WY Proposed Grizzly season

CrimsonArrow

Very Active Member
Feb 21, 2011
854
362
Minnesota
I'm sorry you feel the hundreds of thousands of dollars raised by these tags and used for moose habitat projects and research has been a waste of time and will have absolutely no immediate nor future impacts on the Wyoming's moose populations or management decisions. You should take up your argument with a WG&F moose biologist. While you're at it, since you also mentioned sheep tags, you should call the Wild Sheep Foundation and express your opinion to them. They raise a bunch of $ from the sale of sheep tags. They also spend dollars on research, habitat, etc. plus they spend big bucks to purchase domestic sheep grazing allotments and then retire them in an effort to reduce disease transmittal to the wild sheep thus raising future wild sheep populations.

By the way the State of Minnesota refused to allow for any governor's type moose licenses for just the same argument you have. Instead they eventually closed the moose hunting season statewide due to declining moose numbers. How did that one work out?
No amount of money would have prevented the closure of our moose season. Unless that money was spent to hire someone to murder the federal judge who decided the Great Lakes states weren't qualified to manage our own wolf population.
 

WY ME

Very Active Member
Feb 4, 2014
549
47
Wyoming
No amount of money would have prevented the closure of our moose season. Unless that money was spent to hire someone to murder the federal judge who decided the Great Lakes states weren't qualified to manage our own wolf population.
I can't agree with you more (except the murdering part) on the wolf issue. But nowadays we need to fight the antis in the courts in order to do common sense things such as managing the wolves. In order to win these cases the DNRs and G&Fs need to present facts that overwhelmingly support their arguments. In Wyoming these facts come from the WG&F and University of Wyoming research projects supported in part by grants provided by the revenue generated from of the Gov. tag sales.

Some of these studies prove theories, others may disprove theories, but without them we have no ammunition in the courts. I don't know the total dollar amount the tags have provided over the years for the various projects but I do know it's support that would have never been available if not for the "fat wallet" hunters that some on this forum so despise.

Emotional arguments like those that JM77 uses doesn't get us anywhere. Scientifically, the loss of 5 male moose shot by gov. tag holders is an insignificant number in relation to Wyoming's overall moose population. There's more moose killed by cars on the 6 mile stretch of the Teton Village road every winter, many of which are cows.
 

JM77

Member
Apr 25, 2016
104
33
Casper, Wyoming
I can't agree with you more (except the murdering part) on the wolf issue. But nowadays we need to fight the antis in the courts in order to do common sense things such as managing the wolves. In order to win these cases the DNRs and G&Fs need to present facts that overwhelmingly support their arguments. In Wyoming these facts come from the WG&F and University of Wyoming research projects supported in part by grants provided by the revenue generated from of the Gov. tag sales.

Some of these studies prove theories, others may disprove theories, but without them we have no ammunition in the courts. I don't know the total dollar amount the tags have provided over the years for the various projects but I do know it's support that would have never been available if not for the "fat wallet" hunters that some on this forum so despise.

Emotional arguments like those that JM77 uses doesn't get us anywhere. Scientifically, the loss of 5 male moose shot by gov. tag holders is an insignificant number in relation to Wyoming's overall moose population. There's more moose killed by cars on the 6 mile stretch of the Teton Village road every winter, many of which are cows.
Is the loss of over 1100 moose tags an emotional argument to you WY ME? I'm sorry, but it is just plain fact. The more you point out how many different kind of moose mortalities there are, the more you make my case. Once again, fund our wildlife managers and let them do their job, it is no more plain and simple than that.

I have no doubt your mind will never change on this. I also have no doubt hunting is not a heritage to you. If it was, you would place more stock in the North American Model, which has shown through history, it is the average hunter/conservationist who is the keeper of our wildlife. The more we stray towards "pay to play" hunting, the more we lose sight of what got us here in the first place. It sure wasn't the "fat cats" and their posses. Look at it however you want WY ME, but when we start putting a price on wildlife, there is a "smell" and it just keeps getting worse and worse until you can't get rid of it.
 
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bowrunner

Active Member
Oct 13, 2015
299
9
Illinois
Is the loss of over 1100 moose tags an emotional argument to you WY ME? I'm sorry, but it is just plain fact. The more you point out how many different kind of moose mortalities there are, the more you make my case. Once again, fund our wildlife managers and let them do their job, it is no more plain and simple than that.

I have no doubt your mind will never change on this. I also have no doubt hunting is not a heritage to you. If it was, you would place more stock in the North American Model, which has shown through history, it is the average hunter/conservationist who is the keeper of our wildlife. The more we stray towards "pay to play" hunting, the more we lose sight of what got us here in the first place. It sure wasn't the "fat cats" and their posses. Look at it however you want WY ME, but when we start putting a price on wildlife, there is a "smell" and it just keeps getting worse and worse until you can't get rid of it.
I really don't want to get involved in this fight, because its getting out of control, but I want to make a point. If you are in favor of getting rid of governors tags, but are arguing that the wildlife managers need to be better funded, where does the money come from? Are you willing to increase tag prices even more? Are you wiling to raise your local sales tax more? Are you willing to pay higher property taxes? Most will say no, as would I. A lot can also say they money that is available for allocation needs to be pushed higher in that department and less in others, but those other groups feel the same way about their departments.

