advice for 16 elk points

[toddt]

Hi everyone. I have a pretty good idea of what I will be doing with the 16 elk points in Colorado that each of us have - both of us have 16 points. Problem is, I have been considering unit 76 - which is all over the internet and seems very well known, so I don't believe I am letting the proverbial cat out of the bag. I am in a bit of a conundrum because I am not very committed to what season I actually hunt. I have enough points to draw the archery or first rifle. As for blackpowder, I am most likely still out about two to three years, depending on what others do with their points. But also, again depending on what the masses do, I am anywhere between 2 and 5 years for unit 61 second rifle season. Bottomline is, I am pretty close on a couple of good hunts, but far enough away that nothing is a for sure deal.

Actually though, my wife is my main concern. She is 9 years older than I am, and with her at the age of 53, I feel like to get the most enjoyment out of a hunt that is even somewhat physical, we need to pull the trigger sooner, rather than later. At the point levels we are at, it has crossed my mind to wait for 201, BUT, that wait could easily be 15 more years, unless of course Colorado changes the system. However, who knows what will/can take place in just a couple years, much less 10 to 15 years. Plus as I read it, there are about 3,000 others in and above my point pool, and all most likely have the same thoughts in mind. I do have a post asking about Utah, as I have 11 points there, and I have grown weary of the points game. I believe in Utah, once I draw a tag, the game will be nothing more than luck of the draw, whereas in Colorado, after drawing, I will be able to find a decent unit that takes only 1 to 5 points and hunt on a more regular basis. However the only states my wife has points in is Colorado and Wyoming, so I would really like to get her a fun elk hunt. She has never killed an elk and would be very happy with a fun hunt with bugling elk and a visual rut.

I realize that everyone wants pretty much the same thing, with the only exceptions being those who only want a bull 350 inches or better - their work is definitely cut out for them, unless they have deep pockets - then there are those who just want to hunt and have somewhat of a chance to kill an elk, which these are much easier to appease. But in the end, as mentioned, for my wife especially, we just want a fun hunt, with a visible rut and lower hunter numbers.

I have read eastmans reports, as well as huntin fool and it seems as though in Colorado, you either have to have max points, or within a couple, or have enough money to get on a private ranch - which were not in that crowd, unless someone can point us to a ranch that offers reasonable trespass fees, but I am not sure such a thing even exists.

I guess basically I am saying that I have researched to the best of my ability and really have not gotten any further than what I have known for several years. Unless, someone can point out a unit that I am overlooking. But if that is the case, I would surmise that it would be an easier draw and thusly anyone aware of such a place would be more tightlipped, which I fully understand.

I did consider unit 40 as it ranks right up there with the northwest corner, but again, as I had been told 10 plus years ago, there is the private property problem. I spoke with the game warden and he suggested that if I were to go the route of unit 40, that the later rifle seasons would be best due to the elk migrating to a lower elevation - apparently where most of the public is held.

Then there is unit 67 for blackpowder, which I have heard is NOT worth the amount of points it takes to draw.

That brings me right back to where I started, unit 76. The archery season seems best as the season is long, then the regular first rifle, but it seems that due to the elevation that the weather can be problematic and a snow storm generally comes in at least one out every three years during the first rifle season.

As everyone can see, my wife and I are definitely in that no-man's land situation so that is the reason behind my running in circles. I fully realize that I am in a difficult predicament, as is a large number of other hunters, but with 16 years invested I want both my wife and myself to be very careful in what we actually end up doing as we will NEVER be in the situation that we are currently in again.

So if anyone has a suggestion that I haven't thought of or mentioned or if you happen to have more information for anything that I have mentioned, but overlooked a positive quality thereof, I am very receptive.

Though it wouldn't have helped my wife any because we got together 16 years ago, I regret the day that I used 3 points in 1998 to draw a statewide muzzleloader tag, otherwise I would have enough points to draw anything except unit's 201 and those surrounding it.

