Sell Your Soul For A Buck...

[480/277]

I am with grizzly, and my economics professor, follow the money .

 

[Micah S]

More guide welfare in Wyoming.

 

[shootbrownelk]

I like the idea of the bill, but guides and outfitters should be treated the same as the general public. The game animals are governed by the state agencies, generally along with federal agencies. Outfitters and guides don't get to be exempt from laws while the general public are held to a different standard.

The Outfitters are held to a different standard MF....who do you think got the Non-residents banned from hunting the wilderness areas? The outfitters and Ranchers who outfit....legally and illegally. The fella who holds the chair on the committee that is debating this issue is an outfitter himself. Absolutely NO conflict of interest there, yeah, right.

 

[Horsenhike]

thank you, I figure if this forum is going to gossip about someone, we should at least know, who the gossip is about.

Far from gossip, this situation is being discussed everywhere online. Including on Monstermuleys by Founder. These are all public conversations taking place in the public domain regarding ethics issues that matter to us all, regardless of where you stand. I've been watching it since last year when a significant debate began over the ethics of selling pictures and GPS coordinates to pre-scouted bucks.

Interesting I think.

 

[mallardsx2]

I guess the one thing that comes to mind about hunting is that the internet and access to information has been a game changer. lol

 

[gonhunting247]

The point here is...Outfitters and guides..no matter what you think of them as a DIY hunter..are licensed by the state, pay taxes, have permits from federal government to operate etc...whereas the person this law is aimed at is making money off animals, not paying taxes to the state, not licensed etc. . There is another forum whos owner is the big reason this law has come about. If you go there and read the long debated topics about his practice, I have zero respect for his lack of ethics and morals regarding hunting. He is strictly out for himself and doesnt give a damn about the game he is selling. Outfitters do respect the game, because it is how they make a living. And no matter how much many of you dont care for them, Outfitters are the #1 force fighting for Non-resident tags and quotas in their states, because it is who they make their living off!

I'm good with all of this, but the last sentence. It seems like it would be a little more accurate to say Outfitters are the #1 force fighting for non-resident tags and quotas for non-residents that use guides in their states. Any tags that are gained for the DIY non-resident are strictly a by-product. I'm not really complaining yet , but I do think that's a much more accurate assessment.

Just for the record I don't like what the guy is doing either!

 

[mntnguide]

[/U]

I'm good with all of this, but the last sentence. It seems like it would be a little more accurate to say Outfitters are the #1 force fighting for non-resident tags and quotas for non-residents that use guides in their states. Any tags that are gained for the DIY non-resident are strictly a by-product. I'm not really complaining yet , but I do think that's a much more accurate assessment.

Just for the record I don't like what the guy is doing either!

Well in Wyoming.. there are no guaranteed tags to an outfitted hunter over a DIY hunter. So the non-res quotas are exactly the same no matter if you are going guided or not. A person must draw a tag then they can consider hiring the outfitter. Other states are different, but here the non-res quota make no difference whether you are guided or not. Wyoming has one of the highest allotted quota systems for non-resident...and that is because the outfitters association continues to push for that not to be changed like many people including myself wish it would go to a 90-10 split similar to many other states

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[Triple BB]

I, like many residents I know support the wilderness rule. Just about every western state limits non residents in various ways. However the internet whiners seem to hammer on Wyoming more than any other state even though we own the game within our borders. On the flip side, I'd gladly trade a 90/10 split for loss of the wilderness rule...

 

[Hilltop]

As a formed resident guide, and now non-resident hunter, I can see both sides of the situation. The outfitters are the bad guys to some and to others a means for fulfilling lifelong dreams. The reality is, the topic at hand is bad for both sides in my opinion. Selling of GPS coordinates isn't fair chase imo and hurts the outfitters and the DIY guys.

 

[Daubs]

Monster-Muleys.com site is horrible and completely outdated. I registered a few years back when i was getting in to Mule deer hunting. One member was very helpful (local Nebraska guy like me), and helped me get my start. Seems like everyone else was interested in scoring trail cam pictures, or asking "is he a shooter..." I haven't been back since.

I don't see outfitters as good or bad.

Sad that some people will go to great lengths to line their own pockets / pad their bank account. Unfortunately some of these same people are well connected politically, and know how to get bills passed in to law without much publicity.

Follow the money...

