Is this poaching punishment enough?

lukew

Administrator
Jul 1, 2019
255
276
POACHING PUNISHMENTS: Does The Species Make A Difference? – Todd Helms

If you’ve been paying attention to my many rants on poachers over the years you know that I’m all for stiff punishments in deliberate and heinous poaching cases. I’m talking about the deliberate theft of wildlife from the public trust, not about the hunter who accidentally kills a hen pheasant or a sub-legal mule deer buck and reports themselves. Honest mistakes happen but premeditated acts of poaching, no matter the motive, are exactly what I labeled them above, theft, plain and simple.
That said, I cannot help but having noticed some disparities in punishments between types of game animals. This past week I posted the results of a waterfowl poaching case from Michigan on the Wingmen Facebook Page. It received a ton of traffic and generated a lot of comments, spurring some excellent dialogue. The case in question was most certainly premeditated and a piggish display of human greed as the three poachers killed birds far in excess of their bag limits. The punishments include nearly $20k in restitution, permanent forfeiture of the guns used and the loss of hunting rights for roughly one year. I personally think they got off easy! That said, the day after I posted the news release on Facebook another Michigan poaching case popped up, this time it was an elk poaching case.
Now before some of you walk away saying, “Michigan? Who cares?” I think it’s important to note that cases like these happen all across the country and are perhaps more impactful in the West as our big game herds produce vast amounts of monetary value for the states in which they reside making losing animals to poaching a pretty serious cut out of local economies. But here’s where my real question comes to bear. The elk poachers in Michigan are serving six months probation, loss of hunting privileges for 15 years (which I do not believe works, these aren’t hunters to begin with), and a $625 fine. They must also reimburse the people of Michigan $5K for the three elk killed.
Shut The Front Door!!! $5625.00 for poaching three elk in a state whose total elk population lives in an area smaller than Park County, Wyoming? The waterfowl poachers have to pay roughly four times that much for killing over their limits on a baited hunting site.
Now, I realize there are federal components to the waterfowl poaching case as any migratory bird poaching is subject to federal regulations but how in the world does the punishment fit the crime here?
Let’s just focus on the money, as the loss of hunting privileges is a joke to people like this, they will still “hunt” every year. $20K in fines is a lot of dough however, and is truly impactful. Toss in some serious jail time and community service and we’re getting somewhere.
The question remains though, why did the elk poachers get off so easy? I think it’s time that ALL states take a tougher stance on ALL kinds of poaching. Massive fines, equipment forfeiture, jail time and community service for Game and Fish related projects… you steal from the people, you pay the people back with the sweat of your brow!
So here’s my call to action… we can make this a reality if we communicate with our legislators and game and fish directors and commissioners and judges. Until we get tough on poachers we will continue to lose precious natural resources like game birds and big game animals to the grasping paws of criminals who fear no retribution. Make it hurt and make them safe!
34214
 

Bullcan

Member
Oct 6, 2016
78
27
Both of these cases received quite a bit of press here in Michigan. You are right, the Elk poachers got off way to easy. I have applied for an elk tag for 20 or so years and have max bonus points and to be honest I would be surprised to ever draw an elk tag, but there is always hope. The herd here in MI is around 1000 animals, and anyone illegally taking an elk hurts, no doubt. Some jail time and much more heavy fines would have been more appropriate. Until jail time comes into the equation, it seems a lot of poachers view the fines as the cost of doing business.
Keep in mind these are very public cases and there is a lot of more subtle poaching going on that never sees the light of day. We as hunters can have a very direct impact on it. I remember some years back asking someone if they drew a fall turkey tag, and his response was he didn't need one. If, when he was bowhunting deer, he saw a turkey, he would just shoot, tag or not. He thought it was funny until I responded it was flat out poaching to do that. He stammered something under his breath and moved on. The point is, when you are talking to another hunter and they talk about skirting around the law, just don't sit there, point it out to them that what they are contemplating is illegal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THelms

mallardsx2

Veteran member
Jul 8, 2015
3,904
3,218
Being a lifelong waterfowl hunter, I heard of plenty of people who were up to no good. Some guys dont know when enough is enough.