 

[RICMIC]

Toddt, you covered a lot of ground. I don't see where you are from, as the distance traveled and the time available may impact where you apply. I have hunted Colorado for elk several times, but don't have any specific area advice, as mine were OTC tags. My suggestion would be to focus on your wife's hunt. Find an area with good elk numbers and that would be a sure draw. Continue to build your points. As you stated, most of the points chasers are after the units with the illusive "Booner" bull. There are plenty of good areas that don't have the hype and can still produce a great hunt. I'm sure you'll get some more specific area info on this post, but you only have a month to do your research and decide. Good Luck.

 

[Zim]

Wow you have spent a LOT of time analyzing that from what I have gathered isn't much more than the difference between a mediocre elk hunt and a slightly better mediocre elk hunt. Judging by all the photos & reviews I've read of these units. I have 19 points and we are both firmly in no mans land with many others. So I spend little time thinking about those points. You can have much better hunts elsewhere virtually every year in other states. I have been applying for 20 years in ten states and I think my CO elk points are my most worthless. They offer value up to only about the 3/4 point level. Past that there's nothing to gain by holding on to them.

I took a 330 P&Y bull in a zero point unit in another state DIY. See many photos of those from the units you are mulling? I'd just go burn you CO points now. Good luck.

 

[toddt]

Zim, you are absolutely correct in your thoughts. By the way, if you don't recall me, you helped me with my Valle Vidal New Mexico elk hunt several years ago. I also pay attention when you write because I am familiar with your adventures, so I appreciate the insight.

Back to Colorado, again, I agree fully. The big problem is, I realize that a good hunt can be had on many of the lower point tags, but it is all but impossible to make myself use my points for anything less than a unit that requires those points. Kind of like being in a store, and having $100 bill in my pocket, and almost everything is $10 with just a couple things being $150, but if you buy one of the cheaper items, you don't get change back when you make the purchase.

Anyway, if I were you, I would most likely be targeting unit 61. If you don't draw that tag, you are very close. Actually I would feel much better if I were where you are, versus only a point or two behind you. I guess the problem that you have is, I feel that you actually have a fighting chance of getting into unit 201 within the next five years, and that is pretty appealing.

I don't understand why Colorado doesn't institute more trophy managed units. It just makes sense to me, and though it would impact some hunters, doing so would actually be advantageous for the whole sum, in the long run. It seems that most states have an assortment of units for bidding. From low - similar to OTC in Colorado - to top end - like, or even better, than units 201 - but they also have a LOT of mid level units that provide a better hunt with fewer hunters than a basic OTC hunt, without the overall top end quality that the best units have. Something like that would be great in my opinion, but no matter what I, or even a few feel about the situation, it isn't going to change anytime soon, so we just have to make the best of what we have to work with. So that is what I am trying to do.

As mentioned, my goal is to find a decent hunt, for my wife as well as myself, and then find a decent unit that requires only about 1 to 5 points and hunt Colorado on a regular basis. Personally, I don't think that any unit is worth waiting more than about 5 years for, but then, I don't feel like a nice, new truck, is worth $40,000. But apparently the market sets the bar, and it is what it is.

So, I am trying to sort out what I should do. I guess I should have been more direct with my question here, and ask, can anyone provide any information about unit 40 beyond what I have already gathered? I have read about a few guys who have had pretty good hunts on public ground in that unit, but according to the warden, the public there is pretty crowded and a large percentage of the elk are on the vast nearby private ground. But if someone has had experience with unit 40 and thinks it would be a viable option, I am very open to going that direction.

Then, there is unit 76. I was actually thinking that with the dates being as early as they will ever be this year, if I were to go the route of the regular first rifle hunt, it would be this year, given these dates. Those that I have corresponded with say it can be a fun hunt, and offer up, pretty much, what I am looking for, but one guy in particular said that though he was successful on opening morning, a large snowstorm came in the day before the opener. He was just lucky enough to have access to a snowmobile, and he also had great inside information - so I took it for what it was, meaning he had a lot of influence that may not be available to me.

I suppose that I could draw the tag that I think I would like, and though it would be a very expensive road trip, I could head out a few days early and then, if things weren't very good, I could turn in my tag and keep my points. Expensive yes, but definitely a plan of sorts.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice, and for the person who posted above concerning my wife. Yes, I definitely would like to get her on an elk hunt, even before I do, due to age, work circumstances, etc. But that was definitely a good point. Again, any additional information will be greatly appreciated.

