Bear Gun?

[THelms]

This video shows exactly how limited bear spray can be! That said, I had an interesting conversation with a Wyoming G&F Biologist a couple weeks back. He and a buddy got attacked by a grizz last fall while elk hunting. They were in thick willows, just crossing through them, and trying to be sneaky. The bear was sleeping in them and was on them so fast there was ZERO time to react. He told me he had his spray in his hand and had no chance at deploying it! He figured the only thing that saved him was that he had a buddy with him and this confused the bear and it ran off just before it knocked him down. Said it was the most chaotic moment of his life! Bottom line, if you need to truly stop a bear your best options are a rifle or a shotgun and a cool head. Even then the outcome is not certain.

 

[memtb]

This video shows exactly how limited bear spray can be! That said, I had an interesting conversation with a Wyoming G&F Biologist a couple weeks back. He and a buddy got attacked by a grizz last fall while elk hunting. They were in thick willows, just crossing through them, and trying to be sneaky. The bear was sleeping in them and was on them so fast there was ZERO time to react. He told me he had his spray in his hand and had no chance at deploying it! He figured the only thing that saved him was that he had a buddy with him and this confused the bear and it ran off just before it knocked him down. Said it was the most chaotic moment of his life! Bottom line, if you need to truly stop a bear your best options are a rifle or a shotgun and a cool head. Even then the outcome is not certain.

This is exactly the situation that many fail to consider! I see many posts concerning firearms for bear protection, many choosing a semi-auto, believing the fallacy they can get off many rounds. When in reality, unless you actually have the firearm in hand you may not get “any” shots off. If you have time to use those extra rounds....you may have a difficult time defending yourself in court. One or two well placed shots with heavy bullets from a big- bore revolver.....trump the 6 or 8 rounds still in the semi-auto magazine!

In any close range, suprise attack....you better have the firearm or pepper spray in hand, as you probably will not have time to deploy it otherwise! memtb

 

[THelms]

In high school, I worked at Cy's Sporting Goods on Kodiak. As Cy would say, "Better file the front sight of your 44 mag, so it hurts less when the the bear shoves it up your a**". So naturally I bought a 454 and carried that brick for a lot of years. After moving to WY and having a few run ins with the much smaller more aggressive bears here, I switched to a Springfield XDm in 10mm and have been happy with it.

Work recently paided for us to take the Tactic "Surviving the griz" course in Bozeman that Chris Forrest puts on. I will say after that course I will always have a pistol on my chest when bowhunting. If you have never seen bear spray sprayed into a 5-10MPH head wind it will open you eyes. It made it maybe 15 feet...maybe. At that point you are only shortening the time you will be chewed on because that bear is gona hit you either way.

Love that store! Bought my first Alaska fishing licenses and pair of Xtra Tuff's there!

 

[AKaviator]

I'm certainly no expert on the matter. I've only killed 2 grizzlies in my life, but with 45 straight years of living, hunting and photographing wildlife in Alaska, I've had at least my fair share of bear encounters. (And shopping trips to Cy's in Kodiak). I lived in Kodiak 1987-1991. Hunted there since 1980.

In Alaska, I believe a large percentage of the bears shot in defense of "life or property", did not need to be shot. It's really pretty rare that a bear encounter is of the close range, full-on charge that comes without warning. In fact, most bears really don't demonstrate aggressiveness at all.
The one that did charge hard at me did so because I was sitting beside a creek, fleshing a wolf hide that I had just shot. I'm sure the bear thought I was an injured wolf and didn't want me to get away. It met the working end of my .375 H&H at 30 yards.

The ones I've had try to intimidate me generally pressed forward towards me with head down but laser focused. They don't always come on a straight line towards you and will sit and watch you briefly. I've had them stomp with their front feet and huff at me or pop their jaws and drool.

I have not yet encountered a bear that was so close and so aggressive that I haven't had time to unsling a rifle and be ready. When not packing my rifle, my 10mm is in a chest holster and fast to draw as is my bear spray. I believe the spray will be effective most of the time in the encounters that I'VE had. But, I always want to be armed with a gun. But my untrained opinion is that 95 percent of bears don't want any part of us, about 4 percent will try to intimidate us and 1 percent will actually try to kill us.

I'm sure that we are all in more danger from drunk driver's or driver's texting than actually being attacked, let alone killed, by a bear.

