2021 WY Quality

jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
219
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I've always wondered about age and trophy potential of B&C pronghorn bucks. It's been an eye-opener once I started looking into this in more detail. Similar to what Buzz and JM have said I always thought that it took 4 to 6+ years to produce B&C pronghorn bucks but it's been a shocker to learn how quickly antelope buck horns develop and how quickly they reach their potential.

Just because 1 or 2 local guys haven't harvested high scoring YOUNGER B&C bucks doesn't really mean a whole lot. I always try to use solid facts, numbers, and literature to support my comments. I've been compiling a spread sheet with a large list of B&C bucks scoring 82+ B&C that had teeth sent in and aged. Believe it or not there are 2 1/2 year old bucks that have made the all-time list and a few 2 1/2 year old bucks have scored over the 90" mark! That seems hard to believe but is a true fact!

You Wyo boys would be pretty surprised how many 2 and 3 year old bucks have actually been harvested in Wyo that score 82+ B&C. These bucks may or may not be where you have been hunting? It may be a shocker to some of you but there is a similar number of B&C bucks in the 2 to 3 year old age class as 5 to 6 years olds. There have been at least 3 x 90+ B&C 3 year old bucks from Wyo and 18 x 2 to 3 year old 89+ B&C bucks harvested from the Western US! That's totally amazing if you ask me! WOW!

I also compiled a large spread sheet of 82+ B&C bucks harvested and tooth-aged from several Western states. One of the interesting things I noticed is there are 3x more alltime B&C 3 year old bucks than 6 and 7 year old bucks combined. There are an equal number of 3 year bucks and 5 to 7 year old bucks. That pretty much tells me that antelope bucks often reach their peak at 4 to 5 years of age and scores tend to decrease at ages over 5 years of age. There are a similar number of 2 year old 82+ bucks to 6 - 7 year olds.

Another interesting statistic from the spread sheet is that 36% of total bucks scoring 90+ B&C were 2 to 3 years of age while only 4% were 6+ years of age. Pretty interesting how many young bucks score so well!

What does this mean to a trophy antelope hunter? I believe it's super important to keep tabs on factors and conditions I mentioned in a couple other posts over a 2 to 4 period of time. These local factors and conditions play a major role in horn growth on bucks in any particular region....especially the first 2 years of their lives that can make or break their potential scores for the. As I've mentioned several times before healthy does translates to healthy buck fawns. Healthy habitat often translates in healthier pronghorn. Healthy buck fawns translate to more massive horn bases from the year they are born for the remainder of their life.

Obviously conditions change from one year to the next. Sometimes it pays off to keep tabs on local conditions and change up strategies to improve your odds of harvesting a B&C. If you have waited 15 years for a tag it may be worth it to know exactly what has been going on in a particular unit the last few years before burning all your hard-earned pref pts! I know quite a few hunters over the years that have drawn premium antelope tags in Wyo and have been super disappointed when they weren't able to find many...if any trophy bucks. Believe me, this happens a lot more often than you may think! Obviously if you draw a premium tag and put forth a lot of time, boot leather, and effort you will likely be rewarded...but some years there may not be B&C bucks available even in top end units. There may be a different unit in a different region that's had prime conditions the past 3 to 4 years that has a lot more potential than possibly even a premium unit. It's always fun having the problem of picking and choosing between several 80 to 85" B&C bucks rather than spending an entire season searching for 1 B&C that "may" or "may not" exist in a unit.

Anyway, I thought I'd share a few things I've learned from the B&C spread sheet. Pretty amazing stuff that has changed the way I research and scout trophy units in Wyo and elsewhere.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
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Sebastian,

Glad you finally came to your senses...what Larry, myself, Jeff, and others have always known:

That pretty much tells me that antelope bucks often reach their peak at 4 to 5 years of age

Really? How profound of a conclusion...lots of word salad, spread sheets, to come up with that...amazing.

