Hammonds pardoned

highplainsdrifter

Very Active Member
May 4, 2011
703
128
Wyoming
It concerns me that Trump's pardon implies that he is condoning the actions of the Hammonds and the Bundys. The Hammonds only had a short time left on their sentences. Trump should have let it be, rather than convey the message he is supportive. Very bad move on Trump's part!
 

JimP

Administrator
Mar 28, 2016
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Gypsum, Co
I personally think that he should of commuted the sentence rather than giving them a pardon. With a pardon it is like they did nothing wrong.

No matter where you stand on the issue of the case or cases they did do something illegal.

In the end two wrongs don't make it right.
 

Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
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Oregon
I was not aware of that testimony, but it is pretty damning if it's true. The WSJ had an op-ed piece today in which they cited the pressure from the feds to drive out private landowners in order to set up a bird sanctuary.

It also related how the Obama administration, when they didn't like the sentence of the first judge, appealed the case and a different judge handed out prison sentences.

That's what scares me - the kind of vindictive power the Obama administration exercised in many different instances that are still coming to light. That and the growing hatred I see all around us for people with different views than one's own fanned by the TV networks' desire to air the most angry people they can find is a cancer that is eating up our nation and is making free speech and politically incorrect views increasingly dangerous.
The relative referred to is a young family member of significantly dimished mental capacity if I recall correctly. Concerns abound there about the Feds conduct.
 

Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
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Dolores, Colorado
Tons of stuff on both sides of the issue, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle. They would get no pardon from me.

IMHO the real problem is how the ranchers who lease federal land view the situation. I think they feel it is their right to do whatever they want because they (or their families) have leased the land & grazing rights for so long. There needs to be usage rules and fees for the use of OUR land by private individuals. I also believe that the public should have access to this land for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, etc.
 

mallardsx2

Veteran member
Jul 8, 2015
3,941
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Tons of stuff on both sides of the issue, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle. They would get no pardon from me.

IMHO the real problem is how the ranchers who lease federal land view the situation. I think they feel it is their right to do whatever they want because they (or their families) have leased the land & grazing rights for so long. There needs to be usage rules and fees for the use of OUR land by private individuals. I also believe that the public should have access to this land for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, etc.
I didn't know how to word it earlier when I went to reply so I waited until I could plagiarize someone else...lol

I agree with CC ^^ statement 100%.
 

Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
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Oregon
Tons of stuff on both sides of the issue, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle. They would get no pardon from me.

IMHO the real problem is how the ranchers who lease federal land view the situation. I think they feel it is their right to do whatever they want because they (or their families) have leased the land & grazing rights for so long. There needs to be usage rules and fees for the use of OUR land by private individuals. I also believe that the public should have access to this land for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, etc.
I think your response is more relevant to the Bundy’s in NV, than the Hammonds in OR. The Bundy’s used the Hammonds situation for publicity, despite the Hammonds request not to. Hammonds issue was not about paying BLM leases, but about the Feds wanting their privately owned land for a wildlife refuge expansion. Imagine being followed around by a cop as you drive, getting a ticket for every small violation, 1 mph over, ticket. That’s similar to how this started. Then the Hammonds made a mistake, paid for it as they should, then the govt. goes back and adds jail time. No good...
 

rammont

Active Member
Oct 31, 2016
228
4
Montana
In my opinion most people base their remarks on rumor and innuendo, very few know the actual facts of the case and whether they do know the facts or not an awful lot of people form their opinions on generalities rather than the specifics of the Hammond case.


1. The Hammonds were never charged with poaching animals because there was never any proof that they had in fact poached deer.
2. They were convicted of starting two fires, one each on two separate occasions over the span of several years.
3. The first fire was a weed burn-off that burned 139 acres of Federal Land adjacent to the Hammond's property.
4. The second fire was a back-fire that was an attempt to stop a lightening caused wildfire from burning their stored winter hay, it burned "about" 1 acre of Federal land (this was during the Krumbo Butte fire which burned over 1,000 acres of Federal land) that was valued at less than $100.
5. This second fire ("about" 1 acre) was the incident that the Federal prosecutors claimed had endangered fire fighters.
6. The Hammonds were taken to court on 19 counts of arson over a 20 year period. After failing to successfully prosecute them for two years the Government changed the charges to 9 counts involving four fires over about 6 years. Basically the Government recognized that they were not going to win so they changed their charges hoping to have a better chance of conviction.
7. The Hammonds were acquitted for all but 2 of the 9 charges.
8. The relative that testified against them did so 8 years after he helped light the 2001 weed burn, the same relative is now 30 years old and still can't find continuous employment. His testimony was partially refuted by another witness that was able to prove that the Hammond boy was either in error or lying.
9. Rather than prosecuting and sentencing the Hammonds under BLM land use statutes the Federal Government decided to file charges under the Federal legal guidelines developed for terrorists.
10. 3 years after being convicted for setting the two fires that damaged Federal property, which the Hammonds admitted to, the 9th Circuit Court decided that they had to be re-sentenced and 2 years after that, in 2016, they were each sentenced to 5 years in Federal prison.



