Transfer of Public Lands
- Thread starter npaden
- Start date
It looks that way but it is not. It was a set aside of the first prison term, after it was served, and the substitution of longer prison term for the same crime. The law they were first found guilty under, has a 5 year manditory min. term. The first judge, correctly I believe, said 5 years did not fit the crime, 8th amendment invoked as I recall. Feds waited a bit and got a new Fed judge to say the lighter prison term was illegal and they had to serve the statutory 5 year min. Still BS, but technically not double jeopardy as they were not charged again, only the prison term was litigated.
Iron Mike
Active Member
Unfortunately Tim is right. But the law sucks in the Hammond case. Please take a look at the video that Tim McCoy linked to of Congressman Greg Walden speaking on the House floor on this subject. Watch till the end. The Hammonds were good folks.
Being in the next town from Burns and where the lifeflight helo came to we have been pretty close to this story. The Bundy's may have started out with a good cause but it seemed to get out of hand and off subject pretty quick. Tearing down fences that the bordering rancher immediately started putting back up, with his own money I might add, along with the other things that helped this situation spiral out of control. By the way there is no love lost between that rancher and the Feds. You could not find a more conservative town in Oregon then Burns. The main way of life there is ranching and they do not like Fed/BLM intervention there (nor do I). So when the majority of the town wanted the Bundy's gone it speaks volumes to what was happening. Just my opinion.
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roknHS
Member
I haven't followed the Bundy's or the wildlife refuge circus with anything other than curiosity. I do know government bureaucracies have been known to bully private citizens to get what they want......the end justifies the means argument. BLM, Forest Service, EPA, IRS and various others are documented abusers of their positions and posts. Sulfur Creek Ranch is a private holding in the Idaho Frank Church Wilderness that has been in existence long before the area was ever a designated wilderness. The harassment they have had to endure from the U.S. Forest Service is well documented. The USFS wants to make it so onerous to keep the property private that the owners finally give up and sell to the government. The circumstances are similiar to the wildlife refuge dispute in Oregon.
How does a private individual fight the dictatorial actions of a government agency? The agency can evade, out maneauver, out spend and out last all but the most wealthy individuals and corporations. I can see why a public display of civil disobedience would be used to bring national attention to a problem many see as government bureaucracy out of control. I suppose those private citizens involved should be prepared to be arrested and have their day in court. I don't think any of the actions I saw filmed at the Oregon refuge should have required the death of a protester.
The FBI road block film shows the armed ambush of a group of protesters trying to leave the area. The man killed was shot in the head and body before his intent could be determined. If indeed a gun shot was required to subdue this person, he could have been shot in a leg or a shoulder just as easily. It is unclear if he was trying to draw a weapon to threaten law enforcement or just as possibly to hand it over and surrender. He was not given the chance to communicate his intent before he was killed. He was surrounded by FBI in body armor, armed with assault rifles, shot guns and hand guns. The killing looked more like an execution than an armed confrontation. The overwhelming odds the man faced suggest his only option was surrender. Surrender or not, there was no reason other than execution to shoot him in the head.
I will leave the debate of the private property, government property, taxes, wild west justice and government bureaucracies run amock to you philosophers and political types. I will say this episode of FBI operations reminds me of the Branch Dividean (or whatever they were called) massacre in Texas and the Ruby Ridge travesty in Idaho. Clearly over reactions to a perceived threat that history will tell us never really existed and should have been handled by local officials rather than FBI idiots. If we ignore history, we tend to repeat it...........................
Don't be so hard on MM........he has more insight than you give him credit for.
How does a private individual fight the dictatorial actions of a government agency? The agency can evade, out maneauver, out spend and out last all but the most wealthy individuals and corporations. I can see why a public display of civil disobedience would be used to bring national attention to a problem many see as government bureaucracy out of control. I suppose those private citizens involved should be prepared to be arrested and have their day in court. I don't think any of the actions I saw filmed at the Oregon refuge should have required the death of a protester.
The FBI road block film shows the armed ambush of a group of protesters trying to leave the area. The man killed was shot in the head and body before his intent could be determined. If indeed a gun shot was required to subdue this person, he could have been shot in a leg or a shoulder just as easily. It is unclear if he was trying to draw a weapon to threaten law enforcement or just as possibly to hand it over and surrender. He was not given the chance to communicate his intent before he was killed. He was surrounded by FBI in body armor, armed with assault rifles, shot guns and hand guns. The killing looked more like an execution than an armed confrontation. The overwhelming odds the man faced suggest his only option was surrender. Surrender or not, there was no reason other than execution to shoot him in the head.
