How do Bulls attract Cows
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Elkcrazedfrk
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- Feb 21, 2011
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Actually the cows attract the bulls when they go into estrus. Once the bull has his herum of cows he will call them back to him with different types of bugles should they get split up. To take advantage, Spend time in the woods with the elk,learn how to call properly if your going to use that strategy. The elk around here are getting very very call savy from many hunters educating them with their attempts at sounding like an elk. That doesn't mean you cant call em in if you know what your doing. I've had way better luck letting the elk call me into them. Once I'm in their circle, i let the situation dictate whether I'm gonna bugle,cow call, or just sneak in for the shot.
i see your point there but it is my understanding that the cow chooses the bull so...would not the chosen
bulls have favorable charactaristics and sounds to a receptive cows liking over other bulls in the area? if so that bull has to have something that the cow likes and attracted her to him ultimately.
bulls have favorable charactaristics and sounds to a receptive cows liking over other bulls in the area? if so that bull has to have something that the cow likes and attracted her to him ultimately.
THEBUGLER
Member
Branch bulls usually summer away from the cows. As the rut draws near, bachelor herds of branch bulls will disband, start rubbing and bugling, to advertise their location to cows while they search for those cows. As the estrus cycle approaches, bulls and cows double their efforts in finding each other. Sometimes an inferior bull will find the cows first and will try his best to get the deed done, but if a more dominant bull enters the scene the lesser bull or bulls will be driven away, and he will wait in the wings for his shot that may never come. That's when you find groups of spikes that have been kicked to the curb until the rut is over and they can reunite with their mommy. Sometimes spikes never reunite, and wander seeking their own fortune. If its a very large herd of cows there may be many satellite bulls dogging the herd, and even breeding cows when the herd bull is preoccupied with fending off other bulls. Some times where the elk numbers are low the lesser bull will keep moving looking for his own cows again, or even keeping them and breeding them if they aren't found by a more dominant bull. That's the run down of what Ive seen in the areas where "I" hunt, and I'm sure other hunters have had many neat and different experiences in their areas.
Elkcrazedfrk
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- Feb 21, 2011
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Its been my expierence that the herd bulls will actually allow the lesser bulls to hang with the cows early on prior to the heat of the rut. The younger bulls will march around acting the role of the big dog but as soon as the cow(s) come into estrus the big boys will move in and push off the satelites. The cows attract the bulls, the herd bull then fights to keep his cows. You really dont see the cows running off to another bull unless that bull sneaks in and pushes her away or whips the herd bull for rights to that group of cows.
ElkNut1
New Member
Trophyhill, can you be more specific?-------- Good info being shared here as to the gathering process, Bulls come to the Cows as their Testosterone levels rise & they feel urges of the rut increase, some escalate quicker than others as they are not programmed robots! Sorta like teenagers! Watch cats & dogs as well, it's the males that travel great distances as a females scent can get into the air! (grin) As cows start showing the early signs of estrus this can & does attract bulls towards them, the cows do not start seeking out bulls as a rule. Sure they will be attracted to bulls once the bulls have made themselves available by some leaving bachelor groups while other smaller bachelor groups will stay intact & head to where the cow groups are. Many of these groups can entertain 1-5 bulls as they all are with these cows! These bulls are all tolerated within this group until these cows show real breeding is needed, this is when more dominant bulls can show on the scene & all will know their station or pecking order & where they stand in the scheme of things!
This can vary from area to area as not every area supports big dominant bulls because of heavy hunting pressure. So as some herds may have bigger bulls there are only so many to go around & it's common to see 5X5 as the herd bull throughout Sept. where bull to cow ratio's suffer. This is especially so on OTC public Land hunts.
Is your question though more of one how does a bull without cows try & attract cows their way?
ElkNut1
This can vary from area to area as not every area supports big dominant bulls because of heavy hunting pressure. So as some herds may have bigger bulls there are only so many to go around & it's common to see 5X5 as the herd bull throughout Sept. where bull to cow ratio's suffer. This is especially so on OTC public Land hunts.
Is your question though more of one how does a bull without cows try & attract cows their way?
ElkNut1
Is your question though more of one how does a bull without cows try & attract cows their way?
ElkNut1
in a nutshell, yes. great responses so far though. i was under the impression that the cow chooses the bull she wants to breed with so my thought process in my little elkbrain took me to the conclusion that if this is true, the bull has to do something to attract the cow(s) to him.