 

[CrossCreeks]

"Zim " I am sitting at 16 PP in CO. too and you are exactly right, we are in no man's land ! Now way to go up with the points creep !
My CO. PP have the least value of any of the points I have when you compare to other states. I can't blame anyone but myself because I keep banking them.

 

[Zim]

I can't burn mine now anyway due to hunts I know I will draw the next 3 years in AZ, UT & OR due to my point levels..........if the legislators don't screw me first. For CO I'm also waiting for them to decide on point banking because I would jump all over that if so. According to my math I'll never get to unit 61 (Haha big deal just another incremental slightly better mediocre unit!)

 

[Granby guy]

I would use my points on the 76 tag for first season. I know some guys that have killed some good Bulls there and they said they would return in a heartbeat

 

[Steve O]

I'd pick a couple units you think you want to hunt then invest a week or two during the time you want to hunt them to have a quick look. I did that having 15 points in Utah and I'm sure what unit I want to go to and where I can start rather than going in cold.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Zim, go to 61 and spend 2-3 weeks and hunt archery. The quality is definitely trending up and the bigger bulls are certainly there. The reason you see so many pics of small bulls is there are a lot of tags, most of which are not in prime rut dates and very few guys can hold out when they have bulls all around them. There is an insane number of elk and 340-360 bulls are there, you just have to filter through a LOT of smaller bulls. The canyon I hunted probably had 50 bulls in it. We saw three in the 350 plus class. Reports of a 370 in the canyon I hunted and a 400 class bull in the adjacent canyon (you know "reports" though). On my muzzy hunt, I saw very few guys do much more than road hunting. I saw ONE hunter off the road in 10 days. Most of the of canyons where I hunted you have to drop into then hike back out of. I blew my 20 yard chance on a 350+ bull on my way back to camp after the morning hunt, primer had fallen out. Shot my bull the following morning, it was hard to resist a with mature bull screaming at us at 30 yards, with my wife at my side on her first rut elk hunt.

I would not hesitate to archery hunt during the muzzy season. As I ran into one guy once I left the road.

To get the best "feel" for what 61 has, look at Weimer Hunting Camp's photos on Facebook. Again realize a lot of these bulls are later season rifle bulls:

https://www.facebook.com/search/str/Weimer/keywords_top

 

[JPSeveland]

76 is a great tag for sure i feel that its one of the best areas in the state for a big bull with big country. You should be able to draw any tag in 76 minus early first rifle that takes 21 point for the NR. I have guided right on the border of 76,66 and have been applying for 76 for a few years now and find myself being a nonresident this year. If you are wanting to hunt the rut your best bet is to hunt archery muzzle loader and 1st rifle season. This area can be anything from moderate to extreme and were we have hunted its straight up 2.5 miles towere we start to hunt. If i was you i would really consider muzzle loader or 1st rifle. Muzzle loader is a 9 day season but make sure you read the rules on muzzle loading in colorado cause you cant just use everything. I have a buddy of mine that has hunted 76 1st rifle many times and always has great success and always sees a lot of elk and is always successful but this is only a 5 day tag. I hope this helps you im going threw the same things for colorado and wyoming right now. Its a great tag to have.

 

[Elkhunter96]

I've been with Weimer on 61 chasing deer. Spent a few days after killing my deer spotting bulls. Great unit, very much on the uptick. In two days, spotted several nice bulls. One in the 360 range...

 

[packmule]

I'll be in that predicament before I know it and seriously considering finding a good private land hunt.

 

[MuleyHunter]

Colorado unit choices

toddt,

Send me a PM and I can help you out with info on unit 40.

As for the rest of you guys thinking about unit 61 and it being a mediocre unit. If you do your homework, put in the time, and hunt. There are some big bulls in the unit.

