non-mag do all rifle setup?

Mr Drysdale · Aug 8, 2017

At 500 yards the 7mm08 is good to go. I actually like and use the 308 & 260 Rem. But for Elk size I like the 308.

Tim McCoy · Aug 8, 2017

The very high BC bullets really offer little advantage until they get past 500 yards or so. You are good there. LA vs SA is about 1/2" ish and a little weight. But you can make a very short handy rifle with a SA and 20" tube. Have a Rem M7 SS with a 20" tube. Light, handy, and difficult to shoot for me much past 300. I've settled on long actions based off the 30-06, with medium contour 24" tubes, as my go to. They balance well for me and I find them easier to shootout to 500-600. 25-06 and 280 are my main tools, with a couple light weight 270's with 22 1/2" tubes thrown in too.

Where the 280 offers gains over the 7-08 is with heavier bullets. 160 ish grains +. For your goals, mostly deer sized stuff, a 140 grain pill seems best, meaning there will not be much difference between the two at that bullet weight. A good 140 will handle elk fine too.

With your criteria, I'd probably end up with a .284 Win and 22" tube. Possibly a 6.5 CM or 6.5x284. There is an old saying that more weight on a rifle is good for everything but carrying.

mcseal2 · Aug 8, 2017

I owned and loaded for a couple 280's with 22" barrels. I was able to get good accuracy from both but at limited speeds. Powders have come a ways since I tried, I was using the 4350's, 4831's, and RL22. I wasn't seeing speeds much better than advertised speeds for 7mm/08 factory stuff with the same barrel length. It could have just been the guns I had, I'm no 280 expert. For whatever reason the 270's I loaded for with 20 and 22" barrels did much better on velocity. The 280's were running 140gr bullets at 2800fps and 160gr bullets at 2650 to 2700. The 20" 270 ran 150gr Ballistic tips at 2950fps and the 22" Ruger American ran 140gr Accubonds at 2950fps with similar accuracy, powder weights in relation to max, and load development.

Another disclaimer, that's just my personal experience with a M77 Ruger tang safety rifle and a Browning A bolt in 280 not a knock on the 280. I like the 280 I just think that it's like the 25-06 a bit, it needs some barrel length to achieve the speeds I look for from my work with both.

If I was not concerned with elk I'd probably look hard at the 6.5mm offerings. I think I could find a case/barrel length combo that would push a fairly high BC 120gr bullet at 2900fps or more and would do what I'd want it to on deer size game with fairly mild recoil. The 270 win isn't a bad choice either but might kick a bit more.

I don't see a lot of reason to go with a 7mm Ackley improved option unless I'm looking to go to a heavier bullet. If I'm going that route I would go with the 280 Ackley and a 24" barrel. That would be more of an all around option that would handle elk well. In a light rifle that's a pretty big step up in recoil also and probably not necessary for the deer hunting you describe.

When I did a similar build I ended up taking an inaccurate Kimber 84L Montana in 280 Ackley I picked up used and building a 24" 270 win off it. The Kimber from the factory was only giving 3 to 4" groups with the factory ammo I tried of different weights so I built off it with Pac Nor #3 fluted 270 barrel I had on in 270 Win on a heavier M70 action. After the barrel swap the 270 shoots 130gr factory Nosler 130gr Accubond ammo very well at a tolerable recoil level. The factory ammo is only moving 2964fps but it suits my needs. An attempt at improving that might step recoil up to a level I don't like. That barrel has always liked a 140gr Accubond at 2950fps and still does, but it does so with considerably more recoil.

JimP · Aug 8, 2017

I'd narrow it down to two old workhorses. Either the 30-06 or a 270 Win. Either one will work quite well in a 20-22 inch barrel and are quite capable of dropping anything up to and including elk.

I might lean towards the .270 just for the reason that I don't have one yet, at least the .270 Win. I do have a nice short Ruger #1 in .270 Weatherby.

fackelberry · Aug 8, 2017

I have been working on a similar project all summer. I had a 7mm-08 built on a Rem 700 SA, 22in. lightweight fluted barrel, HS Precision stock, bedded, Timney trigger, all Teflon coated. My load i found shoots 140gr, Accubonds at 2800FPS, I have a 4-12x40mm Leupold scope on it. Whole thing as i described weighs 6.5 pounds. What a dream to carry up the mountain. I love it. I have personally seen 2 smaller 6 point bull elk shot with a similar load out of another 7mm-08 and the 140 Accubond at around 250 yards broadside. Both bullets went out the other side of the bulls. They only went about 25 yards and down they went. I'm a firm believer in the 7-08 for elk as long as the range is adequate and you use good bullets. It will do anything with a 140gr bullet a 270 or 280 will do with the same bullet, with less kick and usually a smaller lighter rifle. Like was said before if you go heavier than a 140, the 270 or 280 would edge the 7-08 out, but not by much! I love mine and wouldn't trade it for nothing!