ElkNut1
in a nutshell, yes. great responses so far though. i was under the impression that the cow chooses the bull she wants to breed with so my thought process in my little elkbrain took me to the conclusion that if this is true, the bull has to do something to attract the cow(s) to him.
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HuntinMontucky
New Member
- Feb 21, 2011
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Yeah i've always thought the cows attract the bulls but the bulls will then choose which cow he wants by running off the ones he's not interested in, maybe they are not hot enough yet? After he has chose which cows will be part of his harem this is when learning the different calling techniques becomes crucial! One trick i've learned to beat the call shy bulls is use reeds, most anyone can use a Primos "flute" but not everyone can use reeds, you can manipulate the sounds so much more with reeds and sound like a variety of animals with one tiny call, not only does this save on weight its also not so much of a pain in the butt fumbling with calls! We used this tactic all last season and we were calling in bulls left and right while others went all season in the same area without hearing a bugle!
TwoBear
New Member
Trophyhill, lets back up just a bit. In general, cows are attracted to a specific bull via his precieved fitness to supply quality genetics. Large antlers indicate a bull is able to procure enough minerals and protein to sustain quality antler growth. It also indicates an abilty to preserve through winters, follow migration patterns, avoid predators etc. Antler is what is termed as a "luxury tissue". That is biologically antler growth is a non-priority tissue. A bull must first be able to supply his bodies priority needs, so large antlers indicate over all fitness. Bugles, in general, indicate to cows that a bull may or may not be worth having a look at. Most herd bulls bugle a great deal to "imprint" thier bugles on their cows. However, large antlers and robust bugles alone do not dictate herd bull status, the willingness and abilty to defend the harem against competitor bulls is imperative. Bulls defend the harem in two ways, either by physically pushing cows away from competition, or by fighting rival bulls off physically or with threats. Cows through the selection process want to breed with the best representive of the species they can. This is where Elknuts theory of cow call aways comes in.
Chris Roe
New Member
Trophyhill - per your question regarding what makes a BULL attractive to a COW...
A lot depends on age structure and sex ratio of the herd you're interested in, and what stage of her "choice" you're talking about when a COW is settling on a BULL.
If you're talking about approaching/staying within a harem - in general - a cow will "choose" the bull that:
1) ACTS the most dominant within the area; and
2) Provides the greatest level of "protection" while allowing the maximum amount of "freedom" and "peace" on a daily basis.
While there's also the habitat component to it, that's a bit more complicated and a bigger discussion - BUT - those two things are what attract a cow to a bull INITIALLY. There used to be those (Val Geist and others) that thought the size and symmetry of antlers also played into a cow's "choice", but I think when you compare typical antlers with non-typical antlers, behavior wins every time; the cow will choose substance over looks.
In some areas, a small 5x5 may provide the highest degree of protection from harassment from other bulls. In other areas, older age-class animals, and larger antlered animals may be the bulls that offer the greatest level of protection. COWS WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE!!! ...they'll initially gravitate to those bulls that will ENSURE that to the greatest extent. I used the word "ACTS" most dominant, because in some populations, the ACTUAL dominant bulls (often older age-class bulls) don't participate in rounding up/keeping harems. They stay in the "shadows" so-to-speak, and don't show up until there's a cow ready to breed - like others on here have said. If a bull like that isn't willing to provide a cow the protection from harassment she seeks, she'll settle on the next-best option.
Sometimes the bulls that cows are attracted to are vocal and aggressive. Sometimes they're more the type that "run and hide" at the first sign of a fight. ...here, the personality of the COW can play into her choosing a bull that fits her personality the best.
What attracts the cow to a bull when its time to BREED is pretty straight forward: she will choose the biggest, strongest, most dominant bull she has at her disposal at the TIME she's ready to breed. Cows won't CHOOSE to miss an estrous cycle just to hold out for a better bull; their first priority is to BREED, then its to "breed with the best." So...if a small 5x5 is the one that provides her the protection she needs day-to-day, and he's the one there when she cycles in - his hard work typically gets to pay off. If, however, she starts to cycle in, and an older age-class, bigger, more dominant bull walks in (or is close enough for her to run out and rendezvous with) - sorry, Charlie!!!!
