Montana, antis attempt to buy seat at wildlife management

[Topgun 30-06]

llp---Excellent post and of which I agree 100%. If this was such a bad proposal as others think it is you can bet that there would have been all kinds of organizations like RMEF coming to the front to oppose it. That didn't happen and I think some are just crying wolf over this wolf stamp proposal for lack of a better way to put it!

 

[25contender]

Just a few comments on a article about the Wolf stamp.

"This is a welcome development. Even if some of the money goes to ranchers and some is used for research which is not yet defined, it gives non-consumptive wildlife users leverage in commenting on and influencing FWP wildlife policies."

" As a non-consumptive user who lives in Montana this is exactly what we have been needing for a long time now. Please do not sit here and dismiss it as some way for hunters to gain more ground on killing wolves. Right now RMEF is funding the research on wolves. That isn't working. We need a seat at that table! And this stamp is making anti-wolf people nervous. That alone is a good thing."

" I support the wildlife for non-consumptive usage stamp. I also totally see Dave Taylor and Rocky Sehnerts points of view and agree also. But, I think this is albeit not perfect a step in a good direction, if us non-consumptive wildlife enjoyers really will step up and purchase a stamp in droves. This was done in another state I once resided in and the benefit was that it clearly told that state's version of MTFWP, that yes there are plenty of people who view wildlife as free-living individuals, that we enjoy alive and thriving, not dead mercilessly in traps, hunting, whatnot. It is not perfect and although I bristle at ranchers getting special compensations, I also know that if it keeps them and I would hope so, from SSB, shoot, shovel and bury as they put it and perceive troublesome wildlife, well it is a compromise. FYI, I am the guardian of some farm animals, I have the same right to speak as the ranchers, as my farm animals always can be at-risk of harm from wildlife entering our MT property. And, trust me, if one of the farm animals on my land were killed by a wild animal, it would break my heart, as each individual farm animal is precious to me. I will see no benefit at all financially from this stamp, I would never out it if my farm animal was killed by wildlife, as I know the state would descend and kill of the pesty wild animal, which is what they are oh so good at. I choose to live in peace with wildlife and know we are intruding upon their lands, not the other way around. So, any form of $$ help as let's face it MTFWP is about money and funding, let's have our say to help wildlife. "

 

[Apparition]

25, do you have a link for the article?

 

[25contender]

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/zstrong/montana_proposes_wolf_conserva.html

 

[Topgun 30-06]

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/zstrong/montana_proposes_wolf_conserva.html

So what was the purpose of posting up those comments left by nut cases that read that blog from the NRDC staffer for that nut case pro wolf organization? Did you expect anyone other than nuts that belong to that organization and read all their propaganda to come on and make any negative comments? If they think they will gain more control by just buying individual stamps I think they are making a big mistake. IMHO individual people buying a stamp if the proposal goes through will have no more say if they're a wolf lover than if they're anti wolf. If they want to perpetuate the pro wolf thing it would seem they would all stick together and increase the numbers in their organizations, rather than think that buying individual stamps will get them more clout at the table. That's my take on it and the main thing to remember is that the individual states, although they have control over wolf numbers now, still have to keep them up to the minimum agreed upon number and packs to keep them from being relisted. IMHO the states will not be stupid enough to let numbers fall below those minimums and risk having them relisted by the Feds and, thus, lose complete control of them again. That's my take on it and time will tell as to how the individual states will deal with those nuts who don't want any controls or minimum numbers of anything. The big problem is that the vast majority of these wackos live in big cities and wouldn't know a wolf from an elk and yet want to control all aspects of everyone's lives. It, IMHO is the sign of the times in the way our country is being taken over by the Libs.