For instance, I saw one group of guys shoot way over their limit of blackducks up on lake Ontario one morning. By pure chance, they had the man waiting on them at the ramp. On the flip side of that, there wasn't a safe out of state truck in that parking lot for the following 2 years.

Heavy fines, loss of licenses, and an open sale of seized equipment should be applied across all forms of wildlife IMHO.

See a poacher or someone breaking laws, turn them in. Its the right thing to do. If you dont, it will only get worse.

The amount of poaching that goes on in GA would blow your minds. The fines in GA are a mere slap on the wrist. The fines "out west" are MUCH stiffer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THelms

Maxhunter

Veteran member
Apr 10, 2011
1,429
1,076
Wyoming
I've seen way to many a get a light slap on the hand when it comes to poaching. These individuals poach because there greedy and slob hunters IMO. I'm not sure how anyone could be proud of taking something illegal and out of season.

I live in Cheyenne and there is a mountain range less than 30 minutes from town. Back in the 80-90's it was a very popular place to hunt for big mule deer bucks. It's been poached so bad that there just isn't the quality of bucks there use to be.

The laws need to be stiff and make an example out of these individuals in my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THelms

JimP

Administrator
Mar 28, 2016
7,313
8,693
72
Gypsum, Co
I have yet to see a poaching case get settled with the type of punishment that I think that they actually deserve. Even healthy fines are just a slap on the wrist when you come down to it. And until some good jail time that has to be served I don't think that much is going to be done as far as stopping the poaching. I could careless if it is a rabbit or a trophy bull elk, poaching is poaching.

The other day while I was waiting in line for my Covid shot I saw on of the older retired CP&W enforcement officers a couple of places ahead of me. Once we got our shots we had the 15 minute waiting period so I walked over and sat down next to him just to have a talk.. He has been out of the office for close to 15 years now but he does keep up on a lot of things. I remembered that he was the primary officer when a person got caught hauling 15 deer off of the mountain to the west of my home one winter and asked him what ever happened to the person that got caught. He just laughed. They had tried to get the truck forfeited along with the rifle and a couple of handguns that were in the truck. All that the county DA agreed to was the single rifle and a fine. He couldn't remember just how much of a fine it was but he wasn't happy about it. They also just placed the person on probation for a number of years. He did mention that a few years later that the same person was caught in a neighboring county with a truck load of deer again. He didn't say just what happened to that case.
 

HuskyMusky

Veteran member
Nov 29, 2011
1,337
183
IL
would a felony and loss of gun rights help? hurt?

you'd think there would be some data scientists who could figure out a way to incentivize a way to stop poaching or reduce it....

maybe we can get the greenies to put up big money for poaching deterrence?
 
  • Like
Reactions: THelms and BKC

BKC

Very Active Member
Feb 15, 2012
835
163
The high plains of Colorado
would a felony and loss of gun rights help? hurt?

you'd think there would be some data scientists who could figure out a way to incentivize a way to stop poaching or reduce it....

maybe we can get the greenies to put up big money for poaching deterrence?
I would think a total confiscation of all equipment ( truck, trailer, camper, atv, guns, and gear ) and a felony would go a long way. If it goes to court, that is when the plea bargaining starts and hands get slapped. I would love to go to an auction and have a chance to buy what people hold near and dear to their hearts and have it fund some of CPW's programs.
 

AKaviator

Veteran member
Jul 26, 2012
1,819
1,084
Sentencing guidelines get complicated. First, we have to reconcile the fact that our court system is getting overburdened with cases that are genuinely a higher priority than crimes against fish and wildlife. Coupled with the fact that many violent crimes against people get lighter sentences than what we want for poaching cases.
That said, I am for mandatory minimum sentences that include jail and forfeiture of vehicles and equipment for aggravated cases.
Alaska, as I’m sure many other states do, place a monetary value on wildlife.
A moose is worth more to the state than a duck. Restitution should be automatic in sentences, including the value of all of the species taken. 20 ducks over...pay it back!
Unfortunately, sentences are generally set by legislators, who can be difficult to convince that wildlife crimes should carry harsh consequences.
 

kidoggy

Veteran member
Apr 23, 2016
9,855
10,861
58
idaho
poachers have zero respect for anything or anyone .

laws don't scare them because none of them think they'll ever get caught and even if they do . society made em do it , woah is me .

only rational coarse of action for such people is death sentence .
fines and loss of priviledges doesn't get it done.

if folks are to squeamish for the death sentence we should at the very least castrate them thus removing them from the gene pool.

most will think this to harsh. I do not!!!
 