Sounds awfully similar to what I said:

The 5 B&C bucks my wife and I have shot are all 4+. We've shot another 5 or so that grossed 80, but netted under the B&C minimums, all those were 4+ as well. Another good pronghorn hunter in Wyoming that I know has shot at least 10 B&C bucks here, he said every single one he's shot were 4+. In that discussion, we thought that most of the bucks reach their peak at 4-6.
 

ScottR

Eastmans' Staff / Moderator
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Feb 3, 2014
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So back to the OP's question....

Wyoming is going to have a variety of conditions based on the region dictating the quality. Long and the short of it...when it comes to Antelope if you hunt hard enough you can find a good goat in about 75% of the units in the state on public land. The 25% that I am leaving out is the NE corner where public land is tough to come by and what is there has very pressured animals.

Now back to the age debate, I am kind of enjoying watching this from the outside.
 
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Bonecollector

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Mar 9, 2014
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Ohio
Sebastian,

Glad you finally came to your senses...what Larry, myself, Jeff, and others have always known:

That pretty much tells me that antelope bucks often reach their peak at 4 to 5 years of age

Really? How profound of a conclusion...lots of word salad, spread sheets, to come up with that...amazing.

Sounds awfully similar to what I said:

The 5 B&C bucks my wife and I have shot are all 4+. We've shot another 5 or so that grossed 80, but netted under the B&C minimums, all those were 4+ as well. Another good pronghorn hunter in Wyoming that I know has shot at least 10 B&C bucks here, he said every single one he's shot were 4+. In that discussion, we thought that most of the bucks reach their peak at 4-6.
Agreed, but don't be so quick to disregard ALL the facts;
"Another interesting statistic from the spread sheet is that 36% of total bucks scoring 90+ B&C were 2 to 3 years of age while only 4% were 6+ years of age. Pretty interesting how many young bucks score so well! "
It's true a larger percentage of B&C bucks (60%) are 4-5 years old, but 36% of young bucks scoring so well (80"+) is something that should NOT be disregarded so easily either..... This is the point others are making.
Not here to argue (although you're making it easy if I were ;)) , simply keeping everyone honest with the statistics and not opinions and local harvest data....

As ScottR said, big bucks can be taken just about anywhere in WY, but success goes up in the better genetics areas and those of higher population odds (blue chip)

BTW- you've taken some smoker 'lopes over your hunt career. Congrats. Hoping to cut my tag on a 80" in the next 2 year. I've already tagged a few nice ones in past few years all off public land- DIY.
 

accubond

New Member
Sep 13, 2011
31
11
Hamburg, mn
Thursday is going to be pretty interesting, with Wyoming being one of the last to post results I have a feeling that there were a LOT of people in the draw.
I agree, me and everybody else that got "creeped out" in CO scrambled to get an app or 2 in for WY and that, coupled with tag cuts and normal creep will have some staggering point creep IMO.
 
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ScottR

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I agree, me and everybody else that got "creeped out" in CO scrambled to get an app or 2 in for WY and that, coupled with tag cuts and normal creep will have some staggering point creep IMO.
It is going to be pretty interesting. The numbers of tags available simply aren't matching the number of applicants in the top pools. What will be interesting over the next few years is to see how many people just want out of the mousetrap and go after the "easy" to draw or OTC stuff.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
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Agreed, but don't be so quick to disregard ALL the facts;
"Another interesting statistic from the spread sheet is that 36% of total bucks scoring 90+ B&C were 2 to 3 years of age while only 4% were 6+ years of age. Pretty interesting how many young bucks score so well! "
It's true a larger percentage of B&C bucks (60%) are 4-5 years old, but 36% of young bucks scoring so well (80"+) is something that should NOT be disregarded so easily either..... This is the point others are making.
Not here to argue (although you're making it easy if I were ;)) , simply keeping everyone honest with the statistics and not opinions and local harvest data....

