Outfitters selling info

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
Sure would, savvy. Perhaps do some research on Supreme court rulings, savvy. Your opinion is just that, not fact, savvy.
Also, I find it so sad that you think more government regulations are the answer.
I have looked into 1st amendment rulings, and there are lots of examples of laws and regulations that ARE NOT violations of 1st amendment rights even though they've reached the Supreme court. Do some research.

What I find sad is that rules, laws and regulations are needed to be passed in the first place, because a small minority of idiots seem to think they're more special and more entitled than everyone else. In particular in regard to hunting and fishing regulations, but that transfers over to lots of other things in everyday life. Rules are not made for the majority, rather the few, that need to be forced to do the right thing.

If people did the right thing, there would be no reason for laws, regulations, rules, etc. Just not a reality when everyone thinks they're special, because mama and daddy told them so.

I would also suggest that our Republic is a nation of laws, if you don't like government regulations, laws, etc. then move somewhere else.

I find it pretty easy to follow the rules and laws of the United States, I have no grievance with our government and I love this country.

You have yourself a good day now...
 
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go_deep

Veteran member
Nov 30, 2014
2,650
1,984
Wyoming
I personally have zero interest in anyone being able tell sell a gps location.
You want to help someone out, and point them in the right direction, good for you. Been there helped people, and I'll do it again, for free.
You'd have to ask yourself why someone who makes a living at know where animals are would be willing to sell that information to anyone? It would lead me to question if its accurate? How many other people have they sold the information to? Why would they part with this information if that's how they make a living by guiding? Honestly with the internet, your only going to be able to sell that GPS location a couple times at best.
 

buckbull

Veteran member
Jun 20, 2011
2,170
1,360
I agree with your options available but the part your missing is that hunts and # of hunters available are limited. For example, out of 100 guys that draw a tag, maybe 10 are willing to pay for some kind of assistance. Maybe that's a guided hunt, a drop camp, or the subject of our discussion. In my eyes, the outfitters stand to lose the most if people are allowed to sell locations/scouting. If 3 of those 10 guys choose that route, they lose 3 higher paying clients. I could be wrong, but I bet the highest opposition is going to be coming from outfitters or organizations that benefit from them...WG&F being one.
While my numbers are an exaggeration I think it would only take 2 guys showing up in the same location to glass and to start having a conversation about why they are there that results in 2 pissed off guys.
 

Horsenhike

Very Active Member
Nov 11, 2015
668
0
Eastern SD
Ya, I listened to that podcast. Not for me I suppose, but if I drew a Strip tag I sure wouldn't want to go into it blind knowing my time would be short.

Not everyone has the ability to spend six weeks every fall roaming the west hunting different states. Good for those who can, I'm jealous, but that is not my wife and I.

"There out to be a law!" is very rarely my reaction to anything.
 

Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
4
Oregon
Some people don't have the time to get out and do that kind of scouting not to mention that if it is a out of state hunt they might only have a chance to get to the hunting area once before their hunt starts.

It is not much different than actually hiring a outfitter. When you hire a outfitter you are paying for his knowelege of the area and the animal movements at certain times of the year. So now they are offering advise to hunters on where to go, and instead of having to provide a camp for them they are giving advise on where to go. There is also no difference between that and a person asking on a forum such as this one except that they are getting paid for their advise instead of giving it out free.

It is my understanding that Wyoming is trying to pass a law that will restrict this type of business. But all I have heard about it is through other forums.
I generally agree with you Jim. Those so strongly against this are less than a stones throw from banning guided hunts... I'm not going to shoot inside the tent. Where legal, I'm 100% fine with it.
 

Maxhunter

Veteran member
Apr 10, 2011
1,434
1,090
Wyoming
There probably not gong to sell you thier best spots, but will point you in the right direction. If your willing to part with your cash their willing to take it.
 

Slugz

Veteran member
Oct 12, 2014
3,664
2,341
55
Casper, Wyoming
As long as there is an *ss there will be a seat for it. Especially if there is a demand and someone wants to pay. If it's legal then I have no issue with it. I don't agree with it though.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
I generally agree with you Jim. Those so strongly against this are less than a stones throw from banning guided hunts... I'm not going to shoot inside the tent. Where legal, I'm 100% fine with it.
The Wyoming bill was brought to the legislature by WYOGA...