Im not a proponent to the "pay to play" direction that some hunting is going, but at the same time those people who have either inherited or self made that wealth to give them the opportunity to more hunting, have gained that ability through the American way. (some have not) but most have.

Sorry man, im with the WY ME guy on this.
 

WY ME

Very Active Member
Feb 4, 2014
549
47
Wyoming
Is the loss of over 1100 moose tags an emotional argument to you WY ME? I'm sorry, but it is just plain fact. The more you point out how many different kind of moose mortalities there are, the more you make my case. Once again, fund our wildlife managers and let them do their job, it is no more plain and simple than that.

I have no doubt your mind will never change on this. I also have no doubt hunting is not a heritage to you. If it was, you would place more stock in the North American Model, which has shown through history, it is the average hunter/conservationist who is the keeper of our wildlife. The more we stray towards "pay to play" hunting, the more we lose sight of what got us here in the first place. It sure wasn't the "fat cats" and their posses. Look at it however you want WY ME, but when we start putting a price on wildlife, there is a "smell" and it just keeps getting worse and worse until you can't get rid of it.
You're getting way too emotional and I'm done with this. Like I said a few days ago we'll just have to agree to disagree. But one last thing... DON'T ATTACK MY HERITAGE OR CONVICTION TO HUNTING. YOU DON'T KNOW ME OR MY FAMILY HISTORY!...nuff said.
 

JM77

Member
Apr 25, 2016
104
33
Casper, Wyoming
I really don't want to get involved in this fight, because its getting out of control, but I want to make a point. If you are in favor of getting rid of governors tags, but are arguing that the wildlife managers need to be better funded, where does the money come from? Are you willing to increase tag prices even more? Are you wiling to raise your local sales tax more? Are you willing to pay higher property taxes? Most will say no, as would I. A lot can also say they money that is available for allocation needs to be pushed higher in that department and less in others, but those other groups feel the same way about their departments.

Im not a proponent to the "pay to play" direction that some hunting is going, but at the same time those people who have either inherited or self made that wealth to give them the opportunity to more hunting, have gained that ability through the American way. (some have not) but most have.

Sorry man, im with the WY ME guy on this.
Not responding is the way to stay out of this bowrunner. If you read what I wrote you will have some answers. To your question, yes I am willing to pay more. For $178 a resident, like myself, can hunt a buck antelope, buck mule deer, buck whitetail and bull elk. As a resident I am more than willing to pay much more. Why? Because selling off our wildlife to support management is the absolute worst model there is. No doubt, marketing wildlife for maximum profit will accomplish two things: the rich hunt first and opportunity for all hunters decreases exponentially.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
I guess maybe the thing to do is approach this at the 10K foot view and start at the start regarding Governors tags.

First of all, I think its important that transparency must be paramount to what's going on and facts need to presented on both sides of the argument. Also, with dwindling resources, in particular for sheep, moose, goat, mule deer, etc. things like Governors tags not only need to be revisited from time to time, but SHOULD be. We don't live in a vacuum, things change over time.

The pro-argument that we all hear is the money raised goes to fund additional projects. Totally agree, there is benefit to that no doubt. Providing though, that agreements made in regard to how the money is spent are kept, by all involved. The other thing the public is entitled to know, is how is that money working for things that are benefiting wildlife and what are the results? Is throwing money at these projects resulting in more opportunity for hunters, better understanding of problems, improving access for hunters, and all the other things that Sportsmen have paid for since day one.

Here are some of the potential pit-falls that are, indeed happening with Governors, Commission and various other set asides:

1. They are most assuredly, no question at all, in conflict with the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. The NAM is recognized around the world as the best model under which to manage wildlife. Frankly, we are the envy of the world in that regard. One of the Sisters of that model is that the citizens of each state have equal access to that wildlife. When we allow one group of hunters to have more, better, or improved access to that wildlife at the expense of others, that is a dereliction of the NAM.

2. In several instances, these tags are having to be managed around because of the impact they have to the wildlife. The average hunting public is losing opportunities because of them, not only through the direct loss of tags going to the highest bidder, but also through management decisions. Case in point is one of the best sheep units in Wyoming. There is more opportunity in that unit for sheep tags to be increased from the current quota of 8 to perhaps 10-12 tags. The problem is, if the quota is raised to 10, there will be not 2 more sheep hunters hunting there, but very likely 9 more. The 5 governors tags, plus the raffle ram and also the tri-fecta raffle winner. Another example is the Snowy Range moose area. I had to get pretty aggressive at a local meeting here when the guys that outfit unit 38 made a proposal to reduce the current quota on bull tags issued through the draw. The reason was not biological, but the fact that their Governors tag holders weren't killing as big of bulls. I was able to address that and slam the brakes on that crap. But again, the influence of Governors tags was about to impact how that resource was allocated and managed. Bad deal. Another example is the elk units around Cody, where DIY NR and R opportunity through the draw has gigantically reduced the number of tags issued through the draw. To the point that in some of those areas, there are more commission/governors tag holders hunting there than sportsmen that are issued tags through the draw. It also creates a huge decline in hunt quality, when the average guy is forced to compete with these guys that pay big money for a tag and a guided hunt. Another example of the impacts, was just last week when I attended the GF meeting in Baggs. The area biologist made a recommendation to open a late mule deer season with 25 available tags to allow additional opportunity in unit 82. The season was strongly opposed and not because of the 25 tags that would be issued through the draw. That hunt was stopped via a petition several years ago, because 17-20 additional deer were being killed by commission and governors tag holders. There is no appetite from the locals to even consider that hunt until something is done about the impacts of the G/C tags.