Quinton

 

[ColoradoV]

I can't burn mine now anyway due to hunts I know I will draw the next 3 years in AZ, UT & OR due to my point levels..........if the legislators don't screw me first. For CO I'm also waiting for them to decide on point banking because I would jump all over that if so. According to my math I'll never get to unit 61 (Haha big deal just another incremental slightly better mediocre unit!)

The decision was made by the CPW that point banking is not coming back probably ever and they might revisit the idea when this 5 year structure is over. So unless you are looking out past 2020 there is 0 chance of the point banking concept coming back to Colorado. CPW said the negatives outweighed the positives and the hunter feedback they received was well over 2-1 against the concept.

Good luck with your hunt choice.

 

[toddt]

That makes sense, the mentioned 2 to 1 against the point banking. My reasoning being - and a check of the numbers would be more accurate - I would speculate that point holders above about 8 would be close to 10,000 or slightly more, while those with 8 or less would probably number about 20,000 plus.

I don't want to turn this into a points banking debate, but I wish they would have instituted point banking. The system as it is now will serve about 60 percent of everyone involved very well, but the other 40 percent are in for a tough road. And some may say, I shouldn't have accrued so many points, but I didn't get into the game in hopes of holding onto almost two decades of points. I simply got this many points after applying for legitimate tags up until this point. At most, I may have applied for points for 2 - 3 years, the rest of the years, I applied for actual tags. In a nutshell, most of us with more than 10 points did not set out to wait this long, as a matter of fact, when I started applying for unit 201, I believe the minimum points required were about six. Had that number remained at six, I would have hunted that unit several times over by now. I guess what I am saying is, when most of us that have larger numbers of points started our journey, we didn't realize what was about to take place. It isn't anyone's fault, it simply is what it is, and we have to deal with it. I just wish that someone would have told me 16 years ago that I would never have the chance at a northwestern unit, I would have definitely done things differently.

Actually something that just came to mind, you mentioned that there would be no more discussion about point banking until 2020, but when I spoke with a Colorado biologist the other day, he did say that the division of wildlife was researching a way to deal with the large number of points. Those were pretty much his exact words, and he provided no details, but in my mind, I felt like he was saying in the next couple of years, the dow hoped to address this issue. But he very well could have meant that they were looking for ways to deal with the system between now and 2020. Who knows, all I know, is, I would like to use my points and go on a good hunt.

Thanks for all of the replies.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Most of the units (like 201 and such) are now in the Hybrid draw. So if you apply for them and have over 5 points you could still draw that tag. I know the odds are pretty bad, BUT the chance is still there. I think this is one way the Dept tries to address this situation. I did draw a hybrid draw tag for antelope a few years back, so it does happen occasionally.

 

[ColoradoV]

Just a quick question todd have you ever hunted for a bull elk in Colorado while you were gaining points?

If so you, me, and a lot of other guys are the problem and not the tried and failed concept of point banking... It is a statistical fact is that too many folks hunt for a Bull (OTC, Lo voucher) in Colorado every year and gain a point to make expectation of hunting a top tier unit valid..

The current system is way most hunters want it and the CPW is going to have a hard time breaking from the "cash bull" otc bull elk tags creates... It also creates a situation where you, me, and most guys reading this will never draw the best tags unless in the hybrid draw. Read this again you, me, and most of the other guys reading this will never draw 201 as it is statistically impossible unless you get lucky on the hybrid tag.. If they changed elk to draw only and any time you drew your points went to 0 point creep would slow substantially and statistically that is the only idea that I have seen that would work..

I have been against banking as I have said many times i see hunters who hunt and bankers who bank.... Let the hunters hunt! The effect of banking would have totally eliminated left over deer tags and the CPW themselves said most 0-1 point deer units would turn into 2-4 point units.. Not good from where most hunters who hunt sit....

Or it was good the CPW saw the concept for what it was - or bad for everyone but a select few... It would have been the worst for a kid who can not build points and would have been basically eliminated from hunting their back yard units until they put in for years before they could hunt where they live........ From how I see hunting no reason or it is a flat unfair and stupid idea for someone who cant figure it out to be rewarded by being able to hunt a unit 2x or 3x while a 12 year old has to wait til they are 18 to hunt their back yard..