These facts were obtained by reading many documents from the courts, lawyer briefs, court summaries, news articles etc.. These facts, in conjunction with the well documented attempts by the Federal Government to increase the size of the wildlife preserve by forcing private property owners out, make me feel that the real problem is government over-reach and harassment. I don't see where the Hammonds have done anything that I wouldn't have done and I don't see any intention to violate the law.

Anybody that doesn't see a problem with the Federal government hounding someone for almost 20 years over less than 140 acres of burned grass and mesquite just doesn't have any understanding of the threat that this kind of aggressiveness presents to all of our freedoms.
 

Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
4
Oregon
In my opinion most people base their remarks on rumor and innuendo, very few know the actual facts of the case and whether they do know the facts or not an awful lot of people form their opinions on generalities rather than the specifics of the Hammond case.


1. The Hammonds were never charged with poaching animals because there was never any proof that they had in fact poached deer.
2. They were convicted of starting two fires, one each on two separate occasions over the span of several years.
3. The first fire was a weed burn-off that burned 139 acres of Federal Land adjacent to the Hammond's property.
4. The second fire was a back-fire that was an attempt to stop a lightening caused wildfire from burning their stored winter hay, it burned "about" 1 acre of Federal land (this was during the Krumbo Butte fire which burned over 1,000 acres of Federal land) that was valued at less than $100.
5. This second fire ("about" 1 acre) was the incident that the Federal prosecutors claimed had endangered fire fighters.
6. The Hammonds were taken to court on 19 counts of arson over a 20 year period. After failing to successfully prosecute them for two years the Government changed the charges to 9 counts involving four fires over about 6 years. Basically the Government recognized that they were not going to win so they changed their charges hoping to have a better chance of conviction.
7. The Hammonds were acquitted for all but 2 of the 9 charges.
8. The relative that testified against them did so 8 years after he helped light the 2001 weed burn, the same relative is now 30 years old and still can't find continuous employment. His testimony was partially refuted by another witness that was able to prove that the Hammond boy was either in error or lying.
9. Rather than prosecuting and sentencing the Hammonds under BLM land use statutes the Federal Government decided to file charges under the Federal legal guidelines developed for terrorists.
10. 3 years after being convicted for setting the two fires that damaged Federal property, which the Hammonds admitted to, the 9th Circuit Court decided that they had to be re-sentenced and 2 years after that, in 2016, they were each sentenced to 5 years in Federal prison.



These facts were obtained by reading many documents from the courts, lawyer briefs, court summaries, news articles etc.. These facts, in conjunction with the well documented attempts by the Federal Government to increase the size of the wildlife preserve by forcing private property owners out, make me feel that the real problem is government over-reach and harassment. I don't see where the Hammonds have done anything that I wouldn't have done and I don't see any intention to violate the law.

Anybody that doesn't see a problem with the Federal government hounding someone for almost 20 years over less than 140 acres of burned grass and mesquite just doesn't have any understanding of the threat that this kind of aggressiveness presents to all of our freedoms.
You sir have the facts and are spot on IMO.
 

buckbull

Veteran member
Jun 20, 2011
2,170
1,360
However, Hammond was arrested and convicted of interfering with a hunting party on public land 2 yrs prior to the poaching accusation. That gives strong credence to them poaching Deer just to simply piss off the outfitter.

http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/01/05/the-timeline-for-the-oregon-rancher-arsonists/


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Seems like the hammonds are nothing but trouble. Using sandpaper to remove a tattoo from a 16 year old boy! Crimey, that guy should be sitting in jail for that alone.
 

kidoggy

Veteran member
Apr 23, 2016
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dirtbags on both sides of the law,. nothing but dirtbags. probably the best thing would be for all involved on both sides to do some serious time
 

rammont

Active Member
Oct 31, 2016
228
4
Montana
However, Hammond was arrested and convicted of interfering with a hunting party on public land 2 yrs prior to the poaching accusation. That gives strong credence to them poaching Deer just to simply piss off the outfitter.

http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/01/05/the-timeline-for-the-oregon-rancher-arsonists/


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You've got to be kidding, you think that any rational human being would commit a crime just to piss off somebody? Since the crime would have no effect on the guy that you wanted to piss how why would you commit the crime, you are only putting yourself in jeopardy with no chance of achieving your goal. That's really stretching things to expect anybody to accept that idea, it would be similar to somebody stealing my cell phone just to piss you off, it has no effect on you whatsoever so you wouldn't even care that my phone was stolen.

