Arizona Super Bonus Points

Umpqua Hunter

Veteran member
May 26, 2011
3,576
88
59
North Umpqua, Oregon
AZGFD is floating an idea for "Super Bonus Points". It essentially boils down to this. For a few extra dollars a year ($15 or so) you can accrue an EXTRA bonus point for one specie. I understand that the money is to be used to educate the public about hunting which is a good thing. The good news ends there. The idea to generate the funding through "Super Bonus Points" is deeply flawed. For applicants who have justified spending $160 on a nonresident hunting license in order to accrue points for several species, this idea will now force you to instead choose one specie to focus on and essentially leave the others behind. The idea basically boils down to incentivizing applicants with less points to TAKE CUTS in the bonus point line for just a few dollars per year. It will most certainly accelerate point creep for all species as people start to go all in on the specie they will pursue. AZGFD will likely lose funding as as people bail out on species they no longer feel they can draw, or look to get out of the game all together. Please go to the AZGFD website and make your opinion known.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScVzp1I1vB0BUPghwIpkHqncWj2BPZahFkZ_CKielUtv7ofLg/viewform
 

Umpqua Hunter

Veteran member
May 26, 2011
3,576
88
59
North Umpqua, Oregon
My letter to AZGFD


Dear AZGFD,

I am a loyal nonresident applicant of 30+ years with AZGFD. I am NOT in support of the Super Bonus Point idea, specifically where extra points can be accrued towards ONE specie until drawn. This idea will certainly appeal to those with less points. Realize many who will voice support have already drawn tags with their bonus points and have enjoyed those hunts. Super Bonus Points will appeal most to those who want to TAKE CUTS in the bonus point line for just a mere few dollars a year. The concept is unfair at it's core. It disregards those like myself who have paid out in excess of $200/year (per applicant) for 10, 15 or even 25+ years for no other reason than to position themselves in the bonus point line to draw tags.

"BONUS POINT" BACKGROUND: During a 1986 hunt, my Nevada guide expressed an idea for a draw system that gave applicants increased draw odds after each unsuccessful year of applying. The idea made a lot of sense in that it did not restrict all the tags for those with the most points like a true preference point system does, but rather it gave those who had not drawn a better chance each year they were unsuccessful. Applicants would also be incentivized to participate in the draw each year. Two years later, in 1988, I drafted a letter and sent it to most of the western fish and game departments, including Arizona. In that letter, I described the concept and actually used the coined the term "BONUS POINT" to describe the idea. I received letters back from New Mexico, Idaho, Colorado, Nevada and Oregon. Three years later, in 1991, Arizona adopted the bonus point system. Nevada and Utah have adopted the system as well. The idea for Bonus Points conceived by my guide and one that I documented and provided to AZGFD has generated the department hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions.

As a nonresident of Arizona, I have accrued one less than max for sheep (29 points), one less than max for antelope (29 points) max deer points (22 points), and 20 points for elk, so I have been INVESTING in AZGFD's bonus point system for nearly 30 YEARS and am on the verge of enjoying the fruit of that long term investment. Since I don't hunt Arizona on years I don't draw, which has been all but one year in the past 27 years, the money invested in hunting license and application fees has been paid strictly towards future tag opportunities. I have even flown to Arizona for no other reason that to take Hunters Safety. If you were in my shoes, and had made an investment in the range of $7000 to accrue bonus points to hunt Arizona, which one of the four species would you choose to pursue with Super Bonus Points and which three would you leave behind?

If a "super bonus point" option is only allowed for ONE SPECIE and those points are retained until drawn, I will be forced to choose which of these four species to move forward on and which three to leave behind. It will DEVALUE a point system people have ALREADY INVESTED in. It will most deeply affect those who have invested the longest. I hope AZGFD sees the deep ethical, moral and legal problems with this.

This would not be the first time AZGFD has devalued points. With the recent change to nonresident tag allocation (5% cap in the bonus pass), the near "certainty" of drawing certain tags in my lifetime (13B AZ Strip rifle deer for example) has already vanished. That change has already devalued the investment of many long term nonresident applicants and has accelerated nonresident point creep. The new "super bonus point" (accrued for one specie) proposal would again further damage that investment for residents and nonresidents alike.

For me the problem compounds. As a divorced parent, I have been buying licenses and points for my children beginning 14 years ago to eventually create hunt opportunities and memories with them. I currently buy around 20 points each year for my six children and pay adult nonresident license fees for most of them with that investment currently being around $1100 a year. I have also been applying my wife for the past 9 years. Our family is on the verge of several high quality tags and hunt opportunities that we have ALREADY paid into for many years. The "super bonus point" concept threatens the investment by forcing us choose a single specie to move forward on.