I will leave the debate of the private property, government property, taxes, wild west justice and government bureaucracies run amock to you philosophers and political types. I will say this episode of FBI operations reminds me of the Branch Dividean (or whatever they were called) massacre in Texas and the Ruby Ridge travesty in Idaho. Clearly over reactions to a perceived threat that history will tell us never really existed and should have been handled by local officials rather than FBI idiots. If we ignore history, we tend to repeat it...........................
Don't be so hard on MM........he has more insight than you give him credit for.
Colorado Cowboy
Super Moderator
The Bundy's ought to get their butts back to Nevada. They don't belong in Oregon (or anywhere else for that matter) stirring up trouble. IMHO the BLM should take them to court and get a judgment against them for the grazing fees they refuse to pay and start seizing & selling their cows to settle it. The land they lease for grazing belongs to everyone (as citizens) and has to be managed in a proper manner. No rules would allow untold damage to the resource. I saw firsthand the damage & deteriation that happened to the Angeles National Forest when the crowded city folks of Los Angeles and suburbs started "playing" there.
Here is the video. Tragic. The PU looked like it about ran over one of the officers when it careened off the road into the snow. But had the guy just stood still, he'd likely be alive. This is the guy who told all he would die before going to jail. You have your hands held out, cops have a gun on you, you reach inside your jacket, you get your wish...sad. Very close to sucide by cop based on his statement and actions. The word is an Oregon State Police officer was the shooter.
http://www.wweek.com/2016/01/28/here-is-the-fbi-video-of-lavoy-finicums-death/
http://www.wweek.com/2016/01/28/here-is-the-fbi-video-of-lavoy-finicums-death/
highplainsdrifter
Very Active Member
I have some sympathy for the Hammonds. It does not seem right that they should have to go back to prison after being released. I have no opinion on whether they should have been sentenced to prison in the first place. A jury decided that, and they had access to more of the facts than I do.
I have ZERO sympathy for the Bundys and their followers. I wish the FBI had moved in sooner and more decisively. We can't let a bunch of armed thugs occupy a refuge and hijack a situation to promote their own minority point of view.
As for the shooting...I am not going to fault law enforcement. In the video, it is clear Levoy was reaching for something (it turned out to be a gun). How long should an officer be expected to hold his fire...until he sees a gun...until the gun is pointed at him...until he is sure the gun is loaded? Should the officer have let Levoy take the first shot to prove he had deadly intent? IMHO officers don't get paid enough to take that kind of risk. Don't make Levoy out to be a hero. He is anything but.
Now we need to move forward and seek monetary compensation from the arrested occupiers (and from Levoy's estate).
I have ZERO sympathy for the Bundys and their followers. I wish the FBI had moved in sooner and more decisively. We can't let a bunch of armed thugs occupy a refuge and hijack a situation to promote their own minority point of view.
As for the shooting...I am not going to fault law enforcement. In the video, it is clear Levoy was reaching for something (it turned out to be a gun). How long should an officer be expected to hold his fire...until he sees a gun...until the gun is pointed at him...until he is sure the gun is loaded? Should the officer have let Levoy take the first shot to prove he had deadly intent? IMHO officers don't get paid enough to take that kind of risk. Don't make Levoy out to be a hero. He is anything but.
Now we need to move forward and seek monetary compensation from the arrested occupiers (and from Levoy's estate).
Amen to that highplains, its sad he had to be shot but he was kinda asking for it, I have no sympathy for that, for his family I do have sympathy for. bundys escalated all of this. as far as I see it, they should be held responsible for his death. any time anyone leads police on a high speed chase, almost running over an officer and then reaching into jacket to pull a gun out that man or woman should be shot right on the spot. its sad, very, very sad that it has come to this, that something that was controllable has reached such realms of unnecessariness. as was said before, the moment they took over that building it should've been ended right then and there. we are living in a very uncertain world here.
highplainsdrifter
Very Active Member
At the risk of being irreverent, I'd like to take the call for compensation a step further.
The Bundys owe more than a million dollars in grazing fees. Finnicum and the other occupiers probably caused a lot of damage to the refuge. In addition to damage, their occupation resulted in a huge cost to law enforcement.
Perhaps federal authorities should seize their ranches for compensation. They could be turned into a public lands. Maybe they could be called the Levoy Finnicum/Ammon Bundy National Wildlife Refuge
The Bundys owe more than a million dollars in grazing fees. Finnicum and the other occupiers probably caused a lot of damage to the refuge. In addition to damage, their occupation resulted in a huge cost to law enforcement.
