Special Interest group stealing resident tags

ColoradoV

Very Active Member
Oct 4, 2011
820
941
Cj not sure if you want us to read your rant 2x or what but once with that is enough. My opinion is the same or trying to do this change outside the BGSS process, and outside any public opinion/involvement process is flat wrong!

For the rest of you here are all the email addresses I sent my letter to it is worth it on this one to send a letter if you can. You just cut and paste this list into email and to send you letter to the commission.

"[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]" ; "[email protected]"


Or here they are in a different format

For folks that are concerned about the issue, let the commission member know your feelings about it!

[email protected]

Gaspar Perricone [email protected]

William Kane [email protected]

Chris Castilian [email protected]

Robert Bray [email protected]

Jeanne Horne [email protected]

James Pribyl [email protected]

James Vigil [email protected]

Dean Wingfield [email protected]

Michelle Zimmerman [email protected]

Dale Pizel dale.pizel@state,co.us

Alexander Zipp [email protected]

Mike King [email protected]


Also I would send one to the denver post writer Jason Blevins as they are saying there is enough interest for the Denver Post to send a reporter to the Meeting on sept 11 in Glenwood Springs.

[email protected]

Send in a letter if you have the time.
 

ColoradoV

Very Active Member
Oct 4, 2011
820
941
Also another cut and paste - here is what the CBA has to say.. Is there anyone supporting this idea?? Well other than CJ and Robert Bray?



The CBA will have representation at this meeting. This meeting will take place at the address and dates below. You may participate and contact them via the web site: http://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/CommissionMembers.aspx

Meeting Location:
Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission
Subcommittee on Big Game License Allocation

5:00 – 6:00 PM, Thursday, September 11, 2014

Ramada Inn

124 W. 6th Street

Glenwood Springs, CO 81601

Letter Sent to Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission by the CBA BOD:
September 7, 2014

Chairman Bill Kane

Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission

6060 Broadway

Denver, CO

Re: In Regards to Big Game License Allocations and the BGSS

Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commissioners:

The Colorado Bowhunters Association would like to express their concern regarding the decision to reassess the allocation of big game licenses between resident and nonresident hunters . The Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission is responsible for making policies and decisions that protect the wildlife of this great State, and protect the interests of resident hunters. At the August Parks and Wildlife Commission meeting, a subcommittee was formed to evaluate the reallocation percentages of highly desirable elk and deer tags from residents of Colorado to nonresidents. The CBA believes that this process is not justified, and that Colorado is already more than fair to nonresident hunters compared to other western states.

In addition, the Parks and Wildlife Commission recently approved a 5% increase in landowner vouchers which will become effective in 2015. Some of that reallocation will be coming from what is now the resident draw. Until sportsmen and other interested parties in Colorado have an opportunity to see the effects of that change, other compounding changes are unwise.

We ask that the Parks and Wildlife Commission Public terminate any consideration of changing license allocation at this time. If the Parks and Wildlife Commission does choose to proceed in this review, a full public involvement in this process is vital and that a working group of all affected parties should be convened to consider this issue. The development of a subcommittee to develop allocation options without complete constituent representation could be viewed as an attempt to circumvent the outcome of the last Big Game License Allocation Work Group process. In the event of a public involvement process, the CBA would like to participate.

The Parks and Wildlife Commission is in a unique position in its responsibility to guide policy for wildlife management and conservation. There is no biological or wildlife management goal to be reached by increasing nonresident percentages. Current statistics show that in most years the current 35% allocated to nonresidents is not fully utilized. According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the majority of nonresident hunters are satisfied with the current availability of licenses to nonresidents that hunt in Colorado. Colorado already has the highest percentages of licenses available to non-residents of any western state. Nonresidents can hunt elk every year if they choose with an over the counter license. Left over tags are available but underutilized by nonresidents. We recommend that the reallocation of licenses to nonresidents be removed from consideration because it is an unwarranted change.