 

[memtb]

AKaviator, around these parts, if you shoot a grizzly @ 30 yards.....there will be some serious explaining to do! Unless you provide some serious bodily damage to the investigating officers! The Yellowstone Ecosystem Grizzlies have far more rights than we do! memtb

 

[tim]

I have been bluff charged by a sow grizz with cubs, scary situation.
with that said, i have drawn on a "teenage" black bear, The entire time i wish i had bear spray and not my pistol. I did not want to have to shoot, i wanted to go rafting on a multi day trip. If i had spray, i could have had the encounter over and done in seconds, not the minutes the situation ended up being, I did get the bear out of there with out shooting it, but i do believe both(gun, spray) have the advantages and disadvantages.
lethal means, mean law enforcement investigation. But you really need to shoot off a bear spray can to see you only have feet to work with, not yards.

 

[tim]

akaviator
I heard a rumor craig medred went blind. any truth to that?
I did first aid on him, when he got attacked by a sow with cubs out of cooper landing in the ealy 90's.

 

[mcseal2]

I pack a 10mm in grizzly country. I have 3 of them now, a Sig 220, Sig Tacops 1911, and a Glock 20. The Glock and 1911 both needed a trip to the gunsmith to be reliable with hardcast ammo. All functioned perfectly with all the 180gr FMJ range ammo, or 180gr JHP ammo I tried. It was just the hotter ammo with the wider flat nose bullets that created problems. I'd recommend testing any semi-auto with several boxes of the exact ammo you plan to use before carrying it.

I tried the Underwood Extreme Penetrator ammo also in the Glock. It functioned well but hit 4-5" high at 25 yards. Another reason to test any ammo you plan to carry.

I tried a couple 44 mags before going to 10mm. The larger Ruger Redhawk was large framed enough it was hard for me to draw and reach the hammer at the same time. Growing up shooting bricks of ammo through a Single Six, I have a lot of muscle memory built up to cock the hammer as I draw a revolver. I then tried a S&W 69. It was nice to carry but recoil was severe enough with even the reduced recoil 255gr Hardcast Buffalo Bore ammo I was flinching shooting it. I like to practice a lot with my bear pistol before a trip, and have found 357 or 10mm to be about the limit of what I shoot well.

The decision to go 10mm instead of using one of my 357's was largely due to the light rail and holster availability. Razco makes chest holsters that fit the guns with a TLR-1 Streamlight on them. It's pretty handy when leaving the tent at night to have a handgun and light in one package. Any time I'd choose my handgun over my rifle it's likely dark or I'm using trekking poles and my rifle is strapped to my pack.

I have never tried bear spray and probably won't. When I'm in big bear country, I'm likely in Alaska. Wind is usually blowing hard in AK it seems like and has a lot less effect on a handgun than spray. Also flying in weight allowances are limited, and a handgun is more multi-use than spray. If my rifle fails I can still hunt with a handgun.

I tend to shoot a single action handgun better than a striker fired. If I ever need or want to take game or fox with my handgun I can hit smaller targets further with the SAO guns. For that reason I like the SIgs better than the Glock. There are disadvantages to them. Carrying one with the safety on and hammer back creates a possibility of something getting between the hammer and firing pin going through brush. They are also heavier than the Glock. For me though, I shoot them enough better I'll still pack them. My usual carry gun is a Sig 938, and my favorite to shoot is a Sig 226 SAO with a 22LR or 9mm conversion installed. I shoot the SAO pistols far more often than a striker fired and am not worried about remembering the safety.

Outside grizzly country I only carry a handgun if I won't have a long gun. Then it's usually a S&W 386XL Hunter or S&W 60 in 357 with hardcast loads.

Anyway, there are some ideas and my reasoning behind them. I have only drawn a pistol due to a bear once, and that was when a black bear cub ran across a trail right by us at dusk in Wyoming. I never saw the sow but we heard her as we vacated the area. I'm no expert.

 

[Kodiak]

In Alaska, I believe a large percentage of the bears shot in defense of "life or property", did not need to be shot. It's really pretty rare that a bear encounter is of the close range, full-on charge that comes without warning. In fact, most bears really don't demonstrate aggressiveness at all.
The one that did charge hard at me did so because I was sitting beside a creek, fleshing a wolf hide that I had just shot. I'm sure the bear thought I was an injured wolf and didn't want me to get away. It met the working end of my .375 H&H at 30 yards.