If you have to be able hunt 201 in order to find your bulll - take a look at LO vouchers for where you want to hunt as you can buy one and hunt the area that year if you wish. IMO if you cant have a good hunt in 76,61, or 40 to be frank it is your fault and not the unit quality, weather, guide, or anything else as there are 360+ bulls in each unit and with hard work many I know have gotten it done... If you want a guaranteed 400" bull look into sci and high fence hunts as you can guarantee yourself a big bull that way and dont even have to scout or get that far from the truck and again could hunt this year.

My advice is to be a hunter and not a banker!! Or pick a unit, draw it, spend a ton of time scouting with family/friends, have fun! Then get out opening day, hunt hard for the entire season, and see where the chips fall. As if you leave a few points on the table well that is the price of doing business - you are fortunate enough to have the luxury choosing the exact dates, and get a great unit/hunt that most guys would cherish for life.

Also the guys I know over at the cpw said jokingly look to 2020 or dont plan on the banking concept to come back ever as if it does the CPW knows it would create more problems than it would have solve.

Good luck on your choice and hunt.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Great post V, you are correct on your analysis. I am sitting on 6 for deer, 4 for elk & 13 for antelope. This year I will try to use my deer points, add an additional elk and antelope point. I will draw a 2nd choice cow M/L tag and not use my points so next year I can do my Gunnison West Elk Wilderness guided hunt. Still trying to draw my antelope unit tho.

My point is I have used points and will continue to use them. Someone who is just entering this madness should really consider the ramifications of waiting 20 or more years to hunt in one of those units, as there are tons of opportunities out there to get a great bull or buck. You just have to do your homework and start digging!

 

[toddt]

Colorado V, very well written, and I do understand. I would like to say, that no, I have not hunted in Colorado for elk during the time I have been gathering points. And as you point that fact out, it sounds like that only adds to the problem. I think in the beginning I thought that it was interesting that someone could gain a point and hunt at the same time but as I quickly simply accepted it as the way it is, I never questioned it further. But again, it is what it is, and we have to do with it, what we can. Basically, my wife and I got together going on 17 years ago, prior to that, I had hunted Colorado three times for elk, and to be honest, I did not care for my experience on OTC. Granted, I am certain I did not get into some of the better areas due to a lack of knowledge as well as mobility issues - no horses and not having back packing knowledge. I hunted unit 36, once with archery, and once with muzzleloader, I found elk both times, but I also found lot's of other hunters. And the elk all but disappeared after being spooked. Once I shot an average five point bull with the muzzleloader and as my dad and a friend also had a tag I hung around helping them, but we never saw any more elk. Then I hunted unit first rifle in unit 12, or it might have been 24, the units were clumped together for the tag so I am not positive as to which exact unit I was in. I went in a couple days early on that hunt, and it was amazing to me, as my elk hunting experience was pretty limited. Bulls were bugling everywhere, and I had several bulls located in short time. I was ready for opening day, and had extremely high hopes. Then opening day came. I went to my spot expecting to find the elk in the small meadow that I had found them the two mornings before. I heard nothing but gun shots. It honestly sounded like a dove shoot, rather than an elk hunt. I never even knew that so many other hunters were on the same ridgeline, but they were, and in full force. I did shoot an average five point on that hunt as well, but the experience put me off on OTC units - which I understand they aren't all the same. So when my wife and I got together, I started applying for limited units, and other than one deer hunt, I haven't been back to hunt in Colorado. In that time I have drawn tags in New Mexico four times, Arizona once, Montana once and hunted OTC in Idaho.

As far as what I wanted to get out of a hunt, I should have added that. Im not a dyed in the wool trophy hunter, though I do want a quality elk I certainly wouldn't pass up a 300 inch bull in hopes of finding a 350. But again, a lot depends on what the area is known for. I am sure you understand, but obviously some areas, if you encounter a 280 inch bull, you best pull the trigger, while some areas offer the luxury of passing up several 320 bulls as you know the area has it's share of larger bulls. Personally, I have four bulls that go between 300 and 320 and would really like to stay at least around the 300 inch mark. Also, I hope not to see a hunter on every ridge, so these reasons are why I have been holding out for a limited unit, NOT because I want a 350 or a 400 inch bull. From what I understand, a 350 inch bull on any property in Colorado is a tall order, private or public, limited or OTC. It can be done, but I believe everyone can agree that it is as much luck as anything else, but we can work to tip things in our favor. Along the way though, we must keep reasonable expectations.