Protecting our resident hunters should be a priority and not secondary to nonresident interests. The current percentages for allocation of licenses to nonresidents are under utilized on a yearly basis. An increase is not needed. For these reasons, we recommend the proposal for reallocation of nonresident licenses be removed from consideration and the current license allocation percentages be kept at the status quo.

Respectfully,

Mike Yeary

Chairman

Colorado Bowhunters Association
 

Hilltop

Veteran member
Feb 25, 2014
3,847
2,230
Eastern Nebraska
I wonder if CJ realizes he is hurting his business taking this particular stance on this type of forum? There are Eastman's members who utilize outfitters occasionally and picking this fight here isn't winning him any customers.
 

packmule

Veteran member
Jun 21, 2011
2,433
0
TX
I don't see a problem sticking with the status quo on tag allocations. I'd be more inclined to go along with landowners getting an increase over the NRs getting an increase.

I do think they shoot look into the root cause of the underutilization of leftover tags though.
 

In God We Trust

Very Active Member
Mar 10, 2011
805
0
Colorado
"Also I disagree about residents and cost of the license but if most residents were presented with a 80 - 20 hard cap in every single draw unit every hunter I know would have no problem paying a bit more and with the added hunting license revenue will work. The residents will not pay more is a scare tactic used by outfitters and landowners and is not true. If it gets to high for a resident they can opt out but plenty will opt in..."
Well said Colorado V, all resident hunters want is a promise that an 80/20 split is going into effect in every unit and we will gladly pay more for resident tags. Hell if they would do the 80/20 split and ban the sale of any hunting tag issued by the state of Colorado I would donate money to the DOW if they asked. All I am looking for is an agency that is looking out for the hunter. I deplore these schemes to funnel more funds and tags to land owners and outfitters.
 

ColoradoV

Very Active Member
Oct 4, 2011
820
941
I do not respect is the way that Bray or Chris Journey of CJ outfitters and the rest are attempting to move this through with no BGSS input. It is under the table and dirty or corrupt as it gets.

Yes both are not doing any favors to resident hunters.

Please send in your comments by tomorrow - thx.
 
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coloradoshedhead

Active Member
Jul 9, 2014
157
25
Colorado
"Also I disagree about residents and cost of the license but if most residents were presented with a 80 - 20 hard cap in every single draw unit every hunter I know would have no problem paying a bit more and with the added hunting license revenue will work. The residents will not pay more is a scare tactic used by outfitters and landowners and is not true. If it gets to high for a resident they can opt out but plenty will opt in..."
Well said Colorado V, all resident hunters want is a promise that an 80/20 split is going into effect in every unit and we will gladly pay more for resident tags. Hell if they would do the 80/20 split and ban the sale of any hunting tag issued by the state of Colorado I would donate money to the DOW if they asked. All I am looking for is an agency that is looking out for the hunter. I deplore these schemes to funnel more funds and tags to land owners and outfitters.
I believe what CJ said about needing the nr hunters in the state for the revenue is absolutely true. I grew up in Craig, Co. and have seen first hand(having guided for an outfitter) the amount of revenue that out of state hunters bring to the economy. This is an economic necessity for revenue in most, if not all, small towns on the western slope which may be a hard thing to comprehend if you haven't been involved in it. This is a fact. With the loss of revenue to the dow in recent years including the loss of nr hunters, among other reasons, I don't believe the state can afford an 80-20 split for all the units in Colorado like previously stated above. This would be detrimental to the economy of these towns previously mentioned. Not to be demeaning, but that is pretty small minded thinking about a resource like wildlife that is supposed to be for "the public" whether resident or non-resident. I myself have had the opportunity of hunting private and public land for years and see benefits for both sides of the fence, but what it boils down to is the dow is pressed by having to make both sides happy and not to step on toes along the way. Its not an easy task by any stretch. It is not feasible for the dow to make up the difference of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars from nr's by just increasing resident tags by a few dollars and losing thousands or millions from getting rid of nr tags. Don't get me wrong I am a resident of Colorado and believe the resident should get a majority preference, but there is a fine line that needs to be met without either "side" getting caught up in entitlement issues, since this is a public resource. Maybe the native and non-native subject should be looked into or considered at least its a constructive idea, which is what we need to be more of, constructive and not detrimental as in pointing fingers. No problem ever gets solved by assuming without having a basis of facts to go by. Yes the preference point creep is a crummy fact, but I haven't seen or heard of a good way to deal with it other than abolishing it completely, which might cause an uproar and a ton of issues in itself. Maybe the point banking is a step in the right direction? The bottom line is ,we as Colorado residents, need the non-residents and the landowners bringing in the non-residents whether we like it or not its a necessity. Also, like stated on previous posts there are great outfitters/landowners who do great things for the whole state of Colorado and the economy and I appreciate that greatly. There are also some shady ones that do some not so great or terrible things, but we all need to get the facts before we start pointing fingers and making assumptions for a resource that is for everyone. Sorry about the rant but I have witnessed first hand the benefits of landowners and nr hunters and also wish that I could draw a premier tag more often, but I don't believe its possible with the fact that hunting has become so popular. So remember lets be constructive and have legitimate input and not belittle any input without having facts to back it up.
 