 

[fackelberry]

I'm a resident and think this is a good idea for the most part. Some Outfitters are great and some are not, just like some hunters. I used to guide for an outfitter on my friends ranch, he is a very popular Outfitter and even has a T.V. show. I won't say who, but when i guided for him for over 3 years, he seemed to want to rush hunters through not try real hard to get them trophy animals and get them out of camp so the next hunter could come in. He was just looking at dollar signs and more turnover with hunters. I ALWAYS tried to get my hunters quality animals, would constantly have them pass up animals to have an opportunity at bigger ones. I never had a complaint from ANY of my hunters, maybe a few were sore or tired from walking or looking through binos and spotting scopes all day, but all were more than happy with the outcome when it was said and done. I quit guiding after 3 years with this outfitter cause the way he ran his operation. So some are good and some are bad in alot of different ways.

I personally don't like how people are buying world record animals now days. Like the Spider Bull, The P&Y World Record mule deer from Mexico. Isn't alot of the enjoyment when hunting is finding animals like this by yourself or with hunting buddies and outsmarting other hunters to get them or have a chance to get them? I have arguments with a co-worker all the time because he braggs about how big his animals are or how easy he had it when harvesting his animals on private land. The funny thing is my animals that i shot by myself off public land are bigger than any of his he got off private. I feel more accomplished i did it myself and beat other hunters to them. I have always liked the guys who work hard for their animals and take them legally, like the guy from Montana who shot the P&Y world record elk, over someone that pays an Outfitter hundreds of thousands of dollars to scout and pretty much tie up a world record and then fly in for a day just to pull the trigger, and get pictures then fly home and see what other World Record he can buy! Just my thoughts!

 

[mgorm16640]

This seems a lot like Uber vs Taxi Drivers debate, new technology significantly altering an industry and threatening the government licensed vendors, with higher overheads.

I don't know anything about the guy on monster muleys selling coordinates, but as a general rule, I don't have a problem with the practice. The guy on that site may be unethical, I have no idea, but there are also more than a few unethical outfitters/guides. Just because you have been licensed by the state agency doesn't magically impart ethical behavior.

I don't see a difference between this practice and a guy hiring an outfitter or asking for advice on a particular unit one the net. Knowing where a big bull or buck is, doesn't necessarily equate to having the skills or patience to hunt it successfully.

If I had to make the investment in time and money to travel West in order to hunt, I would be tempted to buy coordinates if I couldn't come up the thousands an outfitter charges. Especially in today?s hunting culture that has become so obsessed counting inches.

I have nothing against outfitters, they work darn hard for their money. I think this is just an example of technology affecting the outfitter's bottom line. I hate to see legislation put into place to protect an industry that may need to evolve. If an outfitter can't make enough to survive then maybe there are to many outfitters.

 

[ithunter]

The only true constant is change…everything changes and we accept those changes at some level all the time…compounds bows over recurves…multi powered scopes over iron sights…range finders, ballistic calculators, 700 or 1,000 yard shots. We get our feather ruffled when “things” change that we feel go against our personal morals. If a guy wants to buy lats and longs for trophy animal good for him…he is probably doing something right because he has f ’you money and can drop it on something that some don’t feel like they would need. Me, I am content working my tail off for a good representation of the species. I am also a realist a successful mountain lion hunt will more than likely require special equipment (hounds) and there for an outfitter.

The role of the outfitter is often romanticized, but like anything there are good ones and bad ones. I don’t fully understand how this thread went from selling to location info to what outfitters do or don’t do for the hunting community. It would be my assumption that any Joe hunter may buy location info not just outfitters…maybe it’s an entrepreneurial local who finds a good bull while out hiking or whatever. As I typed that, ok yeah I found the rub… In all reality knowing where a game animal “is” (let’s be honest “was”), is only half the battle. Folks who routinely use a guide service are not all going to magically become DIY’ers overnight.

Hunting tends to be a lot like golf…a beautiful walk spoiled.

 

[BuzzH]

The only true constant is change…everything changes and we accept those changes at some level all the time…compounds bows over recurves…multi powered scopes over iron sights…range finders, ballistic calculators, 700 or 1,000 yard shots. We get our feather ruffled when “things” change that we feel go against our personal morals. If a guy wants to buy lats and longs for trophy animal good for him…he is probably doing something right because he has f ’you money and can drop it on something that some don’t feel like they would need..

Something to think about, with this bill and the comments you made above.

Setting aside the ethical argument, which most either believe one way or another...

What about how ALL those things you listed as "constant change" impact the resource? How about how they impact tag allocations? how about how they impact season length?