You saying they're shooting inside their own tent?
 
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RJW

Member
Jan 2, 2013
50
0
wapiti, wy
I was just listening to a podcast from another host not Eastmans Elevated discussing some outfitters that will sell info to clients. Specific Info like where to glass from, canyons to hunt in, and where to look for the specific species your hunting.

What's your opinion on this?
well....hmmm. ok, here's some thoughts, consider the source (me) and take it for what its worth, keeping in mind if i learn something new my opinion may change.

first thoughts are, well, boiled down honestly the state of affairs here changes day by day and within the same day sometimes so telling someone where to sit and glass is really more like ripping some dude off than it is helping anyone.

on a certain day if the wind and weather are right I can shoot more than half a dozen different big game animals right from my yard.

the year before or the year after on that same week you'd call me a dang liar if I told you there were ANY critters on my land at all!
It really depends and is weather dependent among other things, like how many muley hunters got guided through that draw that day, etc etc etc.

I don't know if its any help at all...I'm reminded of several young hunters coming here from out of state, asked for help, I was watching deer and elk as I responded to their questions, they ignored my advice on one hand and the others went up the wrong valley, hell wrong side of the whole unit! end result they both had great hunts and killed what they hoped for, thanked me over and over.....and neither group had done what I said to do....that's how good of a guide I am, I can get them to kill critters where they ain't! :)
 
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Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
4
Oregon
The Wyoming bill was brought to the legislature by WYOGA...

You saying they're shooting inside their own tent?
Nope. Was referring to you and others so harshly condemning the practice. Similar to rifle hunters bashing bow hunters, condemning hunting with dogs, all by other hunters, or things of a similar nature. Fishermen are prone to the same malady in my experience. Ergo my use of the phrasing "I'm not.... But nice try at a straw man argument.
 

Naturebob

Active Member
Feb 28, 2016
224
175
68
phoenix, az.
Buzz I dissagree. Cause some one works a real job some times 70 hours a week and a family ,that means they shouldn't go hunting..I don't care much for guided hunts,and generally find my own animals, but some guys are not capable of going in areas blind.As I think of good hunters having instinct. I do. But I know a lot that don't have that ability like You or I. Give them a chance.. Especilly from out of state...Thanks .......BOB!
 

ColoradoV

Very Active Member
Oct 4, 2011
820
941
One of the biggest "outfitters" selling GPS coordinates here in colorado has a bit of history... Yea he got caught poaching deer and leaving them lay to rot. Then at another time - faking cancer to get his points back - now he sells scouting packages... Or makes his living off the wildlife of colorado on public land after getting CONVICTED of POACHING....... Flat sickening period..

Press release is below and more of these type of folks are doing this crap every year. Guys like this make all hunter look bad period.

But even a poacher will have lazy Johns who will gladly pay him for his info.. Hey what ever it takes right boys! IMO if you are so lazy that you have a poacher do your scouting just go buy a mount and tell the fam/friends you shot it. Same thing in my book... Lazy uncommitted hunters looking to become instafamous are killing our past time.

Sad...





Jeff Coldwell 43, of Firestone Colorado, of Antler Quest, has pleaded guilty to poaching charges as well as leaving the poached deer to rot.

Jeff Coldwell pleaded guilty to illegal possession of 3 or more in Weld county. In addition to the foritfiture of the illigally taken wildlife he forfeited his muzzleloader and the court fined him $7,500 with 36 months probation. Coldwell also pled guilty to abuse of public records in Adams County and received a 2 year deferred sentence for false statements made regarding a bear license. The courts donated a portion of his fine to Operation Game Thief.

The abuses also led the Colorado Wildlife Commission to suspend Coldwell?s privilege of applying for, purchasing, or exercising the benefits conferred by all DOW licenses for 20 years. His license privileges are also suspended in 22 Wildlife Violator Compact states.

It all began with a hunch. Wildlife Officer Windi Padia contacted Jeff Coldwell while on ATV patrol in Game Management Unit 20 during the 2005 muzzleloader season. Coldwell had a muzzleloader, but no hunting license in his possession. Noticing a clump of deer hair near his truck, Padia inquired further, but Coldwell denied taking a deer. Coldwell was visibly nervous throughout the contact and told Padia he had been hunting with a family member who had a deer license for GMU 18, about seven miles to the west and over the Continental Divide. After checking the records for Coldwell?s license, Officer Padia found that it was valid for GMU 20 only.