I think there is a happy medium somewhere between how Wyoming handles bears and how Alaska handles bears. I grew up trapping and hunting on Kodiak and have a handful of encounters with bears but never anything that was really sketchy. I never carried spray or a handgun until I was in my 20s(I used to do a lot of dumb things). A large part of that in my opinion is that the problem bears get killed. On the road system in Kodiak problem bears were killed not relocated.


I have lived in NW Wyoming for 6 years now and had way more scary encounters with bears here than I ever did growing up. Here bears are trapped and relocated and never hunted. There is no reason for them to fear people like in AK. I also think the massive amounts of food the bears in AK makes them less aggressive than here.

 

[AKaviator]

akaviator
I heard a rumor craig medred went blind. any truth to that?
I did first aid on him, when he got attacked by a sow with cubs out of cooper landing in the ealy 90's.

I haven't heard that Tim. I remember that you were there for him when he was mauled. You probably saved him. I sure hope you heard wrong, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I don't know him personally.

 

[AKaviator]

I think there is a happy medium somewhere between how Wyoming handles bears and how Alaska handles bears. I grew up trapping and hunting on Kodiak and have a handful of encounters with bears but never anything that was really sketchy. I never carried spray or a handgun until I was in my 20s(I used to do a lot of dumb things). A large part of that in my opinion is that the problem bears get killed. On the road system in Kodiak problem bears were killed not relocated.


I have lived in NW Wyoming for 6 years now and had way more scary encounters with bears here than I ever did growing up. Here bears are trapped and relocated and never hunted. There is no reason for them to fear people like in AK. I also think the massive amounts of food the bears in AK makes them less aggressive than here.

I completely agree, especially with Kodiak and Alaska Peninsula bears. They're well fed and far less aggressive. No so much the interior and Arctic bears. When I lived in Coldfoot (above the arctic circle) the bears up there are more prone to be troublesome. There is no big salmon runs to keep them well fed. The bear I mention shooting was up there near Umiat. She never slowed down until the bullet struck her.

One little secret, especially with blacks bears, when they got trapped and "relocated" several times, the ride ended with a bullet! I'm not a fan of relocating troublesome bears.

 

[ShepDog]

Hunted many years in the Gravelly range of Montana archery. Always hunted in pairs. We would carry both spray and pistols. I carried a 45 auto with 230 grain solid lead pills. 1st clip had 10 and the second had 9. MAIN reason for the auto and not a larger caliber revolver was weight. Would rather carry water weight. My buddy carried a SW .44 mag with 4" barrel, again solid lead pills.
We had several encounters of which we never had to pull the triggers on either spray or pistol, never attacked. We always would reach for the spray first. We would practice drawing the spray and pistols. Getting oriented with how to draw the spray or gun, release the safetys and ready in seconds.
Ran into a sow with one cub at 70-80 yards in timber one morning. We saw each other about same time. She got up on hind feet and barked at us then turned and walked off with her cub. 30 seconds later she let out a bear yell that curled our hair. We did a 180 and backed out a there.
Bottom line on a bear gun in my opinion. Carry something as large a caliber you feel comfortable and can use effectivly. Also be able to outrun your partner.

 

[RICMIC]

I've solo camped & hunted in Wyoming griz country, and have yet to have an encounter with anything other than black bears. I always carry the rifle and bear spray, and practice deployment of the spray. I have been charged by black bears 3X here in the woods and wilderness of NE Minnesota. All were likely bluff charges, but if you do have a gun in your hand I doubt that many would wait to see if it was all just a bluff. I killed a bear at 10 feet or so when I was 17 using my .357 Ruger... my back was to the water and my younger brother was behind me.
The next encounter I was unarmed and just stood my ground ready to go toe to toe, but that bear stopped the charge at a distance close enough to smell his breath. The last one, I had a Gransforth Bruk "Hunter's Axe" in my hand. Again, the buff ended at very close range.
If you do rely on a handgun, then you need to be competent and confident using one, that takes a lot of practice that not many of us do enough of.

 

[THelms]

Lions, Tigers and Bears, Oh MY! I still hold that the most dangerous animals in the West are Moose, Horses and Bovines (both cattle and bison)... oh and people! Not necessarily in that order. Anymore I carry an easy to pack Sig P365 9mm... it goes just about everywhere I do, especially when I've got my family along, then mamma Helms is packing too.

This conversation has spurred a lot of talk in my circle as all of us are staunchly Pro-2A and enjoy our firearms for all their intended uses. That said, it's also made me appreciate the level of experience on this Forum and impressed upon me that knowing and understanding animal behavior and being prepared for any eventuality are critical aspects of enjoying the outdoors.