 

[25contender]

The purpose is to show that there are those that feel it is a way to get a foot in the door when non hunters or anti groups get involved by pumping their own dollars into a program like this. This isn't the only article or blog like this with similar comments. I know about the minimum numbers and that is not a issue for me. I guess we will have to re visit this in a few years if the proposal goes through. for now we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

The purpose is to show that there are those that feel it is a way to get a foot in the door when non hunters or anti groups get involved by pumping their own dollars into a program like this. This isn't the only article or blog like this with similar comments. I know about the minimum numbers and that is not a issue for me. I guess we will have to re visit this in a few years if the proposal goes through. for now we will have to agree to disagree.

I could see your point if hundreds of thousands of them bought the proposed stamp and then joined together in some kind of collective gathering saying they have x amount of dollars involved in contributions and want a say in things. The way the stamp is proposed would seem to be a way to keep a certain element like that out of gaining control and pressing their stance on things. I have read other comments on different sites and all I can say is the majority are nut cases that don't have a clue as to proper game management or life in general when you come right down to it. These people are so biased and uniformed about proper management that it's ridiculous. Like you said, it will take some time to see where this goes, but you can bet that whether the stamp is approved or not that these wackos will continue the attack on hunting, gun ownership, and anything else to try and control others that are thousands of miles from where they live.

 

[Apparition]

I could see your point if hundreds of thousands of them bought the proposed stamp and then joined together in some kind of collective gathering saying they have x amount of dollars involved in contributions and want a say in things.

Thats exactly what they plan to do.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Thats exactly what they plan to do.

And how do you know that? Are you a clairvoyant?

 

[Musket Man]

And how do you know that? Are you a clairvoyant?

Because that are wolfaboos and they will do anything they think might get them more control over FWP and stop us "sick blood thirsty trophy hunters from murdering wildlife because we enjoy killing". They are having some big gathering by north Yellowstone to promote non hunters having a say in wildlife management. The day non hunters start funding wild game in FPW will be a bad day as I see it.

 

[In God We Trust]

I am sure there are enough fringe lunatic animal rights people to buy "hundreds of thousands" of wolf stamps. They have forums dedicated to anti hunting topics. Many of these uninformed morons will buy these stamps from out of state to support the "cause". These people are just as dedicated as we are so don't mistake stupidity for lack of effort.
I would rather continue to support wildlife without their money, we have been doing it for over a century already. I agree that if you let them help fund the system they will have a larger audience within the system.

 

[Musket Man]

I would rather continue to support wildlife without their money, we have been doing it for over a century already.

I agree 100% but the problem is tag sales are way down in some states due to wolves, price increases, and lack of hunting opportunity and these states are desperate to balance their budget any way they can.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

MM just hit on some of the problems. Are you guys ready to pay a lot more for your licenses and other fees to make up for the budget problems Montana has and that other states also are experiencing? It would appear that's the one thing the antis have over us because they sink millions into their causes while we whine about our game departments wanting to raise tag fees a few bucks to make ends meet. IMHO we are our own worst enemy because we talk the talk and don't walk the walk. Montana raised NR fees and now can't sell all their tags while the resident fees are so low as to be ridiculous. Wyoming where I hunt every year can't even get a small increase passed even though resident fees are also ridiculously low like Montana. Somebody has to pay to keep all of our G&F departments running and if we don't do it ourselves we leave things wide open for others to step in and fill the void.

 

[Musket Man]

They cant sell the tags because 1)they are to high, and 2) they have alot less to offer now. Idaho has lost money every year since they raised their prices. I believe MT has too. Im not paying $600 for a general deer tag when deer numbers are way down. At about $600 for the deer elk combo like it used to be I would be there every other year or so even if there were less deer and elk. There is a limit to what we will pay and right now I feel my money is much better spent in states other then Montana. They have put themselves in this position so I dont really feel bad for them.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

They cant sell the tags because 1)they are to high, and 2) they have alot less to offer now. Idaho has lost money every year since they raised their prices. I believe MT has too. Im not paying $600 for a general deer tag when deer numbers are way down. At about $600 for the deer elk combo like it used to be I would be there every other year or so even if there were less deer and elk. There is a limit to what we will pay and right now I feel my money is much better spent in states other then Montana. They have put themselves in this position so I dont really feel bad for them.