In areas with diverse age structures, typically the more dominant animals hold the most cows, with subordinate bulls playing the "satellite" roll. In areas with skewed age structures (many OTC areas where the bull population is typically 3.5 years of age or less), you can find cows in one of two types of harems: small harems with a "smaller" bull, with multiple harems all scattered across the landscape, or in GIANT harems all concentrated around one older - typically very aggressive - bull. These groups/this type of bull can sometimes be the HARDEST to kill!!!!!
Good discussion!
Chris Roe
Roe Hunting Resources
A lot depends on age structure and sex ratio of the herd you're interested in, and what stage of her "choice" you're talking about when a COW is settling on a BULL.
If you're talking about approaching/staying within a harem - in general - a cow will "choose" the bull that:
1) ACTS the most dominant within the area; and
2) Provides the greatest level of "protection" while allowing the maximum amount of "freedom" and "peace" on a daily basis.
While there's also the habitat component to it, that's a bit more complicated and a bigger discussion - BUT - those two things are what attract a cow to a bull INITIALLY. There used to be those (Val Geist and others) that thought the size and symmetry of antlers also played into a cow's "choice", but I think when you compare typical antlers with non-typical antlers, behavior wins every time; the cow will choose substance over looks.
In some areas, a small 5x5 may provide the highest degree of protection from harassment from other bulls. In other areas, older age-class animals, and larger antlered animals may be the bulls that offer the greatest level of protection. COWS WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE!!! ...they'll initially gravitate to those bulls that will ENSURE that to the greatest extent. I used the word "ACTS" most dominant, because in some populations, the ACTUAL dominant bulls (often older age-class bulls) don't participate in rounding up/keeping harems. They stay in the "shadows" so-to-speak, and don't show up until there's a cow ready to breed - like others on here have said. If a bull like that isn't willing to provide a cow the protection from harassment she seeks, she'll settle on the next-best option.
Sometimes the bulls that cows are attracted to are vocal and aggressive. Sometimes they're more the type that "run and hide" at the first sign of a fight. ...here, the personality of the COW can play into her choosing a bull that fits her personality the best.
What attracts the cow to a bull when its time to BREED is pretty straight forward: she will choose the biggest, strongest, most dominant bull she has at her disposal at the TIME she's ready to breed. Cows won't CHOOSE to miss an estrous cycle just to hold out for a better bull; their first priority is to BREED, then its to "breed with the best." So...if a small 5x5 is the one that provides her the protection she needs day-to-day, and he's the one there when she cycles in - his hard work typically gets to pay off. If, however, she starts to cycle in, and an older age-class, bigger, more dominant bull walks in (or is close enough for her to run out and rendezvous with) - sorry, Charlie!!!!
In areas with diverse age structures, typically the more dominant animals hold the most cows, with subordinate bulls playing the "satellite" roll. In areas with skewed age structures (many OTC areas where the bull population is typically 3.5 years of age or less), you can find cows in one of two types of harems: small harems with a "smaller" bull, with multiple harems all scattered across the landscape, or in GIANT harems all concentrated around one older - typically very aggressive - bull. These groups/this type of bull can sometimes be the HARDEST to kill!!!!!
Good discussion!
Chris Roe
Roe Hunting Resources
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ElkNut1
New Member
Chris as usual brings up some good points! But just so no one is confused, Bulls come down to or over their way to the cows! In other words these bachelor groups are generally separated from the cow groups. It is very common to find these bulls much higher in elevation where applies, during the Summer months. These bulls will at their own pace will make their way down to these cow groups, the cows do not go & seek out the bulls until the bulls come into their areas I believe what Chris is saying is that the cows will choose the bull they allow to breed them. In many cases more than one bull will breed a cow in the 12-16 hours she is in heat or estrus.
Of course once these herd bulls establish themselves with a group no matter the size of these groups they can move anywhere even back to where the bulls came from if hunting pressure of sorts forces them to do so! The cows inherently will start seeking out their breeding grounds, this is generally in the areas they were born in. This is especially notable in non-hunting areas where elk are free to roam naturally without intrusion. Too, in these areas you will see these cow groups stay right in those vicinities they've been in all Summer as Bulls start to show on the scene that were not there previous to pre-rut!
Again, very good info related by all.
ElkNut1
Of course once these herd bulls establish themselves with a group no matter the size of these groups they can move anywhere even back to where the bulls came from if hunting pressure of sorts forces them to do so! The cows inherently will start seeking out their breeding grounds, this is generally in the areas they were born in. This is especially notable in non-hunting areas where elk are free to roam naturally without intrusion. Too, in these areas you will see these cow groups stay right in those vicinities they've been in all Summer as Bulls start to show on the scene that were not there previous to pre-rut!
