So I'm looking at the Elk 2014 Draw odds and I have a question. I have 6 points now and 7 points going into 2015, is it possible for me to get a general tag as a 2nd choice rifle or archery and save my points? All help is appreciated. Thanks
Wyoming Elk General Tag
- Thread starter mattdeere
- Start date
Umpqua Hunter
Veteran member
A darn good chance you would draw a general tag as a second choice IF you pay for the special license.
Topgun 30-06
Banned
Yep, more than a darn good chance as UH stated, as everyone has always drawn that tag as a second choice in the Special Draw, although the stats don't show it, and a couple years ago even some that had it as a third choice drew when the second choice pool was exhausted and there were still some tags left. It will not be drawn if you put in for the lower price regular draw. FYI if you draw that tag it is strictly for the rifle season in all the general units, but you can hunt with your bow then with no further permits needed. In order to hunt them with a bow outside those rifle season dates you would need to then buy a $30 archery permit for the early bow season dates in September. Wyoming does have a few units where there are tags strictly to hunt with a bow and they are designated as A/O (archery only) on the unit lists. Everyone, regardless of what season or what you hunt with, is required to purchase a $12.50 Conservation Stamp.
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CM_
New Member
I have seen this mentioned a couple of times on different forums, but have never been able to find the statistics to back it up. What odds are you guys looking at to determine that you can draw it 2nd choice special?
From the drawing odds on the Wyoming Game and Fish website: in the special draw for the general tag this year 1088 people put in with 0 points as 1st choice, 697 people drew in the PP draw. This left 391 1st choice applicants for 386 tags in the random draw. So as I read the stats, 5 people who put in 1st choice special with 0 points didn't draw, and none of the 468 people who put in as 2nd choice special drew. I must be missing something, I apologize in advance for my ignorance!
From the drawing odds on the Wyoming Game and Fish website: in the special draw for the general tag this year 1088 people put in with 0 points as 1st choice, 697 people drew in the PP draw. This left 391 1st choice applicants for 386 tags in the random draw. So as I read the stats, 5 people who put in 1st choice special with 0 points didn't draw, and none of the 468 people who put in as 2nd choice special drew. I must be missing something, I apologize in advance for my ignorance!
Topgun 30-06
Banned
It's not ignorance on your part! It's because the G&F doesn't post the entire process in that draw odds section of the website. As I stated in my earlier post, the stats we're able to look at and that you quoted do not show that everyone got the general tag on their second choice because they just show the completed initial draws. After those initial draws we're looking at are done, if the G&F hasn't issued the minimum total number of elk tags the statute requires to NRs, they go back into the Special Draw pool and issue the number required as General tags. Every year so far they have had to issue quite a few more tags to meet that minimum number and to do that they fill the Special Draw second choice requests. A couple years ago there were even a decent number tags issued to third choice applicants to get up to that minimum number. It just depends on how many tags they have to issue to get to that minimum number required to be issued to NRs each year. So far they have had enough tags to satisfy all second choice Special draw requests. Each year the percentage will depend on how many tags need to be issued after the initial draws to get to that minimum number and how many requests there are left in that second choice draw pool. Right now it's been 100%, but in the next few years it is possible it could drop below that. However, it should stay up at or near the 100% figure unless some drastic changes happen.
CM_
New Member
So to look at the actual chance of drawing the tag Special 2nd choice one would have to find the number of minimum total elk tags the state requires to NRs, and subtract the total number of elk tags issued from this required number? (then compare the remaining number of tags to how many people applied 2nd choice special)
That is a very interesting "loop hole". Just out of curiosity, off the top of your head do you know if they publish information/numbers on this process anywhere? I looked through the WGFD regulations but didn't find anything.
Thanks, a lot! No one has ever laid out exactly how that works.
That is a very interesting "loop hole". Just out of curiosity, off the top of your head do you know if they publish information/numbers on this process anywhere? I looked through the WGFD regulations but didn't find anything.
Thanks, a lot! No one has ever laid out exactly how that works.
CM_
New Member
I found some information in this document: http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/imgs/QRDocs/REGULATIONS_CH44.pdf
on page 44-11.
It says: "...If the seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) license quota is not issued in the initial
nonresident drawings, the Department may achieve the seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) license
quota by issuing general elk licenses."
It doesn't explicitly say that they go to the NR special applicants, but it makes sense that they would to maximize revenue.
on page 44-11.
It says: "...If the seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) license quota is not issued in the initial
nonresident drawings, the Department may achieve the seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) license
quota by issuing general elk licenses."
It doesn't explicitly say that they go to the NR special applicants, but it makes sense that they would to maximize revenue.
Topgun 30-06
Banned
I guess the basic answer to your first question would be yes if you wanted to take the time to go through every unit in the draw odds and totaled up the number of tags issued to then subtract that total from the minimum number they have to issue. However, you can't then just go to the second choice pool unless there were no first choice applicants left that didn't get tags. The G&F would satisfy all those applicants before the went to the second choice pool and then possibly the third choice pool like they did a couple years ago. Doing what you're saying really would be a waste of time IMHO because the following year will be different, although somewhat similar. All you really need to know is what I mentioned in my earlier posts.
It's not really a loophole, but rather that most people just don't know why all those second choice applicants are getting tags when the list on the site shows what it does and would make them ask the exact question(s) you are! No, there is nothing on the website anywhere that speaks to what we're talking about. Sorry, but I can't remember the exact number of NR tags the statute requires to be issued each year. WapitiBob or someone else that knows may read this and be able to answer that question. Yes, you should be able to get that other draw information that I mentioned from the G&F Licensing Section, but it would be of no use and probably why they don't show that final pass to issue those tags because you would either know you were successful or not on your private account as soon as they post the draw results in February. That information, just like all the other draw odds, would vary from year to year and really isn't much use other than to know what I've stated is how those extra tags get issued. Looking at the draw odds is helpful, but you can't truly rely on them when you apply because you have no idea how many people will apply for a given tag in any one year with a certain number of PPs, especially with people that have banked PPs suddenly jumping into the draw process that you might not have figured on or changing their choices from year to year when they dont get drawn the preceeding year. Thus what is called point creep in the draw process that we are seeing more of as we're now into eight years of the NR PP method.
Topgun 30-06
Banned
I tell you what if you come out to California I will take you Duck or pheasant hunting. that's gotta be better than money.
WapitiBob
Veteran member
Topgun 30-06
Banned
Thanks WB! That's what I was thinking, but I didn't want to throw out a number without being 100% sure on it.
gonhunting247
Veteran member
- Jan 21, 2014
- 1,216
- 797
Dang, I wish I had some of that info for you!
Thanks to everyone for the info, that answers a ton of questions I had also!