Cheating the system

[kidoggy]

THERE will always be those that cheat ,no matter what the activity may be .
I take pride in knowing I don't have to.


thankfully , Idaho did not go the way of preference points. we are luck of the draw. nearly impossible to draw some units but some great units are fairly easy also. big antlers can be had to those who have ability to make it happen.

 

[Maxhunter]

This is wrong! They should make them hunt, unless they have a legit medical condition that would prevent them from hunting. If it's true they did in fact cheat the system like stated they should be stripped of there points and fined.

People always find ways to cheat everything now days!

 

[RJW]

Twice this week I?ve heard about this happening.

It seems every time we turn our heads there is more crap like this going on with hunting. It just chaps my butt.

In states like AZ and NV where prference points are in use and party tags are allowed guys are putting in for party tags and cheating the system and making a lot of money doing so.
A guy with say 15 points will put in for a party tag with a guy that has 3 points. The guy with 15 has max points and will split his points with the guy that only has 3. When they draw the tags the guy with 15 points turns his tag in and keeps his points while the guy with 3 gets to hunt a unit he would have had to wait for max points to draw.
I?ve heard the guy with max points can charge the other guy $1000.00 for this!

This just blows my mind that this kind of crap is happening. I know that NDOW is aware of this happening and is going to block this in some way very soon but not sure about the other states. I also assume this has been going on for years but this is the first I?ve heard of it. I do know for sure of a guide in Nv that is doing this but he is a shady guy and has a bad reputation.



Please keep your comments respectful to everyone as I know these subjects can get our blood boiling as it does me too.


What?s your thoughts?[/

if you dont like the system, change the system is my first thought.

 

[480/277]

For every new computer program there comes a new virus.
As Kidoggy posted there will always be some who angle the system.

 

[grizzly]

Utah changed it so the only way an applicant on a Party Application can keep his/her points is if every tag holder turns their tag back in. Simple enough fix... keeps Grandma from using her max points to draw tags for grandkids every year.

 

[Alabama]

Both our proposals have flaws. In yours , you punish the other tag holder w/o a medical condition. The bottom line is you can not legislate for the exceptions.

Easy solution: Don't apply as a party unless you are willing to turn in your tag if somebody else does. Or the one that can't go burns his/her points without hunting. Nobody is forcing you to apply as a party.

If they did this the problem would go away. You better know who you are applying with and trust them.

 

[Tim McCoy]

Utah changed it so the only way an applicant on a Party Application can keep his/her points is if every tag holder turns their tag back in. Simple enough fix... keeps Grandma from using her max points to draw tags for grandkids every year.

Add a verifiable medical condition exception, one time, and I'm in. WY has a good process I used for an individual tag a few years back.

 

[480/277]

Easy solution: Don't apply as a party unless you are willing to turn in your tag if somebody else does. Or the one that can't go burns his/her points without hunting. Nobody is forcing you to apply as a party.

If they did this the problem would go away. You better know who you are applying with and trust them.

I agree. If you read my first post, that was my position. You draw the tag, you hunt.

 

[Alabama]

I agree. If you read my first post, that was my position. You draw the tag, you hunt.

It wasn't an attack on you. I don't agree that we should make people hunt if they draw the tag. If the tags are re-issued with the next in line, what does it matter if people turn them back in? It would make my day to receive a turned in elk tag or even better a desert sheep tag in Nevada! They should just stipulate for party apps it's an all tags deal: i.e. all are turned in or none are turned in. I think that would solve the problem.

 

[480/277]

I was just clarifying.
There is no perfect system. That's why I said you can not legislate based on exceptions. And no system that can't be cheated.
And once you start exceptions there is always someone that will say
"Well what about this circumstance "...
There is always a hardship, real and not. At some point you draw the line. Mine starts at the start.

 

[kidoggy]

Add a verifiable medical condition exception, one time, and I'm in. WY has a good process I used for an individual tag a few years back.

sounds like a reasonable idea ,I could live with. things happen to everyone but I have noticed that things tend to happen over an over an over again to the same people.

 

[480/277]

I have average an operation per year, for the last ten. Just sayin'
And I still say, you draw, you hunt or burn the tag in your pocket.

 

[kidoggy]

I have average an operation per year, for the last ten. Just sayin'
And I still say, you draw, you hunt or burn the tag in your pocket.

first ,I meant no disrespect by my comment and hope you took none. the intent of it was to convey ,it is always the same folks who cheat ,over and over. not for a second did I intend to dis those with problems.


I could live with your plan also. BUT the one time exception seems a reasonable compromise to me.not perfect but that is the defining results of compromise.

it is obvious you couldn't give the same person a break year after year.or folks would take advantage as they are now doing.

and if you give them the one time break, there will still be those who use it to cheat instead of how it was meant to be used .

but sooner or later , most hunters are going to face a situation , where they simply cannot do it. just a fact of life.
we all know a crook is a crook is a crook but I am willing to give honest folks a break and not penalize them for what others might do.

we are becoming a society that desires to penalize everyone ,for the misdeeds of a few and that I can not condone.