Timberstalker · Aug 8, 2017

I was in a similar situation last winter. I ended up getting Kimber Hunter in 280AI. I had some issues with it at first but I'm getting it dialed in now. It's light, and shoots sub MOA and all I've done to it is have the trigger adjusted. 160 gr accubond bullet

Silentstalker · Aug 8, 2017

All mentioned rifles would do exactly what you are looking for.

I did the same thing a few years ago and chose the .270 Win. I loaded it with a 150 gr. Nosler Partitions/Ballistic tips.
It is a pleasure to shoot and components/dies etc are very cheap and easy to find.

Umpqua Hunter · Aug 9, 2017

My cartridge philosophy is moving towards cartridges which will push the high BC (ballistic coefficient), heavy for caliber, bullets at the high end of their performance spectrum, but not so hard as to be a barrel burner. For me, my focus has moved to 7mm (.284) and 6.5mm (.264) bullets since their BC bullets correspond well with the game I want to hunt with them (see below). That comes from someone who has been a long time hunter with a 300 WSM (6.5 pound with scope, short action, love it!) and for the 20 years before that a .270 (killed 5 sheep, three moose and a grizzly as well as a lot more game with it).

The high BC 6.5 mm bullets fall in the 140 grain range which is about a perfect bullet weight for antelope, deer, sheep, etc and is also a reasonable weight bullet for elk (keeping the range of your shots reasonable). Realize that the 6.5X55 (short action I believe) has been used for moose for decades in Europe.

The high BC 7 mm bullets fall in the 180-195 grain range which is a very solid elk performer but on the heavy end for deer and antelope. My gut says that you really need magnum to maximize the performance of the high BC 7mm bullets.

So with that in mind, I was recently in the market for a 6.5 mm cartridge. As you may know from another thread, I recently went through this process and went with a 6.5 Creedmoor. I chose it for the following reasons:

1) Short action, my feelings was the CM was maximizing the 6.5 mm in a short action
2) Non magnum
3) High BC bullets (140 grain) commonly available in factory ammo and relatively cheap.
4) Very mild recoil (for kids/grandkids to shoot)
5) Long barrel life
6) Inherently accurate
7) Lapua brass available for reloading
8) Wildly popular cartridge

The rifle I ended up ordering was the Tikka T3X CTR which comes in both a 20" and 24" barrel and also has a threaded muzzle. My 24" showed up yesterday

Had I been willing to go long action, and hunt mostly with reloads, I would have gone with the 6.5-284. Who knows that may still end up in my gun safe as a high performance rifle for deer sized game

As for the 7 mm, I've accumulating components for a 28 Nosler as I wanted a cartridge that really makes the most of the high BC bullets in 7mm.

As a side note, It would be interesting to compare the 7mm-08 to the 6.5 Creedmoor, both with 140 grain bullets. For example, in the Bergers at 140 grain, the BC is roughly 20% higher for 6.5 mm bullets as compared to 7mm bullets.

wy-tex · Aug 9, 2017

I know you said non mag but look into a 300 wsm or 270 wsm.
Recoil is not an issue for me and lots of loads for them.
Love my 270 wsm , pretty flat shooting and good out to 500 yds.

kidoggy · Aug 12, 2017

that aughta git-r-dun.

Tim McCoy · Aug 13, 2017

mcseal2 said:
I owned and loaded for a couple 280's with 22" barrels. I was able to get good accuracy from both but at limited speeds. Powders have come a ways since I tried, I was using the 4350's, 4831's, and RL22. I wasn't seeing speeds much better than advertised speeds for 7mm/08 factory stuff with the same barrel length. It could have just been the guns I had, I'm no 280 expert. For whatever reason the 270's I loaded for with 20 and 22" barrels did much better on velocity. The 280's were running 140gr bullets at 2800fps and 160gr bullets at 2650 to 2700. The 20" 270 ran 150gr Ballistic tips at 2950fps and the 22" Ruger American ran 140gr Accubonds at 2950fps with similar accuracy, powder weights in relation to max, and load development.