Then don't complain when others step in that you don't like and take up the slack! It's reallly that simple. We either pay the price it takes to run the Fish & Game Departments or take the risk that others will and their interests differ greatly from ours.

 

[Musket Man]

Then don't complain when others step in that you don't like and take up the slack! It's reallly that simple. We either pay the price it takes to run the Fish & Game Departments or take the risk that others will and their interests differ greatly from ours.

Negative TG! FPW has been selling us out for years and is 1/2 way in bed with the antis already. They should have listened to hunters years ago instead of sitting on the fence and letting our hunting go to #$*#. I went to 1 of the last court hearings before the wolves were delisted and it took me over a 1/2 hour of listening to it to figure out what side was what. That really tells you alot right there and who they have been fighting for or not all along!

 

[Alabama]

Then don't complain when others step in that you don't like and take up the slack! It's reallly that simple. We either pay the price it takes to run the Fish & Game Departments or take the risk that others will and their interests differ greatly from ours.

You can't fund a whole damn state on 10% of the hunters Topgun! They want NR to fund the whole thing. There is a breaking point where people can't afford it. For a non-resident to hunt deer it cost him/her 36.25 times as much as a resident. I don't care that it is a "combination" license that let's you fish or hunt upland game. That's like the cable and satellite providers making you buy a package where you only watch 10% of the channels. It's a rip-off making you pay for something you don't use. For elk it gets even better: it's 41.3 times more than a resident. I'm not bashing any Montana residents just the thinking of the people in charge. How can there not be a shortage of money with so few paying any considerable amount?

 

[Againstthewind]

http://wyofile.com/geoffrey/its-going-to-cost-more-to-hunt-fish-in-wyoming/

I know its not Montana, but I thought it was a good article about some of the money issues.

 

[Musket Man]

MT's tag sales problem started when they did away with the outfitter tags and raised the NR price so they would make the same money. The only problem was alot of NR's, myself included, thought it was to high and stopped applying.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I don't disagree that Montana NR prices suck more than all the other states. I also don't agree with the disparity of fees between residents and NRs in all the states and have stated such. Montana is probably the worst and I again agree that the way they make you buy things you don't need or want sucks. The other states all have their little gimmicks with PP fees, having to buy a hunting license that's nonrefundable just to apply for a tag with a snowballs chance in he** that you'll be able to draw it, etc. For sure there is no way that the states are going to be able to ride on the backs of NRs if they don't have something to offer that's worth the price that people are willing to pay. Idaho and Montana have found that out and I'm sure other state's G&F people are watching and wondering how to bail themselves out before they go in the red. The huge disparity between residents and NR fees should have never started in the first place, especially when a NR is going to hunt on Federal lands. Wyoming couldn't get even a very small license increase passed for residents. Legislators even nixed the NR fee increase that was in a separate Bill that just covered NRs. What I'm saying is that residents of each state are going to have to be the first to pony up and pay higher fees to bring the disparity down between themselves and NRs or find other ways to help fund their departments. That could be by a small tax from hotel rooms, food establishments, fuel purchases, or maybe even a fee for bird watchers, photographers, bikers, hikers, and what have you that are nonconsumptive users of the same land we are paying to hunt on. It appears that this wolf stamp proposal is the first step in helping to pay for game management other than by strictly hunting and fishing licenes fees. IMHO a big thing that has really doomed the game departments is the fact that way too much politics has now found it's way into how they are run and they are now more of a "people" manager than a "game" manager. When there is this kind of turmoil in the rank and file like there is amongst all the hunters nowadays it leaves us ripe for the antis to strengthen their attack against us. Something needs to happen soon and to think that we will be in control of our own destiny any longer in this day and age IMHO isn't going to happen. Hunting as we know it is going down the drain with a huge decrease in hunting access leading the way and sooner or later only the rich will be hunting just like in many areas of Europe.