7mm-08 vs 6mm Recoil

[magnum12]

Hey guys, so I have been doing some research and wanted to see if anyone could add in here.

A little background info, I have an older Remington model 600 chambered in 6mm Rem with a 1 in 12 twist barrel that I was working on getting setup for my 12 year old to shoot this coming deer season. After working on some different loads, I am finding that it cannot shoot any bullet that is over 90 grains due to the barrel. (Even 90 grains is not that great) Even though I still have some time till Sept for us, I am thinking worst case scenario in that I might have to get another rifle for him to shoot. One rifle I was thinking of was a Tika in a 7mm-08 but wonder how much more recoil it has compared to a 6mm or even a 20 gauge shooting 3" waterfowl load. I know that is different but he can handle that just fine.

Hopefully someone out there has shot both and can give me some insight on the difference. I did pull up Chucks Rifle Recoil table and per that, there was not that much more then the 6mm.

Now if someone has a good load for a 6mm that would work well on blacktail deer, and would like to share, that would be great. What I did find this gun likes a lot is 87 grain VMax with 50.5 grains of Win 780 but after talking to Hornady they did not recommend that bullet for deer which I figured since it was a varmint bullet.

 

[JimP]

Your problem is that each shooter is going to feel recoil differently and depending on the stock and weight of your 6mm could feel different than my rifle if I have one in 6mm Rem.

Now after saying that, have you tried a Barnes TTSX 80 grain bullet? They are copper so the 80 grain bullet will actually act a lot like a heaver one once it hits a animal. For some load data on it you can check it out on the Barnes Bullets web site.

As for the 7mm-08 I know a lot of younger hunters that are shooting it with factory loads with no problems on game up to elk.

 

[Tim McCoy]

Nope, not much difference if one does not expect much difference... Setting rifle weight aside, if your son is good with a full house 6mm 90gr. load, you can find 7-08 loads, possibly with a 120gr. pill that will recoil about the same. Reduced recoil loads with a 140 work well in the 7-08 too, my nephew took a cow elk with a 140 gr reduced load in factory Remmy.

So back to rifle weight, what if you get a rifle just a bit heavier then the 600 in 6mm? What does the 600 weigh, under 6lbs sans scope? Have not done the math, but you might just find a 7 - 7 1/2 lb rifle, sans scope in 7-08 will have the same felt recoil.

Best advice I can offer is the recoil between the two will not be an issue, if your 12 yr old can shoot the 6mm confidently. Meaning in my experience, work the kid up in recoil, building confidence. Love 223/5.56 for it's loud noise and lack of recoil, then 6mm, then next caliber up, within reason. Have fun! Miss those times, but have 4 grand boys about to start the process.

 

[Mr Drysdale]

If he can shoot a 3" 20 he will have no problem with the 7-08. Also agree with JimP on the 80 gr TTSX. It is bad medicine on deer.

 

[magnum12]

I called up Barnes today and talked to them about it and they were nice enough to send m a dozen 80 grain TTX bullets to try, free of charge, and see if the gun will shoot them. I am hoping they will as shooting a cooper bullet from barnes will make up for the loss of weight in lead.

Weight wise I did go out and right now the gun weighs in a touch over 7 1/2 lbs with scope and all and he can handle this rifle with no problem at all. This coming weekend, I have an old model 99 savage chambered in 300 savage and see how he can handle that. The only problem with that is over the last few seasons the groupings this gun shoots is getting wider and wider which makes me suspect the barrel is getting shot out. It's only 50+ years old and grandpa shot his first deer with it in his teens. The other problem is big brother still wants to hunt with it but am waving a very nice browning FN Mauser 30-06 in front of his nose and he is thinking of hunting with it this season.

 

[magnum12]

Tim - Yes, with him I had to slowly build up with recoil as he was always a little sensitive to it and as you mentioned he started small and then jumped into shotguns for the waterfowl season. Even then I had to start him with 2 3/4 trap loads and eventually 3" waterfowl loads. Now he can shoot those all day long. When he tried the 6mm a few weeks ago, he shot it, said that wasn't bad and all and then continued to shoot till he ran out of ammo.