Actually concerning unit 76, I have found that the elk herd is significant there, so it seems there are plenty of elk to chase. Back to my concerns though, I wonder about the numbers of other elk hunters in the back country, plus I wonder just how rugged the terrain will be. The unit is on the continental divide, so I am certain it can be as rough as it gets, but I have been old there is some milder terrain. I don't mind rough, if I have a horse, or as long as it isn't unbelievably extreme, as it would most definitely be while hunting right on the divide. Lastly, I wonder about the weather of the first rifle season. I have been told that the weather is very iffy at that time of year, so having a foot of snow dumped on the area the day before, or even any day during the hunt would be pretty much miserable, and without sure transportation - which I don't even know if horses could handle that type of situation - I would be sunk. Obviously the weather isn't anything that anyone can control, and no one knows what each year has in store, but I was thinking that if I were going to go with a 76 first rifle tag, this year may be the best year, as the dates are as early as they can be.

It sounds to me like what I am looking for can be found in unit 76, I just need to figure out exactly which season and how to plan the hunt - where exactly, transportation in the backcountry, etc. - so I can make the best use of this tag that I have waited so long for. I would actually really like to hunt muzzleloader season in unit 76, but I figure after looking at the drawing odds, I am at least two years out on drawing that tag. So all that is really left is archery, or first rifle. Honestly, after researching, I don't know why anyone would even consider a second or third rifle hunt in unit 76, the weather and conditions just seem too volatile and severe.

Back to the point situation, it sounds like it would be best to change the rules to, if you hunt a bull elk in the state, you lose all points. That may help in a couple ways. It could alleviate hunter numbers on OTC because many would wait on a limited tag which may decrease the crowding for OTC units. Or for those who have to hunt every year or two, it would help to some degree, alleviate the points problem, as many would opt to hunt every year or two, and they wouldn't be saving high numbers of points.

Another potential help, would be to add several more all limited units, and limit them to the point, that a high quality hunt could be had during any season. But the problem with any of these suggestions is that, without a doubt, someone would be upset because it would be effecting them. As far as the youth situation that you mention, I have never understood why many western states have such a hard line drawn against youth. In my home state, as long as an adult is with a youth of any age, as long as they can shoot straight enough to hit a deer - which this is determined by the accompanying adult only -, they are allowed to hunt.

Again, you make some great points, and I appreciate your post.

 

[HiMtnHnter]

Colorado V, very well written, and I do understand. I would like to say, that no, I have not hunted in Colorado for elk during the time I have been gathering points. And as you point that fact out, it sounds like that only adds to the problem. I think in the beginning I thought that it was interesting that someone could gain a point and hunt at the same time but as I quickly simply accepted it as the way it is, I never questioned it further. But again, it is what it is, and we have to do with it, what we can. Basically, my wife and I got together going on 17 years ago, prior to that, I had hunted Colorado three times for elk, and to be honest, I did not care for my experience on OTC. Granted, I am certain I did not get into some of the better areas due to a lack of knowledge as well as mobility issues - no horses and not having back packing knowledge. I hunted unit 36, once with archery, and once with muzzleloader, I found elk both times, but I also found lot's of other hunters. And the elk all but disappeared after being spooked. Once I shot an average five point bull with the muzzleloader and as my dad and a friend also had a tag I hung around helping them, but we never saw any more elk. Then I hunted unit first rifle in unit 12, or it might have been 24, the units were clumped together for the tag so I am not positive as to which exact unit I was in. I went in a couple days early on that hunt, and it was amazing to me, as my elk hunting experience was pretty limited. Bulls were bugling everywhere, and I had several bulls located in short time. I was ready for opening day, and had extremely high hopes. Then opening day came. I went to my spot expecting to find the elk in the small meadow that I had found them the two mornings before. I heard nothing but gun shots. It honestly sounded like a dove shoot, rather than an elk hunt. I never even knew that so many other hunters were on the same ridgeline, but they were, and in full force. I did shoot an average five point on that hunt as well, but the experience put me off on OTC units - which I understand they aren't all the same. So when my wife and I got together, I started applying for limited units, and other than one deer hunt, I haven't been back to hunt in Colorado. In that time I have drawn tags in New Mexico four times, Arizona once, Montana once and hunted OTC in Idaho.