Actually, I am not opposed to paying slightly more (say $10 per applicant per year) to help with AZGFD's funding through some method, but please make certain that any adopted plan does not DEVALUE THE INVESTMENT ALREADY MADE by your most LOYAL and LONG TERM customers.

Here is an example. Imagine if an investment company offered a retirement savings plan, and incentivized customers into that plan with certain future expectations. Then 20 or 30 years down the road, as people began to reach retirement and enjoy their investment, the company cut the benefits down to just a fraction of what was originally offered. The reason being....they had offered those benefits to other new investors for only a few dollars a year. That would not only be unethical, but illegal and even subject to litigation.

For the past 27 years AZGFD has had a bonus point system. The department has also provided the option to purchase bonus points in the past. The offering has implied that that those bonus points strengthens your chance to draw a tag. The Super Bonus Point idea now threatens to devalue 75% or so of the bonus points that all applicants have already accrued and invested in.

I entered AZGFD's bonus point offering with my eyes open to the investment I was making, and under the rules laid out by AZGFD. I ask that you not devalue that investment 28 years down the road.

Sincerely,

Jim
 

WapitiBob

Veteran member
Mar 1, 2011
1,384
53
Bend, Orygun
I like the idea, with the caveat that you can buy multiple species. One species a year will hose guys that have max points for multiple species.

Money is going to be generated, one way or another, and the push a few months ago was to sell auction tags, pushed by Pete Cimalarro (AZ-SFW).
 

Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
4
Oregon
My letter to AZGFD


Dear AZGFD,

I am a loyal nonresident applicant of 30+ years with AZGFD. I am NOT in support of the Super Bonus Point idea, specifically where extra points can be accrued towards ONE specie until drawn. This idea will certainly appeal to those with less points. Realize many who will voice support have already drawn tags with their bonus points and have enjoyed those hunts. Super Bonus Points will appeal most to those who want to TAKE CUTS in the bonus point line for just a mere few dollars a year. The concept is unfair at it's core. It disregards those like myself who have paid out in excess of $200/year (per applicant) for 10, 15 or even 25+ years for no other reason than to position themselves in the bonus point line to draw tags.

"BONUS POINT" BACKGROUND: During a 1986 hunt, my Nevada guide expressed an idea for a draw system that gave applicants increased draw odds after each unsuccessful year of applying. The idea made a lot of sense in that it did not restrict all the tags for those with the most points like a true preference point system does, but rather it gave those who had not drawn a better chance each year they were unsuccessful. Applicants would also be incentivized to participate in the draw each year. Two years later, in 1988, I drafted a letter and sent it to most of the western fish and game departments, including Arizona. In that letter, I described the concept and actually used the coined the term "BONUS POINT" to describe the idea. I received letters back from New Mexico, Idaho, Colorado, Nevada and Oregon. Three years later, in 1991, Arizona adopted the bonus point system. Nevada and Utah have adopted the system as well. The idea for Bonus Points conceived by my guide and one that I documented and provided to AZGFD has generated the department hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions.

As a nonresident of Arizona, I have accrued one less than max for sheep (29 points), one less than max for antelope (29 points) max deer points (22 points), and 20 points for elk, so I have been INVESTING in AZGFD's bonus point system for nearly 30 YEARS and am on the verge of enjoying the fruit of that long term investment. Since I don't hunt Arizona on years I don't draw, which has been all but one year in the past 27 years, the money invested in hunting license and application fees has been paid strictly towards future tag opportunities. I have even flown to Arizona for no other reason that to take Hunters Safety. If you were in my shoes, and had made an investment in the range of $7000 to accrue bonus points to hunt Arizona, which one of the four species would you choose to pursue with Super Bonus Points and which three would you leave behind?

If a "super bonus point" option is only allowed for ONE SPECIE and those points are retained until drawn, I will be forced to choose which of these four species to move forward on and which three to leave behind. It will DEVALUE a point system people have ALREADY INVESTED in. It will most deeply affect those who have invested the longest. I hope AZGFD sees the deep ethical, moral and legal problems with this.

