Berger bullets

[Gr8bawana]

On my brother's elk hunt this year I had the chance to see firsthand performance of Berger Hunting VLD bullets or better yet lack of performance. The bullet was a 190 grain 30-06.
The first shot to hit the bull was from a quarteing to angle and hit just behind the shoulder. From the actions of the bull afterwards and then when we opened him up it was obvious he was gut shot. He just laid down and you could tell he was sick, some cows came and went and he never paid any attention to them.
The bullet penetrated and literally exploded. While cleaning him out we were poked by tiny pieces of bullet which were all through the body cavity. Some of the pieces we found were maybe 1/16" none bigger than 1/4".
The second shot to hit was broadside at 355 yards in the chest and only penetrated about half way through requiring a finishing shot.
I know that a lot of people are in love with these bullets because they are very accurate and that's probably why my bro got talked into using them by his buddy who is a handloader.
As far as myself and my brother are concerned they are garbage, but that is only our opinion.

 

[rjroberts15]

Thank you for the info.
I've never used the bergers, but have thought about it for my 7mm.

 

[DRUSS]

I have some bergers that shoot great, but have mostly hunted with Remington core lokts and nosler. But I live in Oregon and try to support local business too so kind of biased maybe. But have killed a couple deer and antelope with bergers. Only one elk with them

 

[theleo91386]

They are for the guys that want the animal to take all the energy. They never have made pretty mushrooms.

 

[xtreme]

The Bergers have preformed for me exactly as advertised. Remington core-lokts kill best of all imo. I have killed lots of game with the Bergers. Dead right there, besides I like shooting them. Large black bear, not a step.

 

[Slugz]

Any way to get the numbers on the handload? I'd be interested to do a little math on it. I'm guessing 2700 or so FPS out of the barrel and 25" low at 400 yards?

 

[droptine]

This is interesting. Bergers is what I'm shooting this year. 185's over 63 grains of rl 17 out of my 300 wsm. Muzzle velocity 2885.
Hopefully I'll get a chance to see how they perform this weekend.

 

[mcseal2]

It sounds like the Berger did what it was designed to do, it's just not what you wanted to see happen. This is copied from Berger's website

" All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD or Hybrid designs. These designs incorporate a sharp nose and slightly thinner jacket that allows the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3” before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13” to 15” long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don’t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Our bullets don’t poke through like an arrow (high weight retention, deep penetration bullets) but instead dump their energy where it is most effective."

The extreme fragmentation and shallow penetration is what they do. I've used them on deer and antelope and they drop them fast just as they are advertised to do. I tested their 87gr VLD from a 243 when they were looking for field testers and my only complaint was that they didn't drop coyotes quickly because they penetrated to far before expansion began and didn't do enough internal damage before exiting. I saw that on coyotes past 175yds that were broadside on 4 occasions. I use them in my 264 win mag for all my flatter country deer and antelope hunting where rifle weight isn't a huge deal. I have never seen one fail to do as advertised but still have some reservations about how they perform, small entrance wound and no exit. I use Nosler Accubonds in all my other big game rifles and have as much confidence in them as I can in any bullet. I have a new 25-06 that likes Barnes TTSX bullets so I'll try those also during our antlerless season. I like exit wounds.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

I guess I'm old school, yeah I'm old too, but I like Sierra Game Kings and Nosler Partition bullets. I've shot them successfully for over 50 years on hundreds of animals. I like the traditional mushroomed bullet that retains 60 to 80% of it's weight after it's done the job.
I know Berger touts their long range abilities, but I killed deer and antelope out to almost 500 yards and dead is dead!

 

[Gr8bawana]

I guess I'm old school, yeah I'm old too, but I like Sierra Game Kings and Nosler Partition bullets. I've shot them successfully for over 50 years on hundreds of animals. I like the traditional mushroomed bullet that retains 60 to 80% of it's weight after it's done the job.
I know Berger touts their long range abilities, but I killed deer and antelope out to almost 500 yards and dead is dead!

I'm with you, I also want a bullet to hold together and mushroom and perhaps leave an exit wound. I have used Core-Lokt bullets successfully since forever and I know it's tough to beat a plain old fashioned Nosler Partition.

 

[Tim McCoy]

Am probably wrong or at least seriously misguided, but here's my take. Odds are the shooter simply missed the mark or did not know where the first shot should have gone. Ergo, the main 3 rules to kill game, are, in order, placement, placement, and placement.