ColoradoV

Very Active Member
Oct 4, 2011
820
941
While I was not at the meeting here is what happened I pulled this from another forum as I with a 2 week old I could not make the meeting.

"The committee ultimately decided to take a recommendation back to the full Commission today to leave the allocation system as is, including no changes to the 80/20 allocation list, and look at options of creating an indexing system during the next year that would keep the number of 80/20 units similar to when the 80/20 system was initially created.

It sounds like Chris Journey (I presume CJ above) was the one and only speaker for the proposal and they are going to continue and push a agenda that about 95% of resident hunters are against. Sickening that corruption won out in this round.

The process will now involve public input and maybe just like Gov Ritter did when he removed the entire commission due to in Gov Ritters words "corruption" - maybe this needs to be looked into again. Amazing how some of the same names like Bray made it back on after the removal.

Some outfitters will stop at no lengths to line their pockets even further. Yea talking to you Chris Journey of CJ outfitters as you are responsible for taking tags from every resident hunter... How does that feel bud?

The ballot initiative is starting to gain real strength and at least one group is looking at getting a sponsor for a bill and will start to gain signatures for a state wide vote for a 80 - 20 split in both the first and second draw as this will most likely be the reaction to such a corrupt and inept commission.

Sad to see a few extremely wealthy outfitters and commission members attempting to do harm to so many resident hunters and I wonder if Chris Journey will every be back on here to defend his posts as I hope to have a public discussion with him. I doubt with the corruption involved he has the integrity to do so but I would like to hear what the former head of the Colorado Outfitters Ass has to say - well other than stooping so low as to drag God and veterans unwillingly onto his side.

The good thing is most resident hunters see this push for what it is or total BS driven by total corruption - Chris Journey and Robert Bray have no idea the fight they are going to be up against.
 

shootbrownelk

Veteran member
Apr 11, 2011
1,535
196
Wyoming
FYI - DOW staff tried to push through more 80/20 units without discussion or public involvement or explanation of it and the ramifications it would have, they called for a vote to approve it and that's when Commissioner Bray made a motion to put a freeze on any new 80/20 ​units until it was discussed further.

If any of you knew the history of the allocations both times when they were voted on - the allocations were supposed to be a hard cap (and commissioners who voted on them knew how they voted), and came out of regulations as a soft cap. After that process it was stated that this would cause the DOW to go broke - consequently they are. Politics and greed was the only reason for an allocation change in the first place by special interest groups. A cost analysis was requested as well as a business analysis and was determined that there would be a significant reduction in income.

The parks side of CPW at the time of the merger made the necessary cuts to remain in the black, DOW never made cuts until they had to and they were out of compliance on their reserve, they voted to lower the reserve amount and consequently now again they are out of the reserve.

For the record it should be noted that DOW revenues and expenditures stay with DOW, and Parks revenues and expenditures stay with Parks - there is no co mingling of funds or one draining the other, they stand on their own.


Friends, educate yourselves on some of the facts that have led to these discussions.