Additional Wildlife Officers, Aimee Ryel and John Koehler, were engaged to conduct interviews in Coldwell?s hometown, whereupon he admitted he had taken a large mule deer buck illegally in GMU 18 and had already transported the cape out of the unit by backpack. Another deer was shot by the licensed family member and both animals were left to rot. Officers hiked to the kill site and located the trophy-quality skinned buck, as well as a quartered buck. The meat was only salvageable on one of the animals.

Now, the full arm of the law reached in--a search warrant was obtained for Coldwell?s residence yielding evidence that Coldwell used another family member's license to tag a buck in 2000. Padia seized Coldwell?s computer and found further evidence of a wildlife violation--emails from Coldwell showed that he had gone bear hunting in 2005 and finding that people were camped near his hunting spot, promptly told a representative from the DOW that he was not able to go on his bear hunt due to medical issues. Six bear preference points were reinstated to Coldwell based on his statements. This fraudulent activity led Officer Padia to charge him with abuse of public records. After disposition of the case in Adams County, his bear preference points were revoked.

In connection with the case, two members of Jeff Coldwell?s family have received citations for wildlife violations and have chosen to pay their fines.

One poaching leads to proof of another

Evidence also seized from Coldwell?s computer revealed information from a 2003 Trophy Hunter magazine article depicting Coldwell in Fox Park, also in GMU 18, with a harvested buck. This evidence prompted Officer Padia to obtain another search warrant for his residence. The buck in question was seized and it was determined that Coldwell poached it in 2003 in GMU 18 during muzzleloader season. He did not have a license for GMU 18 that year.

?Transferring licenses, a form of ?party hunting?, has severely negative impacts on our wildlife,? said Officer Windi Padia. ?Hunting opportunities are regulated for a reason?any additional opportunity created by a poacher is one less opportunity for an ethical hunter. Everyone who values our wildlife should know that poaching doesn?t pay.?

You can help stop poaching. If you see a poaching incident, report it. Poaching is a crime against you, your neighbor, and everyone else in the state of Colorado. Call 1-877-COLO-OGT toll-free or Verizon cell phone users can just dial #OGT. If you'd like, you can e-mail us at [email protected] .
 

kidoggy

Veteran member
Apr 23, 2016
9,847
10,860
58
idaho
I have looked into 1st amendment rulings, and there are lots of examples of laws and regulations that ARE NOT violations of 1st amendment rights even though they've reached the Supreme court. Do some research.

What I find sad is that rules, laws and regulations are needed to be passed in the first place, because a small minority of idiots seem to think they're more special and more entitled than everyone else. In particular in regard to hunting and fishing regulations, but that transfers over to lots of other things in everyday life. Rules are not made for the majority, rather the few, that need to be forced to do the right thing.

If people did the right thing, there would be no reason for laws, regulations, rules, etc. Just not a reality when everyone thinks they're special, because mama and daddy told them so.

I would also suggest that our Republic is a nation of laws, if you don't like government regulations, laws, etc. then move somewhere else.

I find it pretty easy to follow the rules and laws of the United States, I have no grievance with our government and I love this country.

You have yourself a good day now...


you are correct.we are a nation of laws . you don't have to like said laws but you do have to obey them.
would only add that those who don't like a law, should get off their duffs and fight to change them.that's the great thing about this nation,you don't have to move somewhere else . we have a system in place to right wrongs.
it can be done . it's how some of the stupid laws got passed in first place.

I have no need or desire to buy info from a outfitter. personally , killing an animal means nothing if I can't do it myself but also don't really care if someone wants to pay for such info.
 
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BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
Nope. Was referring to you and others so harshly condemning the practice. Similar to rifle hunters bashing bow hunters, condemning hunting with dogs, all by other hunters, or things of a similar nature. Fishermen are prone to the same malady in my experience. Ergo my use of the phrasing "I'm not.... But nice try at a straw man argument.
If you want to pitch chit...blame the Wyoming outfitters and guides association and muley fanatics, they're the ones that approached the legislature and wrote the current bill, not me. In case you question how I know, I was at the TRW meeting in Lander this past summer when the WYOGA lobbyist asked them to carry the legislation. Nobody in the room spoke against the legislation, including the WYGF Department.

