Setting up a muzzleloader for Colorado elk

[Umpqua Hunter]

Colorado bans sabots, does not say a word about jacketed bullets. Most of the people I know who M/L hunt here use jacketed(including my neighbor who is a P&W Officer!

CC, I can tell you a "sabotless" muzzy would be a redonkulous Colorado muzzy if the jacketed bullets are legal. Mine still has 1200 foot pounds of energy at 500 yards. It is NOT a light rifle though.

I would need to figure out how to set-up with open signs. The guy who did my barrel work, Jeff Fisk, Bestill Creations has done them with open sights. Jeff is one of the best guys I have ever worked with on a project. He is very patient as well. If anyone contacts him, tell him Jim from Oregon sent you. He is a world class long range muzzleloader guy and does beautiful work. I understand he holds the world record for 500 yard muzzleloader shooting.

These designs are more widely used in Eastern US hunting seasons, where smokeless muzzies are used to hunt with. As some of these guys say, the best smokeless muzzleloaders make the best Blackhorn 209 muzzleloaders. That is what I was interested in for Western hunting.

Mine is built on a stainless Remington short action, a 45 caliber Brux barrel (18 twist I recall), a ASG 209 breech plug, Timney trigger, Remage nut (to headspace the 209 primer), Jeff Fisk's muzzle brake and loading funnel, Bell and Carlson M40 stock with aluminum bedding block.

A Swinglock die is used to size the bullet for an exact fit in your barrel. Swinglock dies have 0.0001" increments for bullet sizing. You size them for about 20 pounds of loading force on a clean barrel. Put your muzzy on a bathroom scale to measure the loading force.

There is more to it, it would take me two hours to type out all the nuances, but let me tell you it is one impressive firearm.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Umpqua Hunter
Thanks for all the info did AZ resently make changes to the regs regarding Muz

Dustin, AZ, NM and UT have very liberal muzzleloader laws. You can basically use all the bells and whistles including scopes. You just can't use smokeless powder. Blackhorn 209 is the real deal though being a blackpowder equivalent.

 

[dustin ray]

Thanks yes blackhorn 209 is the real deal iv used it for years in my TC also in my long range muzzleloader 45cal 327 grain bullets with 115 grains by weight of blackhorn 209 its a lot of fun to shot last week i was hitting a trash can lid at 700 yards it would be cool to have the same gun with no scope

 

[ore hunter]

not sure if bh 209 is legal for Oregon ,so I use 777.colorado might be ok,,havnt checked the colo regs to know for sure.

 

[mallardsx2]

Accura MR Nitride .50
SEEALL Pyramid sight sight
Blackhorn209 speed breech
Blackhorn powder
Winchester 209 primers
HORNADY FPB -300GR

For the money invested in this setup I just dont see how you could get a better setup for lugging around the mountains of Colorado.

Its hardly "muzzleloader" hunting. Dont overthink it. lol

 

[Bonecollector]

Has anyone done any comparisons on BH209 vs Triple 7 ?

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Has anyone done any comparisons on BH209 vs Triple 7 ?

I've shot both. BH209 is a far superior powder. Consistent velocities, very clean burning, minimal barrel fouling, less corrosive.

These are possibly the two BIGGEST keys to muzzleloader accuracy:

1 - Consistent bore conditions between every shot

2 - Keeping the flame path from the primer to the powder uniformly clean

You can achieve "1" with "spit patching" with T7.

There was a guy (Russel Lynch) who had a very good video series on muzzleloader accuracy and Triple 7 was one of only two powders he recommended. The key to his accuracy was maintaining consistent bore conditions shot to shot and that requires certain steps with T7. After each shot with T7 run a moist patch. Some guys I used to hear would use Windex (I may be mistaken, read up on it online). I personally would use this light blue liquid from a local vendor. Fully wet a patch (I'd keep soaked ones in a ziplock), roll the patch into a ball and tightly squeeze it with your fingers. The result should be a very slightly wet patch. Run one or two of these down your barrel to clean up the "crud ring" T7 leaves in your barrel. After that run two dry patches. You are then ready to reload. I believe that process is referred to as "spit patching" probably referring back to the old days method. Of course in the heat of the moment on a follow-up shot, you might want to forego those steps, but for consistent shot to shot accuracy I would to it.

In full disclosure on my Remington 700/Brux sabotless muzzy, we do the same spit patching steps as above but use a mixture of 50% Hoppe 9 and 50% Isopropyl Alcohol (90% strength from the pharmacy). This is because BH209 isn't designed to be water soluble. It probably isn't necessary, but when you have a bore fit jacketed bullet where 0.00005" of bore diameter (half a ten-thousandths) significantly affects loading pressure and you want to hold sub MOA accuracy at 500 yards, you do everything you can to eliminate every variable.