There is a great deal of politics in wildlife today and have made many issues complex and in reality divided sportsmen to where we are today. However in reality though it is a supply and demand issue and everything revolves around the supply, this 5 year season structure process should have made bigger strides and gains in obtaining those goals but election year politics has kept it suppressed and leaned another direction. ​Its too bad that sportsmen couldn't have banded together and pushed for some significant changes t​o improve overall wildlife benefits and opportunities. we had many ideas out there from a few different groups but staff kept them suppressed and we basically ended up with a status quo except for a few nuggets.

By legislative statute title 33-1-101 it is the policy of the state of Colorado that the wildlife and their environment are to be protected, preserved, enhanced, and managed for the use, benefit, and enjoyment of the people of this state and its visitors. It is further declared to be the policy of this state that there shall be provided a comprehensive program designed to offer the greatest possible variety of wildlife-related recreational opportunity to the people of this state and its visitors and that, to carry out such program and policy, there shall be a continuous operation of planning, acquisition, and development of wildlife habitats and facilities for wildlife related opportunities.

The bottom line though is it comes back to the dow and how they manage or mismanage wildlife, there are many differences of facts and opinions within dow that don't align with the majority of sportsmens. When populations of animals are reduced and are struggling to recover such as mule deer, antelope and elk in some areas - then all of these other issues become passionate and emotional for sportsmen and they look to point fingers and fight among each other about who should get the opportunity to hunt.

There have been multiple reasons why these discussions become more emotional such as,

DOW going broke - went from a 60 million dollar surplus to a 12 million dollar deficit in 8 years

Population declines

Increased Predation - DOW, bears, coyotes, lions, eagles, poachers, ravens, crows, etc...

Management for opportunity

Increased Mortality - highway, cwd, ehd, fences, etc...

Loss of non resident dollars - Colorado has lost over 40,000 non resident hunters since 2000, it currently takes 13 residents to equal 1 non resident. With more hunters in the field and fewer dollars coming into dow programs wildlife management suffers. Non resident license fees have almost tripled since 2000 with minimal increase in resident fees.
There is no tax money that comes to dow for wildlife management except Pittman Robertson and Dingel Johnson Funds and can only go for habitat and research etc...- not operating money, so the dow depends on the non resident hunter - always has. Out of the 59 million dollars that dow receives annually 45 million comes from the nr hunter, they pay for every program dow has and without it would cease to exist.FY 13-14 Q3 Financial Report
The problem is the average sportsman doesn't know enough details and they get on a rant, but the motive for dow is to get away from traditional funding and let the non consumptive user pay for wildlife management from a tax of some sort.

SCORP
Of Colorado voters
responding to the 2012
Conservation in the West
Poll, 86 percent said that
“Even with state budget
problems, we should still
find money to protect and
maintain Colorado’s land,
water and wildlife.” 82
percent said the same about
state parks.
—Conservation in the West Poll:
Colorado College State of the
Rockies Project.

Increase in resident hunters - moving here

Politics

It is really a supply and demand issue with no easy fixes until both populations of animals and quality increases,

The people who scream the loudest appear to have an entitlement mentality to the wildlife and are some of the ones who moved here and became in essence part of the problem, there is more burden upon the resource, animals, water, habitat etc... especially from the native resident standpoint, We didn't have any problems drawing licenses until more people started moving here, before the year 2000 when allocations were introduced and were supposed to be a 60/40 hard cap, 53% - 57% of the licenses went to Non residents! And you could get leftovers and hunt every year in almost every unit and still apply for a point in the limited units.
Now with the sheer number of them that moved here the native residents will never get an opportunity at some of the sheep, goat, moose and limited elk and deer licenses.

Residents currently get 50% of the landowner vouchers total.

The North American Model for Wildlife Conservation also calls for equal opportunity on public lands of which there are 23,000,000 million acres in Colorado.