 

[Mr Drysdale]

If I am reading correctly, the 300 Savage has less recoil than the 7-08. The barrel may be shot out but it may just need a good cleaning. I would get some good copper solvent/remover and give it a good scrubbing. Good Luck with your rifles and your boys.

 

[Tim McCoy]

Tim - Yes, with him I had to slowly build up with recoil as he was always a little sensitive to it and as you mentioned he started small and then jumped into shotguns for the waterfowl season. Even then I had to start him with 2 3/4 trap loads and eventually 3" waterfowl loads. Now he can shoot those all day long. When he tried the 6mm a few weeks ago, he shot it, said that wasn't bad and all and then continued to shoot till he ran out of ammo.

Well you have done that right IMO. Not that I'm an expert, I'm not. I am sensitive to recoil as well, frankly, I hate it. Really hate it. The suggestion to clean the barrel is a good one. So you might consider cleaning it, then loading it with your son when he believes it is loaded, let him "shoot" it, without being loaded. Just watch for a flinch. At times, I've been guilty as have both my boys.

My boys always told me they were good, but what I did is shoot it myself and when I did better with the same rifle, I knew the issue. In my cases cleaning was not the issue. Not pretending to know or suggest, but if the 6mm accuracy issue is recent, and you have not shot it, may be worth a check. Again, no expert, but when I'd check for a flinch with a kid, I started with dry firing at home, let's work on the trigger pull... Get them used to that with a steady rest. Out to the range we'd go and often a flinch we'd discover.

 

[Slugz]

Agree with everything said......I just did the spring cleaning and used the new Hoppes foam and was quite impressed.

WRT to the 7mm-08....We used that for the kids as their first gun.....all our "firsts" antelope, mule deer and elk were taken with that gun. Hodgen make a really nice reduced recoil load data sheet. We started them out shooting reduced loads then I worked them up to a full load without even telling them. No issues. give me a holler if you want it and cant find it online.

 

[magnum12]

The old savage is probably due for a good cleaning as it has been about a year since I have cleaned out the copper last. I will do that before this weekend and see how it goes.

Tim - Good idea about practicing with dry firing!

Slugz - Thanks for the info! I did find the info on their website! What weight pill did you use?

 

[Hilltop]

I have a youth model 7mm-08 that I bought for my wife. In the lighter rifle weight I was honestly surprised by how much it kicks. It is considerably more than the .243 she was shooting in the same frame. As others have mentioned, rifle weight is very important.

Comparing recoil in the 20 gauge and a rifle isn't a good idea IMO. The two guns are shot very differently so felt recoil is typically perceived differently by a shooter. For instance many of us shoot magnum shotgun loads regularly that far exceed 40 lbs of felt recoil with no problem. This is comparable to some of the African elephant gun recoils which most of us consider punishing.

If deer is your only intended game, I believe that the 6mm or .243 is the best choice for recoil sensitive shooters. I haven't ever found a more capable round with very low recoil.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Now if someone has a good load for a 6mm that would work well on blacktail deer (I recall we were shooting something like 50 grain , and would like to share, that would be great.

If it helps we killed quite a few blacktails and several antelope with a .223 when I was in my 20s. That was a while ago, but blacktails haven't changed much since then I know we weren't terribly concerned with bullet construction back then and we were likely using a varmint bullet somewhere around 50 grains. I think if you can develop an accurate load with a quality big game bullet you should be ready to roll.

 

[mallardsx2]

I'm a big advocate of the .243 for kids. I even like to shoot it. Deer don't always drop on the spot but rarely run over 50 yards with a well placed shot.

 

[libidilatimmy]

I called up Barnes today and talked to them about it and they were nice enough to send m a dozen 80 grain TTX bullets to try, free of charge, and see if the gun will shoot them. I am hoping they will as shooting a cooper bullet from barnes will make up for the loss of weight in lead.

Weight wise I did go out and right now the gun weighs in a touch over 7 1/2 lbs with scope and all and he can handle this rifle with no problem at all. This coming weekend, I have an old model 99 savage chambered in 300 savage and see how he can handle that. The only problem with that is over the last few seasons the groupings this gun shoots is getting wider and wider which makes me suspect the barrel is getting shot out. It's only 50+ years old and grandpa shot his first deer with it in his teens. The other problem is big brother still wants to hunt with it but am waving a very nice browning FN Mauser 30-06 in front of his nose and he is thinking of hunting with it this season.