It's far more likely that the hunting guide that claimed that the Hammonds poached was the same guy that the Hammonds supposedly interfered with. In other words, it's far more likely that the guide lied to get back at the Hammonds. I also wonder why the guide (Gordon Choate) waited for 11 years before telling anybody about the poaching. As a professional guide it seems to me that if he saw poachers in 2001 he should have reported it to law enforcement officials but instead he waited 11 years and then he still didn't report it as a crime, his testimony was used as an attack against the character of defendant in a trial. Your whole remark is moot anyways because the fact is that the Hammonds were not even charged with poaching, which implies that even the prosecuting attorney felt that the poaching charge was baseless or at least impossible to prove.

Regardless, I'd like to see your proof that the Hammonds were arrested, charged, and convicted of interfering with a hunting party. Third party hearsay doesn't count, it needs to be actual court documentation. Since most people simply repeat things that they have heard or read on the Internet, I wont accept anything but factual proof.
 

rammont

Active Member
Oct 31, 2016
228
4
Montana
Seems like the hammonds are nothing but trouble. Using sandpaper to remove a tattoo from a 16 year old boy! Crimey, that guy should be sitting in jail for that alone.
This is the same kid (Dusty) that still can't hold a job at 30 years old and the Hammonds were assigned custody of because he had behavioral issues.

The Hammonds were investigated and they were allowed to perform public service and take anger managment classes as a resolution.

It seems to me that if the investigators could prove that the Hammonds had actually done this wouldn't they have been charged with child abuse, and isn't the mandatory sentencing for child abuse time in prison, not public service?

So what was the proof that they had actually done this? From what I've read it was a he-said, she-said situation, there was no proof of how it happened and Dusty said it was relatives that did it to him and the relatives said it was Dusty that did it to himself. What's more, since the sanding was done to remove tattoos that Dusty had put on his chest with a paper clip (prison tats) then I really have to wonder who would have been more likely to use the sandpaper on the kid, the adults who didn't have any history of this kind of issue or the kid that had behavioral issues and who didn't have a problem with stabbing himself with a paper clip many times to create two tattoos?
 

AT Hiker

Very Active Member
Aug 2, 2012
638
0
Tennessee
You've got to be kidding, you think that any rational human being would commit a crime just to piss off somebody? Since the crime would have no effect on the guy that you wanted to piss how why would you commit the crime, you are only putting yourself in jeopardy with no chance of achieving your goal.
It?s up for debate if these are rational human beings.
You do realize the majority of events that took place with this whole debacle can be describe as this, right?

Maybe my opinion on why he poached the deer is off/wrong, just putting pieces together of past events. From my understanding of the poaching side of the case and some other aspects, they pleaded guilty to lesser charges...hence the appeal.

I?m not going through a FOI request to get arrest documents to appease you to see whether or not they were indeed arrested in 1999 for interfering with a hunting party. I?m mean why would any rational reporter want to lie just to piss someone off?

If the media is full of misinformation about this case and they are conspiring with Obama?s DOJ to acquire extra land via a modern day rancher genocide then President Trump needs to do more than a pardon, maybe finish draining the swamp.


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Slugz

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Oct 12, 2014
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Casper, Wyoming
The whole thing is a mess, bad info on tv, arguably skewing of the facts......etc etc......the list goes on. Not a stable group of people in the end making bad decisions.
The way I see it at minimum...
1) they got a great deal grazing the land for profit
2) they poached
3) they tried to cover up the poaching
4) they cost the taxpayer a ton of my money and risked lives
5) they should be punished and pay for it all.

Whole thing is ridiculous. He was on the news this am crying to the reporter. Give me a break. It wasn't his land he was renting it.
 

kidoggy

Veteran member
Apr 23, 2016
9,847
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idaho
The whole thing is a mess, bad info on tv, arguably skewing of the facts......etc etc......the list goes on. Not a stable group of people in the end making bad decisions.
The way I see it at minimum...
1) they got a great deal grazing the land for profit
2) they poached
3) they tried to cover up the poaching
4) they cost the taxpayer a ton of my money and risked lives
5) they should be punished and pay for it all.

Whole thing is ridiculous. He was on the news this am crying to the reporter. Give me a break. It wasn't his land he was renting it.
these ranchers believe it IS their land and no laws apply to them .THAT is the core of the problem.