Another disclaimer, that's just my personal experience with a M77 Ruger tang safety rifle and a Browning A bolt in 280 not a knock on the 280. I like the 280 I just think that it's like the 25-06 a bit, it needs some barrel length to achieve the speeds I look for from my work with both.

If I was not concerned with elk I'd probably look hard at the 6.5mm offerings. I think I could find a case/barrel length combo that would push a fairly high BC 120gr bullet at 2900fps or more and would do what I'd want it to on deer size game with fairly mild recoil. The 270 win isn't a bad choice either but might kick a bit more.

I don't see a lot of reason to go with a 7mm Ackley improved option unless I'm looking to go to a heavier bullet. If I'm going that route I would go with the 280 Ackley and a 24" barrel. That would be more of an all around option that would handle elk well. In a light rifle that's a pretty big step up in recoil also and probably not necessary for the deer hunting you describe.

When I did a similar build I ended up taking an inaccurate Kimber 84L Montana in 280 Ackley I picked up used and building a 24" 270 win off it. The Kimber from the factory was only giving 3 to 4" groups with the factory ammo I tried of different weights so I built off it with Pac Nor #3 fluted 270 barrel I had on in 270 Win on a heavier M70 action. After the barrel swap the 270 shoots 130gr factory Nosler 130gr Accubond ammo very well at a tolerable recoil level. The factory ammo is only moving 2964fps but it suits my needs. An attempt at improving that might step recoil up to a level I don't like. That barrel has always liked a 140gr Accubond at 2950fps and still does, but it does so with considerably more recoil.

My 280 out of a 24" Brux tube averages 3,013 fps with Barnes LRX bullets. Older 280 loads were anemic, and iirc, the SAAMI psi spec is higher for the 270. So even with its shoulder moved just a bit forward vs the 270, many older manuals show it as a slower round. Was due to the 280 being offered by Rem in an auto loader as I recall, not due to a weak case.

shootbrownelk · Aug 13, 2017

From what I've read the .280 Ackley Improved is the most efficient of all the A.I. examples. I had a .280, not an A.I. and it was good elk medicine.

rammont · Aug 13, 2017

Once again I'm watching people swing from excessively heavy, big, overpowered cartridges to the very light, fast, underpowered cartridges and jumping over the most common compromise just because they reject the "old" school solutions out of hand - just the same reason why the Army is now looking for a 7.62 cartridge - again...

The best compromise is a .308, you can get very light mountain rifles in the 6-pound range pretty easily and it'll take everything on the North American continent. This discussion about BC numbers is pretty useless under any hunting circumstances, BC is something a long range competition shooter worries about, not the average hunter. And velocity is a matter of bullet weight more than caliber, a 6mm bullet is smaller in diameter so it's easier to get them in lighter bullets which makes it esier to push them faster - unfortunately that means you have to keep the bullet as fast as possible to make up for their lack of potential energy. I can push a 110gr Vmax out of my 16.25" barreled .308 at over 3100 fps pretty easily, I'm shooting 168gr bullets at 2600 fps out of it and for most hunting situations (in the real world, not what you see on some commercial hunting show) it'll perform very well without any elevation change out to 230 yards or so. But the truth is I'd rather shoot the far slower 168gr bullet at an elk than the far faster lighter bullet, the bigger bullet is constructed better for taking an elk, the little 110gr Vmax would probably just explode on contact and wouldn't do much more than just wound the elk terribly and make it suffer.

I've done long range shooting with a competition club and I know several competitors that have switched over to .308 from 6.5 Creedmore simply because the trajectory isn't much of an issue any more with modern day calcuators and range finders but the wind is still a problem and the heavier bullets of a .308 will resist wind induced movement far better than a 6mm bullet will. The modern high BC bullets for .30 caliber cartridges help make the case for a .30 even better. Now we can get good hunting bullets that have high BC values. My .308 Win and 30-06 bullets (168gr to 200gr) are sighted in for 100 yards and out to 200 yards or so I don't have to adjust my elevation when I'm hunting (if I sight in at 200 yards I really have no reason to change elevation out 300 yards on elk and 250 or so on deer), I might if I'm shooting at paper targets in a competition but even then I doubt I'd bother, and in most real world hunting situations you're not going to get too many shots past 300 yards and most hunters aren't good enough to shoot past that range anyways.