3. The influence of the money that these tags set is obvious and its been presented here in this thread. It sets a bad precedence that even the wildlife NGO's fall into...that is the monetary value. Nobody is questioning the sincerity and good work that all these NGO's do, they do phenomenal work and mountains of good for wildlife, no debate. But, the question that needs to be asked, is the money involved clouding the vision of who this wildlife is held in trust for, and who got the wildlife to the point it is now? Is the North American Model important...or is it just a punch-line when money is involved? I think those are fair questions to ask and again we're straying down the path of commercialization of wildlife and taking opportunity away from the Sportsmen of average means.

4. One of the biggest threats facing hunting and conservation in general is the lack of recruitment into the sport. Are these set aside tags disenfranchising youth? Its pretty sad when I look at my 2 nephews, or a room full of kids taking hunters safety, and realize that they likely will never get a chance to hunt moose or sheep. I've made it perfectly clear to my nephews, that if they want to hunt sheep, moose, or the best elk, deer, etc. they best get an education and find a job that pays obscene amounts of money. Trying to get there the way I have, applying for 38 years and drawing ONE sheep tag are over. They're staring the stark reality in the face that they never will draw...they're DECADES behind in the point game. The question is, would we rather see over the next 20 years, 100 Sportsmen of average means draw those moose and sheep tags...our kids, our neighbors, our friends...or do we continue to grant special privileges to the guys with the fat wallets?

Lets not forget, that this is not an NGO's wildlife, its not the Governors, its not the WCF's, its not the Commission's...its held in trust for the Citizens of Wyoming...period.

Not only should it come as no shock to anyone, that when you develop your business model around an asset that is held in trust for ALL citizens of the State, it should be expected that the Citizens are going to ask hard questions about THEIR ASSETS and how they are allocated.

If the Citizens get a belly full of their assets being given away to the highest bidder and they demand change, that's not only appropriate, but their right to do so.

...carry on.
 
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bowrunner

Active Member
Oct 13, 2015
299
9
Illinois
BuzzH - I didn't want to reply with a quote because it was a long post. Well written post. I can easily see both sides of the argument.
 

Alabama

Veteran member
Feb 18, 2013
1,395
191
Sweet Home Alabama
Buzz: That is one of the most well thought out posts I've read here. I had no idea governors tags were hitting certain areas so hard. I don't always agree with you but I can say I respect your position on most issues. Thanks for staying at the forefront of these issues and being a voice at those meetings for all of us.
 

Billybob

New Member
Feb 12, 2018
7
0
Buzz: That is one of the most well thought out posts I've read here. I had no idea governors tags were hitting certain areas so hard. I don't always agree with you but I can say I respect your position on most issues. Thanks for staying at the forefront of these issues and being a voice at those meetings for all of us.
Lots of interesting points on here. Lots of food for thought for me. I can't speak out against the governors tags without being pretty hypocritical. My family has benefited from one of the auctions a couple of years ago, maybe a little indirectly, but still. Now I see the other side of that coin, didn't ever think about that side much.

I did want to comment on the price also. I don't think in the grizzly case the high price tag was completely about supply and demand, or even raising money. If we screw this up, we are are in deep doodoo with the bears. There needs to be some management for the various reasons that have been mentioned, but it is an extremely sensitive hunt. I thought that I heard that even the tribes were against this as well as countless anti-hunters, etc. I don't really understand their argument, it seems like every time hunting and fishing has been used for management, the population seems to thrive. Taking out a few boars a year will probably benefit the population as much as anything. The high price does probably limit the non-resident pool to the deep pocket people, but that also helps to limit it to people who would likely pay a guide. I am not trying to be offensive to anyone with this next part, but with a guide I think you are less likely to shoot a sow. Then maybe they could actually fill the 12 tags instead of the season ending with 2 sows or however that works. Also one sow with cubs gets shot and the whole thing could come down. I am not exactly sure where the boundaries of the management areas are, but there are plenty of bears on National Forest, not wilderness areas that wouldn't require a guide for a non-resident. I didn't see this stuff mentioned, maybe for good reason. I actually thought the resident price could have been higher. There are probably a lot of people who have a bear in mind and will never draw the tag.