As ScottR said, big bucks can be taken just about anywhere in WY, but success goes up in the better genetics areas and those of higher population odds (blue chip)

BTW- you've taken some smoker 'lopes over your hunt career. Congrats. Hoping to cut my tag on a 80" in the next 2 year. I've already tagged a few nice ones in past few years all off public land- DIY.
I'm not shocked that 3 separate groups of hunters that have taken 30+ B&C pronghorns between them, killed in pretty large geographic area of Wyoming, have all aged them at 4+...

Didn't take a spread sheet or 2000 words to draw that conclusion.
 

Winchester

Veteran member
Mar 27, 2014
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Woodland Park, Colorado
Aww Com'on Buzz, just say it. We'll all remember this defining moment. :coffee::giggle:
Don’t hold your breath Bones !! 🤣

Actually, I’m enjoying this thread quite a bit.
I call tell Buzz is being his usual argumentative self, but since I blocked him a while ago, I can just see everyone else’s insights and input without having to read his nonsense. It’s pretty cool.
 
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ssulliv155

Member
Mar 8, 2015
64
24
Central WY
Thursday is going to be pretty interesting, with Wyoming being one of the last to post results I have a feeling that there were a LOT of people in the draw.
It’s hard to contain my excitement. I wish the Game and Fish would at least post the draw odds a few days before the results since the draws have already been completed. It would at least give us something to stew over in the meantime :LOL:
 

jimss

Active Member
Jun 10, 2012
219
89
Buzz, you were questioning about younger bucks in the 2 to 3 1/2 year classes even making B&C. Straight from the horse's mouth....."I doubt there's many, if any B&C bucks in Wyoming that are 2 years old...probably a handful at 3 years old. A vast, vast majority are 4+."

In reality there are many B&C bucks and super high scoring 87+" mega Wyo bucks that are only 2 to 3 1/2 years old. From the lengthy list of B&C I have that have been tooth-aged there were actually more 2 to 3 1/2 year old bucks than older age 6 to 7 year old bucks that made 82+ B&C.

So Buzz, do you now agree with me that there are actually more top scoring 2 to 3 1/2 year old bucks than 6 to 7 1/2 year old bucks in the B&C books that score over 87 B&C? That's the big question? It sounded like your early post mentioned that you thought there was close to 0 that were 2 1/2 year old and maybe a handful of 3 1/2 year olds that scored a measly 80+ B&C?
 
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Bonecollector

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I think you need a refresher in math and statistics...take Sebastian with you.
Easy buzz, I have 5 degrees and an MBA. I am a SVP of a major US bank. Yeah, I could be an educated idiot but doubtful considering my career success. The percentage numbers were pulled from his spreadsheet data. (36%). You even agreed with him when it benefited you. But you worded to state “he agreed with you”.

This thread served several purposes.

1 You don’t believe data even when presented from multiple reliable sources. Many EF members learned from this thread
2 You can never admit you’re wrong. I believe it is called narcism. (Sebastian statement reversed is one of several examples)
3 The folks on this forum see and understand the data for what it is as well as who you are.

I’m enjoying baiting you in entertaining the EF masses.
Lets see if you can walk away quietly yet… 🤷‍♂️😂
 

ScottR

Eastmans' Staff / Moderator
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Feb 3, 2014
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It’s hard to contain my excitement. I wish the Game and Fish would at least post the draw odds a few days before the results since the draws have already been completed. It would at least give us something to stew over in the meantime :LOL:
I would likely lose my mind waiting!
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
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Buzz, you were questioning about younger bucks in the 2 to 3 1/2 year classes even making B&C. Straight from the horse's mouth....."I doubt there's many, if any B&C bucks in Wyoming that are 2 years old...probably a handful at 3 years old. A vast, vast majority are 4+."

In reality there are many B&C bucks and super high scoring 87+" mega Wyo bucks that are only 2 to 3 1/2 years old. From the lengthy list of B&C I have that have been tooth-aged there were actually more 2 to 3 1/2 year old bucks than older age 6 to 7 year old bucks that made 82+ B&C.