Pick what you want but I'll keep my .30 cal, standard cartridges.

DRUSS · Aug 13, 2017

Not sure if weight and length are some of your biggest deciding factors, but I have a 280AI 24" benchmark barrel that is just 8# 2oz sling,full magazine, vx6 3-18. I had a 4.5-14?40 On it before and was 3 or 4 oz less. I chose a 24" barrel because most info I found said to get best performance out of this cartridge it was a better choice. I get 3250 out of 140gr bt, accubonds. 180gr Berger is going 2900. Was working on LRAB 150 but it doesn't like me or my gun. Have a 7mm08 also but it's a tikka so long action and dont have the advantage of being short action. Its 140 gr loads are running 2850fps. I think these are 2 great all round type guns. But i am a fan of 30/06 cased cartridges. 25/06,270,280,30/06. I have all and enjoy them. Also have a 30/06 AI. Which my dad uses as his one gun for everything. It comes in at 7 3/4# if I remember right.

BuzzH · Aug 13, 2017

rammont said:
Once again I'm watching people swing from excessively heavy, big, overpowered cartridges to the very light, fast, underpowered cartridges and jumping over the most common compromise just because they reject the "old" school solutions out of hand - just the same reason why the Army is now looking for a 7.62 cartridge - again...

The best compromise is a .308, you can get very light mountain rifles in the 6-pound range pretty easily and it'll take everything on the North American continent. This discussion about BC numbers is pretty useless under any hunting circumstances, BC is something a long range competition shooter worries about, not the average hunter. And velocity is a matter of bullet weight more than caliber, a 6mm bullet is smaller in diameter so it's easier to get them in lighter bullets which makes it esier to push them faster - unfortunately that means you have to keep the bullet as fast as possible to make up for their lack of potential energy. I can push a 110gr Vmax out of my 16.25" barreled .308 at over 3100 fps pretty easily, I'm shooting 168gr bullets at 2600 fps out of it and for most hunting situations (in the real world, not what you see on some commercial hunting show) it'll perform very well without any elevation change out to 230 yards or so. But the truth is I'd rather shoot the far slower 168gr bullet at an elk than the far faster lighter bullet, the bigger bullet is constructed better for taking an elk, the little 110gr Vmax would probably just explode on contact and wouldn't do much more than just wound the elk terribly and make it suffer.

I've done long range shooting with a competition club and I know several competitors that have switched over to .308 from 6.5 Creedmore simply because the trajectory isn't much of an issue any more with modern day calcuators and range finders but the wind is still a problem and the heavier bullets of a .308 will resist wind induced movement far better than a 6mm bullet will. The modern high BC bullets for .30 caliber cartridges help make the case for a .30 even better. Now we can get good hunting bullets that have high BC values. My .308 Win and 30-06 bullets (168gr to 200gr) are sighted in for 100 yards and out to 200 yards or so I don't have to adjust my elevation when I'm hunting (if I sight in at 200 yards I really have no reason to change elevation out 300 yards on elk and 250 or so on deer), I might if I'm shooting at paper targets in a competition but even then I doubt I'd bother, and in most real world hunting situations you're not going to get too many shots past 300 yards and most hunters aren't good enough to shoot past that range anyways.

Pick what you want but I'll keep my .30 cal, standard cartridges.

A rather infamous poster on another board called it right, "You have to neck the suck out of the .308"...

6mm Remington · Aug 14, 2017

HuskyMusky said:
Update, I'm thinking 280 AI, 22" barrel, 6.5lbs rifle, plus scope maybe 8lbs.

You might consider a 24" barrel with the .280 Ackley Improved. It has a bit more pop than the 280 Remington and could use the extra 2" of barrel length. I have a 24" Shilen match grade barrel on the .280 AI I had built two years ago. I love that rifle and I like the extra two inches of barrel length. I need to play with a couple more bullets like the Accubond, but the 140 gr. Partition load I have right now sure works. It also chronographs at 3230 fps with no pressure signs using IMR7828SSC.

Elkhunter96 · Aug 14, 2017

Just to add my .02 to the list

-6.5 x 284 if you hand load. I have one and really like the way it shoots.
-280 AI is the next on my list. They just seem to flat out shoot well

non-mag do all rifle setup?

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