Again, very good info related by all.
ElkNut1
Chris Roe
New Member
I wondered if this was where this thread was headed...
What I stated in response to the question ASKED wasn't (I don't think) confusing, and I wasn't "trying" to say anything other than what I did say. If you're going to incorporate my information into your statements and "educational efforts", I need to correct a few things...
While yes, in SOME habitats, in SOME elk populations, bulls move from their summer areas TO the cow/calf summer ranges:
1) that move in itself doesn't predispose a cow into accepting a bull simply because he "showed up from somewhere else"; and
2) there are MANY habitats and populations where elk AREN'T separated in the "high country" from one another, and where bulls and cows may, in fact, occupy the same or immediately adjacent areas from spring, into summer, into fall, into winter.
Yes, there are times/places where a bull comes out of his high country summer area, heads out to make contact with the cow/calf groups in their high country summer area, "takes charge" of a group of cows, and everyone's happy. However, you are flat out WRONG in saying cows don't go out and seek bulls if:
1) they don't have a bull willing or able to protect them; or
2) there's a more dominant bull in an adjacent harem that is a better sire, and that they might be able to sneak off to and "rendezvous" with.
While cow elk "rendezvous" may not be the NORM in many areas, it's COMPLETELY dependent upon the population of animals in question. What IS much more common, is a cow/group of cows evaluating a bull based on their perception of whether or not THAT bull can, or will, offer them protection, and if he has what it takes to get the job done on the first estrous cycle.
Too many times I've watched radio-collared elk move from one bull/harem to the next, from one basin to the next, in search of a "worthy" bull. Likewise, there are some low-elevation herds in thick Ponderosa Pine/Oak brush habitats were the BULLS actually stay in one spot, and the entire COW/CALF population drops down into the canyons and valleys to engage them. Once the cows drop in, its a MAD HOUSE of activity as bulls and cows get themselves separated out.
If you want to talk about "elk movement" and the like - fine, we can do that. The question, though, was what made a BULL attractive to a COW. Regardless of habitat, regardless of what State you're in, and - even largely regardless of the population you're dealing with, a COW is going to evaluate two things: can the bull provide protection/sanctuary from harassment, and can he get the job done when the time comes. Sometimes, she HAS to settle with what she's got to work with. Other times, she's got options! ...and when she's got options, 99.9% she's going to EXERCISE those options!
Chris Roe
What I stated in response to the question ASKED wasn't (I don't think) confusing, and I wasn't "trying" to say anything other than what I did say. If you're going to incorporate my information into your statements and "educational efforts", I need to correct a few things...
While yes, in SOME habitats, in SOME elk populations, bulls move from their summer areas TO the cow/calf summer ranges:
1) that move in itself doesn't predispose a cow into accepting a bull simply because he "showed up from somewhere else"; and
2) there are MANY habitats and populations where elk AREN'T separated in the "high country" from one another, and where bulls and cows may, in fact, occupy the same or immediately adjacent areas from spring, into summer, into fall, into winter.
Yes, there are times/places where a bull comes out of his high country summer area, heads out to make contact with the cow/calf groups in their high country summer area, "takes charge" of a group of cows, and everyone's happy. However, you are flat out WRONG in saying cows don't go out and seek bulls if:
1) they don't have a bull willing or able to protect them; or
2) there's a more dominant bull in an adjacent harem that is a better sire, and that they might be able to sneak off to and "rendezvous" with.
While cow elk "rendezvous" may not be the NORM in many areas, it's COMPLETELY dependent upon the population of animals in question. What IS much more common, is a cow/group of cows evaluating a bull based on their perception of whether or not THAT bull can, or will, offer them protection, and if he has what it takes to get the job done on the first estrous cycle.
Too many times I've watched radio-collared elk move from one bull/harem to the next, from one basin to the next, in search of a "worthy" bull. Likewise, there are some low-elevation herds in thick Ponderosa Pine/Oak brush habitats were the BULLS actually stay in one spot, and the entire COW/CALF population drops down into the canyons and valleys to engage them. Once the cows drop in, its a MAD HOUSE of activity as bulls and cows get themselves separated out.