Perhaps federal authorities should seize their ranches for compensation. They could be turned into a public lands. Maybe they could be called the Levoy Finnicum/Ammon Bundy National Wildlife Refuge
Musket Man
Veteran member
Watch the video closer. The officer that almost got ran over jumped out in front of the truck and shot through the windshield. When it looks like he is reaching in his coat its because he is shot. He was shot again right before his hands go down. He is not going for a gun and he turns away from the officers. Then they fill the truck full of lead. Its murder. The FBI wants everyone to believe he was going for a gun but thats not what happened.
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all I can say is, don't be doing what you shouldn't be doing and it wouldn't have happened. just like all these race shooting cases going around, if those fellas would've been doing right they never would've been shot. high speed chase put not only officers in danger but all the public near by. and im sorry mm but I think if I were shot in the stomach I wouldn't reach for that spot with out falling backwards or without hunching over. I think the man was under a lot of stress, and respectfully so, he said ill die before I go to jail.... with all of the witnesses there if something was faulty on law enforcement end it will come out. not all cops are bad cops, and if there was wrong done it will come out.
I've watched it several times, I honestly can't tell if anyone was shooting till the shot that put him down. What I can see is what a cop on the scene would have to react to as a reach inside a coat. The cops have to react or risk being shot. I would have expected the shooting to start with the first reach to the coat, so I am sure some of his last movement was reacting to being shot and some was trying to reach his gun. If he just stays in his truck and follows instructuons, he lives. Like ivorytip said, if it was a bad shoot, the truth will come out. I can't say you are wrong MM, there is a chance you could be right, but there are a number of things that suggest this guy pushed it to a shooting. There were multiple agencies involved, so a cover up is near impossible. I'm not a conspiracy theory anti-govt adherent, nor do I have any particular love for our overly powerful govt. agencies. But I do know what happens when you twist the tail of a tiger, in an armed emotionally charged situation, which he clearly did more than once, again my opinion. Tragic all the way around.
What is for sure, is if he had not ran away from the first stop and cooperated like the guys in the jeep did, he would be alive, but probably in jail. He knew that, and by his actions was proving to be a man of his word, he did say he would die before going to jail, I watched him say it. I have seen a number of folks advance the murder theory, most neglect to refer to his statements and the fact all who cooperated were safe, including several that were let go without arrest.
shootbrownelk
Veteran member
The Hammonds were convicted of wildlife crimes in the past, as well as threatening BLM officials with weapons and Public Land Hunter harassment. They aren't the squeaky clean, eaking out a living, downtrodden ranchers they portray themselves as. And as far as the Bundys go, they are thieves stealing from the American taxpayers, to the tune of a Million dollars + in 20 yrs. of unpaid grazing fees.
I heard a term on another forum that describes them to a T...."Farm Ninjas".
crzy_cntryby
Active Member
- Dec 9, 2014
- 269
- 0
I didn't say they are innocent. I just have a problem with the idea of fire to cover it up.
Musket Man
Veteran member
It sure didnt take long for me to remember why I dont follow this thread. Posting and trying to explain what is really happening is a waste of time and effort.
highplainsdrifter
Very Active Member
ceby7
Active Member
Colorado Cowboy
Super Moderator
MM ...I really don't think anyone here really knows what happened (I think you are referring to the shooting), because we wearn't there. In time the real story we surface. I have not said anything about this because of that. But the facts of the Bundy story in Nevada are out there.
Take care my friend..........
Bitterroot Bulls
Veteran member
Ill give it a whirl.
What really happened:
A group with serious thinking errors and a firmly ingrained misunderstanding of history and the US Constitution used a mediocre opportunity to feign support for supposedly "oppressed" ranchers to further their own anti-public land agenda. In doing so they intimidated an entire community, and threatened any official that disagreed. After an extended period of negotiation where officials offered numerous and various ways to get out of the debacle, a tactically sound plan was implemented to complete legal arrests of the members. During this arrest, every member of the insurrectionist cult that complied with commands was taken into custody, charged in a court of law and given representation. The one member that decided to go for an old-fashioned quickdraw showdown at a barricade unfortunately wasn't able to join his compadres in the judicial system. Now, a few holdouts remain holding themselves hostage with no leverage.
Does that about do it?
Please speak out boldly and often against land transfer and protect the treasure that is our public lands of the West.