A solution to it is if you don't want non residents to fund it for you then you need to pony up and pay for it, most residents will squall like a mashed cat over a $5 dollar increase - when some used to pay the NR fee.
Now some of these same people want to take away other hunters opportunities, talk about standing in a glass house casting stones!​
Just remember you want sportsmen to pay for wildlife management not non consumptive users - you can figure out why.

Another one of the solutions would be to redefine residency as,

Native residents - 50% of the licenses hard cap

Non native residents - 25% hard cap

and Non residents - 25% hard cap

Given the fact that public land belongs to all people regardless of where one lives there should be an equal opportunity for both res​idents​ and non. Some of these groups that scream the loudest ​about these allocations ​believe in this fact and post it in their mission statement and websites.

People who have represented this country and fought and died for it to give us the freedoms we enjoy shouldn't be discriminated against, they represented the United States and the people who live in it - not their home state. ​Say the pledge of allegiance - do you believe it?​

And the biggest reason of all ​for equal opportunity ​is that God created all men equal - without discrimination - such as loving your neighbor as yourself​. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind This is the first and great commandment, and the second is like it - Love your neighbor as yourself which on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
You did see that I was referring to Wyoming and NOT Colorado didn't you? I don't have a dog in this fight, but you and other outfitters like you have done your level best to make hunting a rich man's sport. Selling tags & hunts to the highest bidder. You're your own worst enemy. JMO
 

Red Raider

Member
Oct 1, 2013
122
0
Midland, Texas
Shootbrownelk, You do realize that the Res. wanting the Feds and NR to foot the bill and they (Res) pay very little is not helping your cause. The DOW's need money. It has to come from somewhere. If the Res want to hunt with no outside hunters coming in then the State needs to buy the land and then Tax the Res to pay for it. You can't have it both ways.

If thru an outfitter is the only way the DOW can get more NR dollars, then you're going to see more and more tags go to outfitters. The point creep in Colorado is more than a point a year. Until the Res decide to change the current system, then outfitters are viable choice.

My hunting buddies and I dumped our points when the point creep got out of hand. We decided to spend our hunting dollars else where. The only way for us to get in a quality unit is thru an outfitter. When we want to hunt unit 61, we'll call an outfitters and go.

I'm not sure where the rich mans sport thinking is coming from. Hunting on public land is subsidized by the Feds (everybody who pays taxes). If you want to see what it would really cost, then calculate the expense of hunting if only the hunters paid for hunting public land.
 

In God We Trust

Very Active Member
Mar 10, 2011
805
0
Colorado
Red Raider the DOW is not getting any more money by allowing landowners to sell tags to the highest bidder! I don't think an 80/20 split for resident / non tag allocations is a bad deal for non residents. I am a resident of Colorado and am willing to pay more for tags to keep more for residents. Lets stop the residents don't want to pay more argument. I am not sure why you are defending corruption in a wildlife agency.
Hunting is becoming a rich man's sport because landowners are selling tags to the highest bidder for units that take the average guy years to draw. That is catering to the rich no matter how you spin it.
 
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BKC

Very Active Member
Feb 15, 2012
835
163
The high plains of Colorado
Red Raider the DOW is not getting any more money by allowing landowners to sell tags to the highest bidder! I don't think an 80/20 split for resident / non tag allocations is a bad deal for non residents. I am a resident of Colorado and am willing to pay more for tags to keep more for residents. Lets stop the residents don't want to pay more argument. I am not sure why you are defending corruption in a wildlife agency.
Hunting is becoming a rich man's sport because landowners are selling tags to the highest bidder for units that take the average guy years to draw. That is catering to the rich no matter how you spin it.
Well said!
 

Red Raider

Member
Oct 1, 2013
122
0
Midland, Texas
I'm defending the right for the DOW to get money. If that's by raising Res tags prices then so be it. However, until the Res go to the DOW and tell them they will pay more and also let them know how much, the DOW is going after money anyway they can. At this point the Res haven't been forth coming with a substantial tag increase tells you where the majority of the Res stand.

The DOW knows that the odds are that the NR will pay for the majority of the tags. They need money to operate. The Landowners obviousely. Capitalism should be alive and well in America. At 80/20 the point creep is more than a point a year. The DOW isn't going to wait for the 15 to 20 years for money they can get today. You would't either.

