MT Federal Land Transfering to the State!!!

TwoBear

New Member
BB, first off, every politician is in the pocket of somebody. I concur that land sale bill could be reversed in Montana, what prevents federal government from selling? Secondly, I have approximately zero trust in the federal government. As far as whether or not the state can afford, I have not seen a cost/revenue analysis yet. What types of revenue might the state bring in? Finally, the federal government cannot afford to run the lands either, lets not kid ourselves. All I am saying is I have not decided one way or the other, and I sure I'm not going to run out and sign some petition when nobody has all the facts. I don't care who is for or against it, lets see what develops, what proposal may come, and what it really means. Inherently I feel the people of Montana are better land stewards then the unelected bureaucrats of D.C.
 

Bitterroot Bulls

Veteran member
Apr 25, 2011
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Montana
TwoBear,

Thanks for the reasoned response.

BB, first off, every politician is in the pocket of somebody.
I partly disagree with this. While special interests can and do influence most politicians, only a few actively spread the propoganda of one industry on their official website.

what prevents federal government from selling?
An act of congress on the National scale.

Secondly, I have approximately zero trust in the federal government.
Including the military? Sure, there has been plenty of waste in the Federal System, but there are advantages too, such as the Federal System is generally more insulated from political swings. Lets say the switch to state control occurs and suddenly all the environmental activists decide to flood Montana as their "homeland," and push the state politics towards their point of view. Extreme example I know, but the point is sometimes a little political tempering is a good thing.

It was the Federal government with D and R reps from MT that have done some good, both protecting thousands of acres on the Rocky Mountain Front AND expanding logging in MT and AK. Sounds like reasonable compromise to me.

As far as whether or not the state can afford, I have not seen a cost/revenue analysis yet.
Here is the Utah study:

http://publiclands.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/1.%20Land%20Transfer%20Analysis%20Final%20Report.pdf

Read it if you wish. I have. The synopsis is that after a "challenging" first five or so years after transfer, Utah could break even or even make a profit if the extraction industry market remains strong, and management costs remian steady (no bad fire year, etc.). The study cautions that there are serious economic risks, however, and success is a best case scenario. The study also states that state management would be more "permissive" to extraction industry than federal government and road building and ATV access would increase. I don't think that is necessarily what all hunters are looking for.

All of this ignores the legal challenges, where most legal scholars agree the states have little ground to stand on. Utah is also going through this now. So, in the end, after the "study" in MT, and Fielder's promise not to sell, what we will be left with in this movement is just a big fat bill for nothing. Which isn't very responsible governing, IMO.

I don't feel like I have made a knee-jerk reaction, and have been researching this a bunch myself since it started gaining steam about two years ago here in the Bitterroot. I am glad to see you are waiting to make an educated decision, and sure encourage you to continue researching it; and I will as well.
 

TwoBear

New Member
It still doesn't change the fact that the feds can sell, and they are a serious credit risk to boot. The movement I believe will fail, however, I will be revisited and perhaps more importantly, we are seeing the states beginning to stand up to the feds, and it has to start somewhere. The US government cannot afford to run these lands either, and do so while plunging the American people further into debt. Whether we like it or not, we are facing a future of tough choices.
 

Bitterroot Bulls

Veteran member
Apr 25, 2011
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Montana
Well,

It turns out our suspicions were correct about Senator Fielder and the American Lands Council:

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/mtleg/senator-s-aide-asked-to-leave-after-registering-as-lobbyist/article_1056414b-959a-5bb0-b4f9-2bd7b9523ca1.html?utm_medium=mobile&utm_source=block_669158&utm_campaign=blox&mode=jqm

Fielder's aid is a registered lobbyist for the ALC, and has now been found to have committed an eithics violation for spreading ALC propoganda at the sportsmen's rally in Helena while simultaneously working as an aid for Fielder.

There are deep and dark forces behind this movement.
 

TwoBear

New Member
LOL, come on BB, deep dark forces? Look, every politician is beholding to somebody, every single one. The USFS is full of anti-hunting leftist. I own an outfitting business, and my permits are on federal land, so there is literally no one that has more to risk than I do, but I am willing to listen and evaluate. We have for decades wanted to have our cake and eat it too, the time has come for us to sink or swim and start making some tough choices and change the way we do business. The federal government can absolutely not afford to run these lands, and they are bankrupting our future. Entitlements must be given up, sound fiscal policy must be instituted, and debt incursion dramatically reduced. How many people use federal lands that never pay a red cent in tax for them at the expense of those who do? I am willing to look at all possibilities.
 

Bitterroot Bulls

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Apr 25, 2011
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Montana
twobear,

It is no laughing matter to me.