The way it works, the more successful we become as a result of all the technology and "constant change" you talked about...are we all willing to give up tags? Time in the field? Fewer mature animals? Is that technology impacting bull to cow ratio's, buck to doe ratio's, age class structures.

Is it worth giving up time in the field, more years between tags, and less quality animals as well as impacting herds to allow unfettered technology advances?

I say no, its not worth it. I think getting in front of these types of issues and making adjustments to laws and regulations will maintain season lengths, tag numbers, and also benefit wildlife.

I would rather put limits on technology, limits on crap like selling scouting packages, etc. etc. than sacrifice time in the field, families being able to hunt every year, and for the sake of the resource.

To each their own, but every time technology advances, and we become more efficient, something has to give...and that's over-all opportunity, every single time.

I'm in favor of the bill and will be supporting it.

 

[WapitiBob]

Still refuses to address why he isn't doing this in Utah?

Still refuses to disclose how much he has made doing this?

Not addressing how much he declared on his taxes from this?

Watching the conversation over there. Interesting to say the least.

Guy doesn't seem to have much respect for rules and laws that inconvenience him.

None of your business what he makes or paid in taxes.

 

[Horsenhike]

None of your business what he makes or paid in taxes.

Nah, but they sure are interesting questions.

 

[BuzzH]

None of your business what he makes or paid in taxes.

That is 100% true.

However, Brian has hurt himself and a lot of other NR hunters with his attitude.

He doesn't get much of a say with the Legislature, the Residents that live here absolutely do.

What do you suppose many residents are going to do when its time to support or not support this bill, based strictly on his lack of giving a chit about Wyoming's wildlife, ethics, etc.?

No need to answer that, I think anyone with a clue has a pretty good idea.

The discussion at the interim TRW meeting, that myself and other resident hunters attended, 100% of those that gave testimony were in favor of the bill. No one spoke against it. The bill is going to be introduced, and we can clean it up between now and then if there's things needed to tighten it up.

I think if attitudes like his are going to continue to be those that get this kind of attention, I would expect less and less NR opportunities. Many Resident hunters are already on the fence regarding NR license allocations, how we deal with leftovers, etc. Resident hunters want more opportunity, not less, and when it comes down to the decision between limiting NR or R opportunity, I can tell you who's opportunities are going to dry up first.

So, while I agree with you that tax returns and how much money he made off Wyoming's wildlife resources isn't any of my business...there's more than one way to get a desired result.

 

[fackelberry]

Im with Buzz when he put it in perspective. We as hunters are always finding ways to make it easier to find and kill these animals. But there is only so much these animals can do to outsmart us, their technology doesn't evolve like ours. And once they can't outsmart us anymore then you will see things happen as Buzz explained above. Everyone has noticed in the last 10 years the amount of hunters in the backcountry that never used to be there. We all hate to see that kind of pressure and it frustrates the seasoned hunter. If the selling of GPS spots doesn't bother you, just give it a few years and see how many more people will be in the backcountry! Just one more way people are buying trophys instead of actually having to earn it themselves. Do you think if we had this technology back in the 50s-70s when big giant bucks were killed there would be much for genes passed on or an abundance of big bucks around? Don't we all in some form or another want to pass on the hunting spirit and tradition to future generations to enjoy? I don't think our fathers or grandfathers would approve of alot of things we do today just to shoot a world class animal!

 

[Milo]

Seems more than a tad bit hypocritical of Eastman's-- who prides itself on the quality of information it sells. Certainly it's not GPS coordinates, but its a sellout just the same. Guess it's ok to sell your soul for a buck, just don't let the other guy sell his.

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[ithunter]

I'm in favor of the bill...conservation, fair chase and opportunity. Hunting to me is a balancing act.

I also agree that there are more folks in the back country now then there were 10 years ago and to this guy, that is an entirely different can of worms. Sure you can "blame" that on tech..but there were GPS handhelds and maps way back when. What wasn't as prevalent was media...Al Gore and his internet changed the face of hunting. Now every billy goat and box troll has a platform to banter and sing praises on. With that came the rise of social media...now everyone has a personal grocery store brag board just for them. An influx of new hunting shows focused on DIY methods and back country hunting also pushed more people deeper. At the end of the day the Non Resident hunters hands are tied...they are bound to what the state and it's citizens have decided to do and those rules become the ethical manner in which they can pursue their chosen quarry. Keeping traditions and value alive is a great thing