 

[JimP]

I have seen quite a few people turn in their tags just for the reason that they didn't see the type of animal that they wanted to shoot while scouting.

There are a few other reasons that someone should be able to return their tags besides medical reasons. How about someone in the National Guard or active military that has their orders changed or others that have something happen that is out of their control?

I know on medical operations you can work around them, I know that I did and I hunted every year that I had one, now if it it s emergency or out of your control then by all means turn the tag back in.

There should also be a time limit to turn the tags in. Lest say no less than a month before the season. I know hunters that have been called by the DOW a day or two before a season starts to see if they would like a tag that someone has turned back in. Quite often they will take it if they know the area and know what to expect in it but others get on a forum and start asking questions like "where should I go and what should I expect?"

In this day of limited tags in just about all the states that you have to put into the draw for there needs to be some checks and balances put into place just so that grandpa with the 20 points can't keep putting in year after year with others and then turning their tag back in just to do it again the next year.

 

[BuzzH]

Add a verifiable medical condition exception, one time, and I'm in. WY has a good process I used for an individual tag a few years back.

That bill took a fair amount of work...but was worth it I think. Pretty tight legislation.

Without the amendment that I suggested, it would have died in committee.

Nothing wrong with having a way to turn a tag back in for a valid reason, before the season starts, but there still has to be side-boards or people will abuse it. Like I said, you have to think about the lowest common denominator when you pass legislation, sad, but just the way it is...people suck.

The guy that pushed the idea/bill in WY wanted much less stringent reasons to turn a tag in, and that wasn't going to happen. I had convinced enough committee members to kill it in both the House and Senate side if the amendment wasn't adopted.

 

[480/277]

Kidoggy absolutely non taken . We see human nature the same as well as the situation.
My point was there will always be someone else looking for an exception. Some legit some deceitful.

 

[Timberstalker]

You draw the tag, you go hunt. No more turning tags in , that problem fixed.

That?s how it is in Oregon. People will still pay for the person to join in but the high points do drop out of the system.

I guess they could delete party hunt apps, that would fix it.

 

[dustin ray]

Twice this week I?ve heard about this happening.

It seems every time we turn our heads there is more crap like this going on with hunting. It just chaps my butt.

In states like AZ and NV where prference points are in use and party tags are allowed guys are putting in for party tags and cheating the system and making a lot of money doing so.
A guy with say 15 points will put in for a party tag with a guy that has 3 points. The guy with 15 has max points and will split his points with the guy that only has 3. When they draw the tags the guy with 15 points turns his tag in and keeps his points while the guy with 3 gets to hunt a unit he would have had to wait for max points to draw.
I?ve heard the guy with max points can charge the other guy $1000.00 for this!



This just blows my mind that this kind of crap is happening. I know that NDOW is aware of this happening and is going to block this in some way very soon but not sure about the other states. I also assume this has been going on for years but this is the first I?ve heard of it. I do know for sure of a guide in Nv that is doing this but he is a shady guy and has a bad reputation.




Please keep your comments respectful to everyone as I know these subjects can get our blood boiling as it does me too.


What?s your thoughts?

There are some incorrect statements
NV and AZ do not have preference points or max points
if a tag requires 15 points to draw the guy selling his points needs 30 points to split . 15 points only get you 7.5 points when split

Thoughts
if you have NR 15 points and you charge $1000.00 to do this wheres the profit take AZ lic $160 elk tag $650 total $810.00 now if your a res total cost is $185 making $815

The guy doing this is not gaining points or hunting but if he is a guide he has someone to guide
how many guys are doing this and is it affecting you and i from drawing a tag ?

makes you think of the possibilities a family member has 15 points but can no longer hunt and you like to hunt a unit that requires 6 points you could hunt there every year if you don't mind paying double

 

[Tim McCoy]

I have average an operation per year, for the last ten. Just sayin'
And I still say, you draw, you hunt or burn the tag in your pocket.

There are some surgeries that are so immediate in need and invasive, you'd not be able to hunt. In my case, it was a life threatning complication after surgery, leading to a second surgery. Nearly killed me. I'll never regain 100% function in either leg. I was happy to have the medical condition option, and am 100% in support of that option for Doctor verified very serious situations. For scoping out a knee, where optional, similar minor stuff, etc, not so much.

 

[480/277]

One minute I was cleaning my boat to go walleye fishing, the next I'm on lifestar after flat lining. I'm familiar with serious medical situations. And I would still be ok with my idea or yours. The laws aren't for the honest guys.