So Buzz, do you now agree with me that there are actually more top scoring 2 to 3 1/2 year old bucks than 6 to 7 1/2 year old bucks in the B&C books that score over 87 B&C? That's the big question? It sounded like your early post mentioned that you thought there was close to 0 that were 2 1/2 year old and maybe a handful of 3 1/2 year olds that scored a measly 80+ B&C?
I bet you were a pro at twister when you were a kid...

Who said anything about 6-7 1/2 year old bucks? That's all you, from your supposed "data"...and maybe study up on why anyone would send a 2 or 3 year old buck to a lab for aging. That makes as much sense as a soup sandwich. Re-read some of the stuff Grimmets had to say about the reliability of the lab aged pronghorn...not exactly a glowing review.

Define "many" high scoring 2 and 3 year old bucks? Is that one a year? 2 a year? Maybe pull a percentage out of your hat...and be sure to include "Western States" rather than just Wyoming...confirmation bias.

Define how many of the total number of WY B&C bucks have ages associated with them...1%? 2%, 5% of the total B&C bucks entered from Wyoming...maybe?

No, I don't agree with your assessment at all...other than what I knew all along, a vast majority of WY B&C bucks are at least 4 years old.

The fact is, there aren't that many 2 and 3 year old bucks killed in WY that book, that's what I said, nothing about more 3 year old bucks than 7 1/2 year old bucks...never said it, never implied it, never even mentioned it. Another fact, a vast majority, are 4+...that includes all bucks 4 years old and older, which is easy to determine without a lab.

In reference to where a buck reaches its peak in horn growth, you'll never know what they'll be at 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 when they're dead at 3, fact.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
693
424
Easy buzz, I have 5 degrees and an MBA. I am a SVP of a major US bank. Yeah, I could be an educated idiot but doubtful considering my career success. The percentage numbers were pulled from his spreadsheet data. (36%). You even agreed with him when it benefited you. But you worded to state “he agreed with you”.

This thread served several purposes.

1 You don’t believe data even when presented from multiple reliable sources. Many EF members learned from this thread
2 You can never admit you’re wrong. I believe it is called narcism. (Sebastian statement reversed is one of several examples)
3 The folks on this forum see and understand the data for what it is as well as who you are.

I’m enjoying baiting you in entertaining the EF masses.
Lets see if you can walk away quietly yet… 🤷‍♂️😂
If you have 5 degrees, then you should be well aware of statistical error, sampling error, standard deviation, data set size, and how easily statistics can be manipulated, misunderstood, cherry picked, etc. etc. etc. By the way, have you seen the source of Sebastian's data? Cross referenced it? Done any quality control on it?

Just for the record, you aren't the only guy with a college degree or only person that deals professionally with data analysis and the things I listed above. I've been dealing with complex statistical analysis with data sets containing several hundred thousand variables per set...for well, going on 34 years.

I won't apologize for not having much faith in an imaginary data set put together by a guy that until this thread, didn't even know how to age a pronghorn, provided as statistically relevant data. In my line of work, I'd call his spread sheet statistically irrelevant.

The folks on this forum must be pretty special indeed, to "see and understand the data"...data that's never been provided.

I can put together a spreadsheet in about 5 minutes to confirm any bias I want...and apparently, you'll buy it, hook...line...sinker. Wish it was that easy to fool educated folks....oh, wait.

As far as being wrong...yeah, just about every day about all kinds of things. Aging pronghorn, in particular the one's I've shot...not so much.
 
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Bonecollector

Veteran member
Mar 9, 2014
5,589
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Ohio
I actually smiled when I logged in this morning just knowing.... just knowing you HAD to respond. :p
Of course I've not seen the data sampling, nor have I seen more than a handful of your pronghorn pictures. (They are seriously very nice by the way.) However, I don't know the age nor score of any of them and I can't simply take your word for it now can I.
I also typed my message in a way to test your narcissism level..... let's just say you did very well depending on how you view the results.

I've got to get to work, but we here at EF appreciate you buzz. Your entertainment value is priceless.
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