As you saw in my earlier post, I don't mess with spit patching with B209 and conicals and still maintain excellent accuracy.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Be cautious with Windex as there are 2 types that have exactly the same blue color. One is Ammonia based, the other is vinegar based. Cowboy action shooters who shoot black powder cartridge use it to clean their guns of BP residue. Use only the vinegar based Windex...look closely at the label. The ammonia based stuff can be corrosive to blue jobs. I actually use a solution of 50% Ballistol/50% water, which I use to clean my M/L too. Ballistol is a water soluble oil that I believe is a derivative of aerospace water soluble lubricating oil we used in the machine shop and assembly line for drilling titanium...(looks the same, smells the same, etc). It really does a good job of cleaning/lubricating guns too. I've been using it for 15 years or so with great results.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Be cautious with Windex as there are 2 types that have exactly the same blue color. One is Ammonia based, the other is vinegar based. Cowboy action shooters who shoot black powder cartridge use it to clean their guns of BP residue. Use only the vinegar based Windex...look closely at the label. The ammonia based stuff can be corrosive to blue jobs. I actually use a solution of 50% Ballistol/50% water, which I use to clean my M/L too. Ballistol is a water soluble oil that I believe is a derivative of aerospace water soluble lubricating oil we used in the machine shop and assembly line for drilling titanium...(looks the same, smells the same, etc). It really does a good job of cleaning/lubricating guns too. I've been using it for 15 years or so with great results.

Great tip CC...I had wondered about a water soluble oil. Excellent idea and feedback!

 

[ore hunter]

does anybody know if you can use bh209 in Oregon or Idaho?Ive been using777,but would like to know for sure?

 

[JimP]

They are both loose black powder substitutes so I don't know why not.

Might have to actually look at their regulations to be sure.

Here is Idaho's requirements for the muzzle loader hunt. Number 3 talks about the powders:

1. Is capable of being loaded ONLY from the muzzle.
2. Is equipped with a single or double-barrel.
3. Is loaded ONLY with loose black powder OR other loose synthetic black powder.
4. Is loaded with a patched round ball OR a conical, unjacketed projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy. No sabots.
5. Is loaded with a projectile that is within .010 of an inch of the bore diameter.
6. Is equipped ONLY with a flint OR a percussion cap OR a musket cap. 209 primers are prohibited.
7. Is equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of the cap is clearly exposed and visible when the hammer of the weapon is cocked and ready to fire.
8. Has no scope, only open or peep sights. Fiber optic open sites are permitted.
9. Is free of any electronic devices.
10. Is at least forty-five (.45) caliber for deer, antelope, or mountain lion.
11. Is at least fifty (.50) caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, or black bear.

Here is the ML for Oregon concerning powders:

It is illegal to hunt with pelletized powders or propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Granular (loose) black powder and black powder substitutes are the only legal propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only.


So you should be able to use any loose powder like 777 or BH209 but you might have ignition problems if you can't use a 209 primer.

 

[CoHiCntry]

Can’t use Blackhorn with a cap, musket or #11 so you can’t use it in states that don’t allow 209 primers.

 

[JimP]

You can use it but you won't have reliable ignition of the powder.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

You can use it but you won't have reliable ignition of the powder.

Unless you think it through

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Can’t use Blackhorn with a cap, musket or #11 so you can’t use it in states that don’t allow 209 primers.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[JimP]

Unless you think it through

I agree and wouldn't try it.

I don't even use those powders in my inline with 209 primers. I have found that I get my best accuracy with Pyrodex.

I actually have a almost full bottle of both BH209 and 777 sitting on a shelf that I tried out and didn't use all of. I might try them again if I switch loads.

 

[ore hunter]

maybe it might be worth trying a 2 part load? #11 primer,burn into say 40 gr of 777,then throw 50 gr of bh209 to get a full 90 gr load?im sure the bh209 would fire with some 777 fired first?would have to give it a try and see if there was a good gain in fps?has anybody tried this idea?

 

[Mud Farm]

Blackhorn 209 seems to hard to find by me. Both Cabela's by me didn't carry it. I could order online but they have a $20 hazardous material fee. Cabelas wouldn't ship to the store to save the shipping cost either. I'll have to try Shooter's Supply next time I go by.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

maybe it might be worth trying a 2 part load? #11 primer,burn into say 40 gr of 777,then throw 50 gr of bh209 to get a full 90 gr load?im sure the bh209 would fire with some 777 fired first?would have to give it a try and see if there was a good gain in fps?has anybody tried this idea?

It doesn't take nearly 40 grains, think more like 10% of that, and I wouldn't use 777.

With 40 grains of 777 you have basically the same mess to deal with as if you are running straight 777, and there are significant safety risks of a duplex load like that.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Blackhorn 209 seems to hard to find by me. Both Cabela's by me didn't carry it. I could order online but they have a $20 hazardous material fee. Cabelas wouldn't ship to the store to save the shipping cost either. I'll have to try Shooter's Supply next time I go by.

Based on my experience with Blackhorn 209, a $20 HAZMAT fee is well worth the advantages it provides.