This would not be the first time AZGFD has devalued points. With the recent change to nonresident tag allocation (5% cap in the bonus pass), the near "certainty" of drawing certain tags in my lifetime (13B AZ Strip rifle deer for example) has already vanished. That change has already devalued the investment of many long term nonresident applicants and has accelerated nonresident point creep. The new "super bonus point" (accrued for one specie) proposal would again further damage that investment for residents and nonresidents alike.

For me the problem compounds. As a divorced parent, I have been buying licenses and points for my children beginning 14 years ago to eventually create hunt opportunities and memories with them. I currently buy around 20 points each year for my six children and pay adult nonresident license fees for most of them with that investment currently being around $1100 a year. I have also been applying my wife for the past 9 years. Our family is on the verge of several high quality tags and hunt opportunities that we have ALREADY paid into for many years. The "super bonus point" concept threatens the investment by forcing us choose a single specie to move forward on.

Actually, I am not opposed to paying slightly more (say $10 per applicant per year) to help with AZGFD's funding through some method, but please make certain that any adopted plan does not DEVALUE THE INVESTMENT ALREADY MADE by your most LOYAL and LONG TERM customers.

Here is an example. Imagine if an investment company offered a retirement savings plan, and incentivized customers into that plan with certain future expectations. Then 20 or 30 years down the road, as people began to reach retirement and enjoy their investment, the company cut the benefits down to just a fraction of what was originally offered. The reason being....they had offered those benefits to other new investors for only a few dollars a year. That would not only be unethical, but illegal and even subject to litigation.

For the past 27 years AZGFD has had a bonus point system. The department has also provided the option to purchase bonus points in the past. The offering has implied that that those bonus points strengthens your chance to draw a tag. The Super Bonus Point idea now threatens to devalue 75% or so of the bonus points that all applicants have already accrued and invested in.

I entered AZGFD's bonus point offering with my eyes open to the investment I was making, and under the rules laid out by AZGFD. I ask that you not devalue that investment 28 years down the road.

Sincerely,

Jim
Ditto. Or lose $...
 

Tim McCoy

Veteran member
Dec 15, 2014
1,855
4
Oregon
I like the idea, with the caveat that you can buy multiple species. One species a year will hose guys that have max points for multiple species.

Money is going to be generated, one way or another, and the push a few months ago was to sell auction tags, pushed by Pete Cimalarro (AZ-SFW).
Yep, so if you want $, raise a fee here or there, license or app fee, matters not. Do not devalue points...
 

WapitiBob

Veteran member
Mar 1, 2011
1,384
53
Bend, Orygun
I don't recall that being part of the discussion, just that the Commission was adamant that the money generated be a choice and not forced upon their customers. In a way though, the "super bonus point" would become a mandatory purchase if you really want to keep your position in line. Lots of ideas have been floated around, the tag auction being a big one from the sfw auction crowd. Pretty hard to raise 1 million/year and make it voluntary.
 

mallardsx2

Veteran member
Jul 8, 2015
3,824
3,020
Unreal. Any way the states can milk the common man for a chance to go hunting they are going to do it.....


Sounds just like the stupid "Special Draw" in Wyoming.
 

HuskyMusky

Veteran member
Nov 29, 2011
1,323
174
IL
sounds terrible.

basically a hunter would lose ground on all the other game species that they don't put in for "a super bonus point" or whatever it's called.
 

Zim

Very Active Member
Feb 28, 2011
737
61
LaPorte, IN
Ya I REALLY hope this dies. It's wrong in so many ways. And frankly my head already hurts just trying to plan hunt strategies. With every point cheapening scheme I feel like it's just a matter of time before every state eventually ends up with Maine's convoluted moose lottery fiasco.............buy all the unlimited bonus points you want every year. Basically building a dumpster fire with all the points they sold to us early investors...............

Non-resident Application Fees
One chance: $15 (or bonus point only)
Three chances: $25
Six chances: $35
10 chances: $55
>10 chances: Available in multiples of 10 (e.g. 50 for $275)

As if this wasn't enough, Maine outfitter special interest groups stole 20% of the total NR tags for outfitter welfare last year.

These point degradation schemes won't end until they are scraping the bottom of the barrel.
 

Umpqua Hunter

Veteran member
May 26, 2011
3,576
88
59
North Umpqua, Oregon
Anything to keep non residents away I am for here in AZ................BOB1
The Super Bonus Point idea isn't directed to non-residents. It would also affect residents who have built points for more than one specie. You will basically have to chose the one specie you want to pursue and leave the others at the curb.

P.S. As a nonresident, over the past 25+ years, I have personally funded AZGFD $5K+ with 6 days of elk hunting to show for it.
 
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