  • Haha
Reactions: shootbrownelk

KHSRanger23

Active Member
Apr 14, 2016
198
79
Utah
Suspending or revoking hunting rights and privilege's does not cut it as a punishment. If individuals are poaching then they have past the point were they care about being a hunter. I think depending on the severity of the poaching crime the punishments should be felony charges, jail/prison time, steep fines and confiscation of all vehicle's, weapons and equipment used. For repeat offender's the punishment increases.
 

THelms

Administrator
Staff member
Both of these cases received quite a bit of press here in Michigan. You are right, the Elk poachers got off way to easy. I have applied for an elk tag for 20 or so years and have max bonus points and to be honest I would be surprised to ever draw an elk tag, but there is always hope. The herd here in MI is around 1000 animals, and anyone illegally taking an elk hurts, no doubt. Some jail time and much more heavy fines would have been more appropriate. Until jail time comes into the equation, it seems a lot of poachers view the fines as the cost of doing business.
Keep in mind these are very public cases and there is a lot of more subtle poaching going on that never sees the light of day. We as hunters can have a very direct impact on it. I remember some years back asking someone if they drew a fall turkey tag, and his response was he didn't need one. If, when he was bowhunting deer, he saw a turkey, he would just shoot, tag or not. He thought it was funny until I responded it was flat out poaching to do that. He stammered something under his breath and moved on. The point is, when you are talking to another hunter and they talk about skirting around the law, just don't sit there, point it out to them that what they are contemplating is illegal.
I agree wholeheartedly on every count! Growing up in the U.P. poaching was rampant.
 

THelms

Administrator
Staff member
I have yet to see a poaching case get settled with the type of punishment that I think that they actually deserve. Even healthy fines are just a slap on the wrist when you come down to it. And until some good jail time that has to be served I don't think that much is going to be done as far as stopping the poaching. I could careless if it is a rabbit or a trophy bull elk, poaching is poaching.

The other day while I was waiting in line for my Covid shot I saw on of the older retired CP&W enforcement officers a couple of places ahead of me. Once we got our shots we had the 15 minute waiting period so I walked over and sat down next to him just to have a talk.. He has been out of the office for close to 15 years now but he does keep up on a lot of things. I remembered that he was the primary officer when a person got caught hauling 15 deer off of the mountain to the west of my home one winter and asked him what ever happened to the person that got caught. He just laughed. They had tried to get the truck forfeited along with the rifle and a couple of handguns that were in the truck. All that the county DA agreed to was the single rifle and a fine. He couldn't remember just how much of a fine it was but he wasn't happy about it. They also just placed the person on probation for a number of years. He did mention that a few years later that the same person was caught in a neighboring county with a truck load of deer again. He didn't say just what happened to that case.
That's the thing... probation doesn't work, suspension of hunting rights doesn't work... the serious poachers are criminals, plain and simple! I'm not talking about folks shooting an extra cow elk to feed the family when they are truly in need, or someone accidentally killing one too many ducks. I'm talking serial, poachers who are calculating and in it for profit... lock em up!
 

THelms

Administrator
Staff member
I would think a total confiscation of all equipment ( truck, trailer, camper, atv, guns, and gear ) and a felony would go a long way. If it goes to court, that is when the plea bargaining starts and hands get slapped. I would love to go to an auction and have a chance to buy what people hold near and dear to their hearts and have it fund some of CPW's programs.
Judges have a lot of sway.
 

kidoggy

Veteran member
Apr 23, 2016
9,855
10,861
58
idaho
Suspending or revoking hunting rights and privilege's does not cut it as a punishment. If individuals are poaching then they have past the point were they care about being a hunter. I think depending on the severity of the poaching crime the punishments should be felony charges, jail/prison time, steep fines and confiscation of all vehicle's, weapons and equipment used. For repeat offender's the punishment increases.
I see no reason the public needs to treat them to room and board . if the incident was bad enough for jail time , simply end them and end the problem.