The defending corruption comment was just sad. The Res are getting 80% of the tags. You shouldn't need an outfitter the hunt a quality unit. I'm not OWED anything. I have a right to hunt on PUBLIC land due to the Feds subsidizing the land. The non hunting tax payer is allowing me to do so. If the DOW needs to sell tags to Outfitters so as not to increase the burden on nonhunting people then so be it. This is coming from a guy who pays 12 times what you pay for a tag.

As I stated before. By all means have the State buy all the public land and then tax the Res to pay for running it. You can't have your cake and eat it to unfortunately.
 

Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
8,377
4,778
83
Dolores, Colorado
I have a right to hunt on PUBLIC land due to the Feds subsidizing the land. The non hunting tax payer is allowing me to do so.
This may be so, but the Feds are not subsidizing the management of the cost to the state to manage the game animals, and for that matter the nonhunter is paying almost nothing too! If the state let all the game animals be shot or pushed onto private land, then you would really hear everyone scream. Go ahead and hunt the public lands with nothing there!
 

Red Raider

Member
Oct 1, 2013
122
0
Midland, Texas
CC, I undertand but the management cost comes from 3 other sources besides the Fed's which is Res tag income, NR tag income and Donations. None of the State Taxes paid by Colorado Res goes to the DOW. That's why they're trying to get money anyway they can. The reality is I pay more for manageing the land in Colorado than a Res. does.

I believe the Res should have benefits over that a NR. However, I just can't believe people don't undertand that the management of OUR PUBLIC lands is paid for by everybody. The Res has no additional cost just because they live there.
 

Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
8,377
4,778
83
Dolores, Colorado
CC, I undertand but the management cost comes from 3 other sources besides the Fed's which is Res tag income, NR tag income and Donations. None of the State Taxes paid by Colorado Res goes to the DOW. That's why they're trying to get money anyway they can. The reality is I pay more for manageing the land in Colorado than a Res. does.
Your mixing apples and oranges. Managing the federal lands is the feds responsibility, not the state.... and everybody does pay for it thru their federal taxes. Managing the fish & game is the states responsibility and it come from in state generated revenue. Not all from Parks & Wildlife licenses & tags tho, there is a lot of monies that come from the profits from the state lottery (GOCO) that are grants to P & W. Also monies from boat and ohv registrations too.
 

packmule

Veteran member
Jun 21, 2011
2,433
0
TX
Prob is they blow it on trying to manage people instead of on the wildlife for the most part.
 

Red Raider

Member
Oct 1, 2013
122
0
Midland, Texas
CC, You're correct. Money generated thru tags sales & registrations (REs & NR tag sales) and grants (donations). All voluntary moneys ie "if you want to use the resource then you have to pay" which is fair. Didn't know about the Lottery but that's voluntary money as well.

My point is still the same. The Res don't pay any more to use the Land than a NR. The DOW and State Agencies have to maximize the income from the people who want to use the resource. If that means getting more tags in the hands of NR then they're going to do so because they have too.

Example: They allocate 300 hundred tags for Unit 61. Let them give all 300 to Res. and leave the NR out. To generate the same income, they would have to sell 960 tags. Beside there being a hunter behind every tree, the unit wouldn't be a quality unit very long at that rate.

I know you Res don't like us NR, but we have just as much right to hunt that land as the Res. It's just frustrating to here that we don't have a right to tags when we pay as much and most cases more to take care of it.

I probably haven't been winning friends and influencing people with my comments. However, I'll be in unit 62 in 3 weeks (first time back in 3 years) for the elk only season. Anyone here is welcome at my fire anytime.
 

packmule

Veteran member
Jun 21, 2011
2,433
0
TX
I'd say NRs & Res have way less rights than the LOs in the units who help house the wildlife. Could you imagine owning several thousand acres here in TX and TPWD tell you that you lucked out, didn't draw and can't hunt your own property for a few years because some NR, or a postage stamp lot Res deserves a tag for the county?