Having a dark money extractive industry group's employee acting as an aid to a sitting state senator pushing the group's agenda doesn't concern you? This is not something that everybody does. This is truly concerning. The ALC is not just a special interest group advocating for common people like the backcountry hunters and anglers, trout unlimited, etc. The ALC is a big money group that is INVESTING in this idea, so that it can make money for those funding them.

The national debt and public land management are issues that can be handled independently. My opinion is that federal land management in the West is not the area where we should be saving money. There are tons of areas of pure pork and excess in the Federal Government where money can be saved. There are also ways to increase revenues. Solutions can be made without this "transfer."

Consider that the state land management agency in MT, the DNRC, is AGAINST this idea.

Lastly,

I have listened to the other side, for years, as much of this movement started with people in my area. After considering it, I strongly sit against it, and encourage all hunters, fisherman, and other recreators to do the same.

Our public lands are not an ATM. We shouldn't be trading them for cash, whether it is through outright sale, or unrestricted development/extraction.
 

TwoBear

New Member
An ATM for cash is exactly what they could become when foreign entities stop buying American T-Bonds. The title holder to these lands is bankrupt needing desperately to satisfy loans. The federal government can't use federal lands as collateral when they are owned by the states, and as is stands there is nothing stopping the feds from selling. This government will do anything to preserve itself, anything. Way too many people have grossly underestimated where America is at today, this is a nation in deep trouble. We have to go into debt to foreigners just to make the monthly bills, do you really think there is just good will and trust backing these loans? I am not at all willing to separate the government debt from their biggest collateral market: federal lands.
 

Bitterroot Bulls

Veteran member
Apr 25, 2011
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Montana
Twobear,

You have gone a little too far down the conspiracy theory path for me with that one, friend. The "federal lands are collateral for national debt" conspiracy theory was debunked long ago, but you are feel to believe what you want.http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/domain.asp
There is something preventing the feds from selling public lands: an act of Congress (on a National scale) as we previously discussed.

I am also concerned about our national debt, and agree we should be working hard to reduce it. I don't think the land transfer will help that, or anything else for that matter.

Since you mentioned you are still researching the issue, I hope you continue to do so, and are still open to coming to the anti-transfer side. I appreciate the conversation.

God bless.
 
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TwoBear

New Member
What act of congress isn't on a national scale? As for the domain/china nonsense a agree with you completely, I don't buy that nonsense either nor is it what I am referring to. Here is what we do know: The US government debt will sooner or later be called, how possibly can they mitigate that debt? There is no provision prohibiting the sale of land, other than a simple congressional vote, the same people that routinely pass laws "to see what's in it" that they have not read. It is coming, it will happen. According to you, the state of Utah is at a break even point in 5 years on managing, as opposed the federal government which continues to add debt, the largest federal liability being interest on that debt. Who is the better credit risk? From a management perspective who is better at managing local lands, the local people or Washington bureaucrats? You have not addressed the trend towards non-consumptive use in federal land management agencies. The Montana state constitution protects the right of hunting, fishing, and trapping specifically, the US constitution does not, who is more likely to hold these values more dearly, the state or the feds?
As for conspiracy junk, I am indeed suspicious of phrases like "dark money", a leftist buzz word, or "Koch Brothers" arguments etc, also leftist rhetoric. I am suspicious of false claims of lost opportunities etc. I am suspicious of groups claiming to be one thing, but really just being a front for something else. The federal government could care less about hunters and their guns. Those who have ears, let them hear.
BB, you and I will just have to disagree with the path forward, but find satisfaction in the possibility that we both may want the same things, just have different routes to get there. Keep your string tight, and may God Bless you and your family.
 

Bitterroot Bulls

Veteran member
Apr 25, 2011
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Montana
TwoBear,

I am certain we are more alike than different. I appreciate your suspicions of phrases like "dark money," but rest assured the federal government ultimately answers to the people, while the American Lands Council answers to their funders. Dark money groups are real whatever you label them, and Ds and Rs alike are working to bring light to their darkness:

http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/montana-legislature/montana-senate-passes-bill-aimed-at-dark-money/article_cd9fe899-6bc1-536c-b619-7186e9927bd7.html

As far as non-consumptive use: I am biased. I am a public land hunter. I would rather see management of public lands that is better for hunting and other types of recreation by the public. Typically this is "non-consumptive." However, I see good, sustainable consumptive uses on public lands as well. Uses like responsible logging and limited mining. I think the focus should be on preservation of these lands for the future, not extraction for the present.

As far as federal vs. state management, the federal management is much more insulated from the swings of local politics, and is more friendly to the conservation-minded recreator than the state has been.

That is my take, and it does look like we aren't going to agree on it. That's regrettable, but I assure you I will tip my hat should we meet on the trail.