the performance should be really similar to what I was thinking I would get with a 300 Norma. I have not been to happy about brass availability over the last few years. now lot more forethought on new purchases.....

Look at rebarreling to the .338 edge. Amazing ballistics. Neck up your RUM cases only lose about one round of life.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

UH, picking your components is a good way to go, I think. The Defiance action, or any top custom action, with an integral picatinny rail is a great way to go. Had I not had a "free" 700 sitting around, I'd have gone with a custom action on my last rifle build. By the time one trues a 700 or the like, buys a good rail, you are darned close in price.

There are some custom actions with extremely close tolerances, some are made with a bit less. Don't know much about the one you are looking at, but consider a hunting action may not need or want bench rest action tolerances. Dust grit etc, but if they label it hunter, I suspect they have built that in, as you probably have in your research.

You'll not go wrong with the parts you have selected so far. All are or are among the best. Hope you can get it done in time for this Fall.

Tim, what you brought up on the cost difference for the Defiance action versus buying and truing up a Remington action is exactly what I concluded as well. I will need a new action. I am really glad to hear you confirm this.

Lead time on the action is 9 months (ouch), so I am not gonna put the pressure on getting it done this season. If the rifle is done in a year, it will give me a few months to have a load ready for the 2017 season. That's probably better for me because my plate is VERY full this year.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

UH I shoot a 168 barnes ttsx with a bc 0.470 at 3281 vel at 1000 yds vel 1579.7 energy 930.8 wind drift at 10 mph 6.9 moa I also have a Hornady 165 sst an 150 sst load that shoot great but been looking at a bigger grain bullet also hornady edl-x 212 gr has bc 0.673 if I can push it to 3000 fps at 1000 yd vel 1737.4 energy 1437.2 wind drift at 10 mph 5.3 moa also Nosler Accubond LR 210 gr has a bc 0.730 if I can push it at 3000 vel at 1000 yd vel 1853.0 energy 1600.0 wind drift 10 mph 4.6 moa. There is a greater bullet selection in 30 cal an you an also detune a load for some one other than you to shoot I love the barnes just wish it had a higher bc I can get a higher vel out of the 168 gr but I was after a 200 yd clover pattern an the recoil is not much I dont think you can go wrong with the 300 rum plenty of bullets an brass out there Im woried that the Nosler 28 may be like the 7mm wsm an the 7mm rum an not make it then everything will be hard to find for reloading or over the counter ammo all the numbers are offa bc calculator I have shot the 168 barns load out to 1000 an it hits hard if you need anything just let me know

Hi KH, I think I want to stay on the 7mm path, thanks a bunch for the info though. I am not an expert by any means but there is definitely a ballistic sweet spot at 7mm. I have looked at the 30 caliber magnums of the years and never gotten overly excited about them. I am not sure I trust the published BC numbers I have been seeing with the Accubond LRs. I recall Brian Litz has done actual BC verification of various bullets and I think I read once he has some actual numbers on the Accubond bullets....don't quote me on that though.

I have wavered between the 28 Nosler and the 7mm RUM. I am leaning to the 28 Nosler for action length and bolt throw, but the 7mm RUM has merits for availability. As far as availability, once I get a load developed, I think I will likely just stock up on brass and bullets and not worry about the availability after that.

One thing I like about this project is three of my sons have expressed an interest in a custom rifle but I have thought it was out of range for them price wise. I am feeling I am on a path they can actually afford. I could set up with the reloading dies. It would make for some good times with my kids.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

UH, just to throw another idea in the mix. I know with the 300 Ultra mag, Remington makes power level loads, which reduce the recoil of the gun, I think there are 3 different levels. I'm not sure if they make the same thing in the 7mm Ultra.
Another way to reduce recoil is put a muzzle brake on the gun, the correct one can help out, but you will always need ear plugs.

idcwby

I'll definitely put a brake on it! My feelings are that noise is far easier to deal with than recoil. My 300 WSM has a brake so we have been shooting that way for years.

Here are some interesting articles I found on muzzle brakes:

Precision Rifle Blog, "Best Supressors and Muzzle Brakes: What the Pros Use":

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/12/20/best-suppressors-and-muzzle-brakes/

Precision Rifle Blog, "Muzzle Brakes: Sound Test":

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/08/07/muzzle-brakes-sound-test/

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

So what is the consensus between these three: 7mm RUM, 7mm STW, 28 Noser

Here are my thoughts:

7mm RUM: Good brass availability (around $2.00 power brass case from Midway). Modern non-belted case. I would need to deal with the extended case length with the 195 grain Berger bullet.

7mm STW: Fair/Good brass availability ($0.70 to $2.50 per brass case from Midway). Older style belted case. I would need to deal with the extended case length with the 195 grain Berger bullet.

28 Nosler: Brass availability is unknown ($2.72 per brass case from Midway). Modern non-belted case. Can use a standard long action and magazine box.

As you know, I am leaning to the 28 Nosler...feel free to talk me out of it for one of the others.

QUESTIONS:

Which of these would be the most easy to form brass for from a more commonly available brass case?

What "modifications" are needed to the rifle to feed the RUM or STW with an extended COAL for the 195 Berger? I know I'd need an extended length box.

 

[Tim McCoy]

If my only sticking point is brass availability. I'd do a couple things.

Call Nosler, find out what their on hand brass supply is or if they have or plan to have the tooling on site to make it themselves. Might give you an idea of their level of commitment. But recall WB telling us an early batch of brass Nosler made would not roll across a table. Would have loved to have been a bug on the wall at the next QC meeting. Nosler is mostly about bullets, then rifles, now a named round or two. I bet they will keep this family of rounds alive for some time. I suspect they have priced things for the long haul due to the somewhat more specialized appeal, and likely lower sales volume, for these hyper velocity rounds.

See what options there are to make your own brass as a backup plan. I suspect you may be able to make it out of 375 Ruger or 7 RUM, but don't know. If there is a reasonably easy brass making option, from a longer lived and/or more popular round, my worries would go away. Especially since you will use it just for hunting, not high volume shooting.

Get some idea about case life. 7mm STW and 7 RUM case life should inform a guess about 28 Nosler case life. I think you said you'd be happy with barrel life of 1,500. So if 5 loadings is reasonable, build up a 300-400 case supply over several years and be happy. I have zero idea how many loadings is reasonable, but know some of it will depend on how hot the loads are and I believe if you fully or partially resize.

I think you need to build it.

 

[Tim McCoy]

8mm Rem Mag has been around since the 70's. 375 HH has been around since dirt. Both can be made into 7mm stw as far as I know, a little neck turning and/or blowing it out, depending on which one you start with. The 7mm stw wins for certainty of brass availability or easily made brass, in my mind. It is very long however.

I think the 28 Nosler is the way to go, for what you want. With a little snooping around about 28 Nos brass, I think you will be satisfied.

 

[WapitiBob]

You can run 8mm rem mag brass thru an stw full length sizer, load it and go hunt. All my brass cost 1.25 min and up to 1.50 when I quit buying it online. Nosler 2nds are 2.00 but the primer pockets in nosler brass is a cpl thou smaller than rem brass and will last several more firings. I'm now a nosler brass believer.

 

[brdhuntr]

If you have a Sportsmann's Whs. nearby you might check with them for Nosler brass and loaded ammo. I was in the Meridian Idaho one yesterday, and they had brass and both loads for the 28.