The load data in the Barnes manual states that the only bullet that they produce that will stabilize effectively in a 12 twist 6mm Rem is their 62 grain varmint bullet and the other offerings (75 gr and higher) require the modern 9 twist barrels. If you do find a decent load with the 80 gr Barnes, you'll want to test the load at extended ranges as well to verify if the load is holding it's accuracy (staying stabilized) at 200-300-400 yds.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2015/06/6mm-Remington.pdf

Another bullet option you may want to try is the 85 gr. Sierra GK or Partition as these are about the lightest hunting style traditional bullets out there. Here's a link that you can play with to see if certain bullets are going to stabilize in your particular setup.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

 

[Slugz]

The old savage is probably due for a good cleaning as it has been about a year since I have cleaned out the copper last. I will do that before this weekend and see how it goes.

Tim - Good idea about practicing with dry firing!

Slugz - Thanks for the info! I did find the info on their website! What weight pill did you use?

Gonna go and try and knock down another Turkey......will dig into that mysterious pile of paper on the reloading bench tonight and get the info for ya.

 

[Slugz]

The old savage is probably due for a good cleaning as it has been about a year since I have cleaned out the copper last. I will do that before this weekend and see how it goes.

Tim - Good idea about practicing with dry firing!

Slugz - Thanks for the info! I did find the info on their website! What weight pill did you use?

Looks like we shot 140s......Sierras for practice range shooting then Accubonds for the hunts.

 

[magnum12]

Thank you Slugz for the info! Will be doing some more testing this weekend with the old 6mm.

Libid- When I talked to barnes earlier they had one other customer with the same twist barrel trying to get it to shoot the 80 grans TTX bullets but they kept key-holing, until he decided to pull the blue tip off. When he did, the bullet would stabilize and shot great out to 200+. I asked how can pulling the tip off make a difference and he was not sure but the biggest factor with these slow twist barrels is the bullet length and the speed. That is when he offered to send me out some bullets for testing and to pull the tips off and see what happens.

 

[JimP]

If pulling the tips off of the bullets help then you might want to try the 85 grain Barnes TSX bullet that doesn't have the tip.

 

[mcseal2]

I have shot a light 7mm-08 and thought it kicked quite a bit. If you get a Tikka though you can put a limbsaver pad on it that should really help. The one I shot didn't have a good pad.

The 6mm and 243 are favorites of mine. I use them quite a bit during our doe season where I can be more particular about shot angle. I like to use a 264 win or 270 during buck season so I can use a long 140gr bullet for the quartering shots.

I agree with an earlier post mentioning the 85gr Sierra as a good one with good shot placement. I've taken a bunch of coyotes with it and it has always exited at any angle. I've taken quite a few deer with it also and it has done real well. Just stay in the lungs and off the shoulder and it will do it's job. I've switched from it to the 90gr accubond since it came out for a little more BC and toughness, and it does great. It might be to long for your twist though, same with the 87gr Berger VLD Hunting. I really like the 100gr Sierra Gameking or Nosler Partition from the 243 or 6mm as a deer bullet but your gun probably won't like them.

I haven't tried any of the Barnes bullets mentioned. I have tried the Hornady 80gr GMX and 85gr Interbond and really hoped they would shoot well but my rifles didn't like them. I never used them on game.

Recoil with the lighter bullets from a 6mm should be really easy for a young shooter. My wife likes to shoot my 6mm.

If you do decide to buy a new rifle the 25-06 might be worth a look also. It's velocity makes for a long maximum point blank range (MPBR) and can help build confidence for a young shooter. I know several people who started out on a 25-06 for deer and varmints around home, then added a 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag later when they started hunting elk or other larger game. It made for a nice flat shooting pair of rifles capable of anything most hunters ever do.

 

[Musket Man]

Is your gun actually a 244 Remington? It is identical to the 6mm but had the 1-12 twist and could not stabilize heavier bullets. The 6mm should have a 1-9 twist.