If the first shot is a wounding shot, per OP, in the gut, the bullet is not likely the main issue. Quartering to, even with a rifle, can be problematic. If you want to take marginal angle shots, use a very tough bullet and know the quarry's anatomy. I'm very happy u 2 recovered the critter.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Am probably wrong or at least seriously misguided, but here's my take. Odds are the shooter simply missed the mark or did not know where the first shot should have gone. Ergo, the main 3 rules to kill game, are, in order, placement, placement, and placement.

If the first shot is a wounding shot, per OP, in the gut, the bullet is not likely the main issue. Quartering to, even with a rifle, can be problematic. If you want to take marginal angle shots, use a very tough bullet and know the quarry's anatomy. I'm very happy u 2 recovered the critter.

You are correct in that my bro is not the best shot in the world and I personally would have waited for the bull to turn even further. Although I will say that from the angle of where the first shot hit a bullet that did not fragment would not even have come close the stomach. Needless to say he will not be using those bullets again.

 

[Winchester]

I guess I'm old school, yeah I'm old too, but I like Sierra Game Kings and Nosler Partition bullets. I've shot them successfully for over 50 years on hundreds of animals. I like the traditional mushroomed bullet that retains 60 to 80% of it's weight after it's done the job.
I know Berger touts their long range abilities, but I killed deer and antelope out to almost 500 yards and dead is dead!

I agree CC. I've been using those bullets for a long time (Sierra Game Kings and Nosler Partition bullets). It's tough to beat the Noslers.

 

[stevevan]

+ three on the noslers, both partition and accubond!

 

[mcseal2]

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the Partition, I have found it easier to get accuracy from the Accubond at longer ranges. I have tried the Accubond harder and in more rifles, so that's probably part of it. From my experience the Partition penetrates further than the Accubond because it isn't bonded. That lets more of the front of the bullet come apart as shrapnel and leaves a smaller mushroom to penetrate the animal. The Accubond mushrooms very quickly and keeps a large frontal diameter, therefore its shoving a larger mushroom through the animal. That larger surface area doesn't penetrate as far but makes a larger wound channel.

Either one put in the right place does one heck of a job, and their performance is pretty darn similar. I'm just one of those people that always like to see exactly what the bullet did on the way through while butchering a critter.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

The only thing I don't like about Partitions is they are not made with a boattail in 180gr .30 cal.

 

[mcseal2]

The only thing I don't like about Partitions is they are not made with a boattail in 180gr .30 cal.

Yeah, shape one as sleek as a Gameking and I'd be shooting them in more guns!

 

[Theist]

I've killed three deer ranging from 250 to 680 and none have taken a step. That's with 140 grains 6.5x284. All three with Vld hinting going about 2750 at the muzzle. High shoulder is where I shoot and it never fails with those bullets. My father killed one at 593 this year quartering away right behind ribs and was in pelt by far shoulder. 168 grain. 7mm stw. Not a step. We thought we missed [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]. Weighed the bullet at 147 grains. I'm not complaining yet. I have had the same experience with elk. 760yards. 180 grain 300 ultra high shoulder not a step. My suggestion is narrow down you kill zone and it will kill whatever you ask of it. Just don't ask for an exit wound.


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[maninthemaze]

Shot a pronghorn last week that was quartering towards me bedded down. Bullet entered at the left shoulder/neck area and exited out the right rear hind quarter. I guess it never opened or mushroomed. The goat never got up, but I was disappointed in the performance. I was expecting massive fragmentation at the heart area. In the picture, you can see the exit wound.

It was a 180gr Berger Hunting VLD shot out of my 7wsm at 2900fps. The goat was at 482 yards.

I really hope this isn't normal.

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[Tim McCoy]

I've heard of that issue with Bergers a number of times. That and lack of penetration on slightly quartering shots seems the two biggest issues I hear about with them. Most love them, but I hear enough about issues that I remain skeptical. I'm wondering what your estimated impact velocity would have been, 2200 fps ish?; and what that bullets minimum impact velocity requirement is? May be worth checking and step down in weight to keep velocity up if needed. But if you were within the designed velocity window, the bullet had a problem. Luckily you recovered the game, makes one wonder how that would have worked out on a big bull.

Am still going to try them on paper, and maybe on antelope or smaller deer. But I prefer purpose built hunting bullets designed to expand and penetrate, especially on anything much over 200 lbs.