If you want to talk about "elk movement" and the like - fine, we can do that. The question, though, was what made a BULL attractive to a COW. Regardless of habitat, regardless of what State you're in, and - even largely regardless of the population you're dealing with, a COW is going to evaluate two things: can the bull provide protection/sanctuary from harassment, and can he get the job done when the time comes. Sometimes, she HAS to settle with what she's got to work with. Other times, she's got options! ...and when she's got options, 99.9% she's going to EXERCISE those options!
Chris Roe
ElkNut1
New Member
When answering questions related to elk movement I believe all will agree there's nothing written in stone! Of course there are always extenuating situations where elk will do things out of the norm. But as a rule, the bulls will come looking for the cows where ever that may be. The difference here is that from a norms standpoint it is not common for cows to travel miles looking for the bulls in times of breeding. This doesn't mean to imply that it will never happen but it is more unusual when it does. Once the bulls make themselves available then "yes" the cows will seek out these more dominant featured bulls that the area has to offer! We are speaking here form a hunting standpoint & want to know what info may give us the best odds in elk habits & mannerisms, we want to play the odds!
It's like playing the odds in a poker game, sure you can win a hand you're losing by hitting the river card, but odds are low & nothing you could rely on in every hand! Play solid hands, understand the game & you can do well.
Same as elk hunting, if we can have a general knowledge of the quarry we are after & sharpen our skills at it we can do well, this doesn't mean they won't throw us a curve now & then but those percentages are low in comparison to their more predictable traits! Have A Great Day Guys!
ElkNut1
It's like playing the odds in a poker game, sure you can win a hand you're losing by hitting the river card, but odds are low & nothing you could rely on in every hand! Play solid hands, understand the game & you can do well.
Same as elk hunting, if we can have a general knowledge of the quarry we are after & sharpen our skills at it we can do well, this doesn't mean they won't throw us a curve now & then but those percentages are low in comparison to their more predictable traits! Have A Great Day Guys!
ElkNut1
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Elknut,
I'm not sure what little honey-hole you hunt in where the cows stay put nice as you please and just wait for the bulls, but I have frequently observed while hunting the rut that the cows are the ones covering country... Anyone who actually knows anything about hunting elk - especially at high elevation when you can literally watch them walk for miles and miles - knows that the matriarchal cow leads the herd, particularly when there isn't yet a big herd bull trying to keep them sequestered. Again, the elk may act differently in the very limited spot where you hunt, but at least where I and everyone else I have ever known hunts, you are not describing "the norm."
It seems like you just wanted to butt in and sound like the resident expert here just for the sake of so doing...
I'm not sure what little honey-hole you hunt in where the cows stay put nice as you please and just wait for the bulls, but I have frequently observed while hunting the rut that the cows are the ones covering country... Anyone who actually knows anything about hunting elk - especially at high elevation when you can literally watch them walk for miles and miles - knows that the matriarchal cow leads the herd, particularly when there isn't yet a big herd bull trying to keep them sequestered. Again, the elk may act differently in the very limited spot where you hunt, but at least where I and everyone else I have ever known hunts, you are not describing "the norm."
It seems like you just wanted to butt in and sound like the resident expert here just for the sake of so doing...
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Elkcrazedfrk
Active Member
- Feb 21, 2011
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No,it wasn't necessary. Lets keep it on the positive side ehh??? There have been alot of very good points mentioned by both Chris and elknut. The biggest being "Nothing is set in stone" when it comes to elk. I think we all can learn from some of the above mentioned. So, as the old adage goes "If you dont have anything nice to say.........."
HuntinMontucky
New Member
- Feb 21, 2011
- 30
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HuntinKid, this forum was put in place for passionate hunters to have a place to gather, passionate debate is one thing, personal attacks is uncalled for man! I actually thought Elknut had a great point, and lets be honest elk can be different from drainage to drainage not to mention state to state so its obvious we all might disagree to a point, he who think he has the Wapiti down to a science WILL get schooled at some point!
Not a personal attack at all. Elknut is just wrong and heaven forbid I call him on it. I would hate for a new hunter to try to come to this forum to learn something and come away with nothing but misinformation. That is the problem with public forums - every yahoo who has ever picked up a gun or bow somehow thinks that makes them an expert. The other problem with public forums is we have no idea who anyone else is (well except for Chris Roe - he at least identifies himself and posts his street creds). You all could all be related or buddies for all the rest of us know and are just feeding each other posts and kudos just to try to fool the rest of us. I was hoping for a little better on this new forum... Apparently, I was wrong. It has already devolved into another group of cronies all patting each other on the back and acting like the others walk on water.