All I'm trying to do is fix their idea so it makes sense and doesn't legitimize the practice of selling info, which is exactly what the current bill will end up doing.

I think you're very uninformed about this legislation, why it was brought up, and by whom.

I don't think you shot inside the tent...you totally misfired.
 
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BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
Buzz I dissagree. Cause some one works a real job some times 70 hours a week and a family ,that means they shouldn't go hunting..I don't care much for guided hunts,and generally find my own animals, but some guys are not capable of going in areas blind.As I think of good hunters having instinct. I do. But I know a lot that don't have that ability like You or I. Give them a chance.. Especilly from out of state...Thanks .......BOB!
Guided hunts are a totally different thing, and I agree with you, they have their place no doubt.

That's not what the concern is, and never has been. Thanks.
 

Hilltop

Veteran member
Feb 25, 2014
3,848
2,231
Eastern Nebraska
Why is WYOGA the one trying to pass this law? Simple- it's money. I'm ok if the WG&F pushes a law through based on morals and management that betters wildlife and the experience but to me, this is simply about money. Our right or wrong moral arguments don't mean anything here imo. WYOGA members stand to lose money so they are fighting it. Same reason Wyoming has the silly wilderness law.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
Why is WYOGA the one trying to pass this law? Simple- it's money. I'm ok if the WG&F pushes a law through based on morals and management that betters wildlife and the experience but to me, this is simply about money. Our right or wrong moral arguments don't mean anything here imo. WYOGA members stand to lose money so they are fighting it. Same reason Wyoming has the silly wilderness law.
Correct, but here's the problem...well a couple problems.

Number 1, WYOGA needs to stop running to the legislature every time they have a problem. This SHOULD be handled at the commission level and dealt with in Chapter 44 regulations.

Number 2, the current legislation exempts outfitters from selling information, which them makes the practice legitimate. It gives a loophole to the very practice that they're trying to stop. The legislation and ultimately the Statute needs to keep everyone from selling information, including outfitters. Otherwise, I say keep it open to everyone and simply kill the legislation.

Anybody want to talk about the newly released PreHunt service????
 

480/277

Very Active Member
Feb 23, 2013
629
1
"There out to be a law!" is very rarely my reaction to anything.
This^^^^^

But I also agree with Buzz that it's sad men can not regulate themselves.

And it's sad to see hunting going the way it is. Is there a line where we become so reliant on technology, that it just becomes killing and not hunting.

I'm the last guy to want to impose a law against a legal activity. But I find it sad we have to plaster properties with cameras so we can "inventory" our deer to formulate a "hit list".

How on earth did Gordon Eastman ever kill anything?.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

mallardsx2

Veteran member
Jul 8, 2015
3,941
3,258
This^^^^^

But I also agree with Buzz that it's sad men can not regulate themselves.

And it's sad to see hunting going the way it is. Is there a line where we become so reliant on technology, that it just becomes killing and not hunting.

I'm the last guy to want to impose a law against a legal activity. But I find it sad we have to plaster properties with cameras so we can "inventory" our deer to formulate a "hit list".

How on earth did Gordon Eastman ever kill anything?.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A lot of the time he flew around in an airplane and looked for them from what I read about him....lol

And I mean no disrespect by saying that.
 

Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
4
Oregon
If you want to pitch chit...blame the Wyoming outfitters and guides association and muley fanatics, they're the ones that approached the legislature and wrote the current bill, not me. In case you question how I know, I was at the TRW meeting in Lander this past summer when the WYOGA lobbyist asked them to carry the legislation. Nobody in the room spoke against the legislation, including the WYGF Department.

All I'm trying to do is fix their idea so it makes sense and doesn't legitimize the practice of selling info, which is exactly what the current bill will end up doing.

I think you're very uninformed about this legislation, why it was brought up, and by whom.

I don't think you shot inside the tent...you totally misfired.
Not pitching anything, I'll leave that to you. Was simply sticking to the question posed by the OP. Essentially, I'm fine with legal means of hunting, whether I like it or not. What I think we should all avoid is bashing others that may engage in legal activities we may not support. Try to change it, perfectly legit, just like to see folks do it in a manner that does not rely on trying to make the other look bad/wrong etc.

I won't try and explain to you why shooting inside the tent applied to some of your and others remarks, it'd be a waste of my time.