As far as what I wanted to get out of a hunt, I should have added that. Im not a dyed in the wool trophy hunter, though I do want a quality elk I certainly wouldn't pass up a 300 inch bull in hopes of finding a 350. But again, a lot depends on what the area is known for. I am sure you understand, but obviously some areas, if you encounter a 280 inch bull, you best pull the trigger, while some areas offer the luxury of passing up several 320 bulls as you know the area has it's share of larger bulls. Personally, I have four bulls that go between 300 and 320 and would really like to stay at least around the 300 inch mark. Also, I hope not to see a hunter on every ridge, so these reasons are why I have been holding out for a limited unit, NOT because I want a 350 or a 400 inch bull. From what I understand, a 350 inch bull on any property in Colorado is a tall order, private or public, limited or OTC. It can be done, but I believe everyone can agree that it is as much luck as anything else, but we can work to tip things in our favor. Along the way though, we must keep reasonable expectations.

Actually concerning unit 76, I have found that the elk herd is significant there, so it seems there are plenty of elk to chase. Back to my concerns though, I wonder about the numbers of other elk hunters in the back country, plus I wonder just how rugged the terrain will be. The unit is on the continental divide, so I am certain it can be as rough as it gets, but I have been old there is some milder terrain. I don't mind rough, if I have a horse, or as long as it isn't unbelievably extreme, as it would most definitely be while hunting right on the divide. Lastly, I wonder about the weather of the first rifle season. I have been told that the weather is very iffy at that time of year, so having a foot of snow dumped on the area the day before, or even any day during the hunt would be pretty much miserable, and without sure transportation - which I don't even know if horses could handle that type of situation - I would be sunk. Obviously the weather isn't anything that anyone can control, and no one knows what each year has in store, but I was thinking that if I were going to go with a 76 first rifle tag, this year may be the best year, as the dates are as early as they can be.

It sounds to me like what I am looking for can be found in unit 76, I just need to figure out exactly which season and how to plan the hunt - where exactly, transportation in the backcountry, etc. - so I can make the best use of this tag that I have waited so long for. I would actually really like to hunt muzzleloader season in unit 76, but I figure after looking at the drawing odds, I am at least two years out on drawing that tag. So all that is really left is archery, or first rifle. Honestly, after researching, I don't know why anyone would even consider a second or third rifle hunt in unit 76, the weather and conditions just seem too volatile and severe.

Back to the point situation, it sounds like it would be best to change the rules to, if you hunt a bull elk in the state, you lose all points. That may help in a couple ways. It could alleviate hunter numbers on OTC because many would wait on a limited tag which may decrease the crowding for OTC units. Or for those who have to hunt every year or two, it would help to some degree, alleviate the points problem, as many would opt to hunt every year or two, and they wouldn't be saving high numbers of points.

Another potential help, would be to add several more all limited units, and limit them to the point, that a high quality hunt could be had during any season. But the problem with any of these suggestions is that, without a doubt, someone would be upset because it would be effecting them. As far as the youth situation that you mention, I have never understood why many western states have such a hard line drawn against youth. In my home state, as long as an adult is with a youth of any age, as long as they can shoot straight enough to hit a deer - which this is determined by the accompanying adult only -, they are allowed to hunt.

Again, you make some great points, and I appreciate your post.

I have spent time in 61 and chased it while I was resident of CO, just waiting for the right year. Now I have 13 pp and have probably completely ousted myself from the running in ever drawing a tag for that unit. I could have drawn it at one time, but the year was not good for me. I will tell you up front that I am completely biased, but if I were in your shoes I'd spring for 61.