Weather and antelope Horn growth

[Fish]

Whats the weather been like so far in central WY? Is it looking like a dry spring and summer. Do you think there will be real good horn growth in antelope this year? I may be hunting around the 10 sleeps area. Its a lot of money to apply with the special tag so I'd like to do it when I have a better chance at a good buck.

Thank you.

 

[Hilltop]

Here is a pretty good resource to monitor. https://www.drought.gov/drought/states/wyoming

It's looking pretty normal so far. No reason not to apply at this point.

 

[HiMtnHnter]

From what I've seen its pretty good. There are lots of variables to consider if you are into exactly what affects horn growth in a given year. Not only is current year weather important, but how the weather was 3-5 years ago when bucks were born. Then there are local differences with weather and the area's history and likelihood of bigger horns. Overall though, as a general statement from what i have seen, horns are looking pretty good.

 

[wy-tex]

You should be good, we had a mild winter with pretty good conditions for top of the horn growth, prongs and up down here in SC Wyo and they have had a little more rain this spring up there. Our pronghorns are looking good around Laramie with good tops and a little growth below yet to happen. Seeing some good heavy prongs and good length.
If they had little winterkill you will be looking at some good bucks this fall.

 

[Maxhunter]

It's been a pretty mild winter. Right now we're getting a lot spring rain. Here's an article from Eastman on horn growth.

http://blog.eastmans.com/antelope-horn-growth-an-american-original/

 

[ppine]

Antelope have horns that shed the sheath, but no antlers. Their horns are affected by conditions over their whole lifetimes, not just one year. Genetics are really important. In Wyoming there are a lot of 17 inch critters around. By the time they get to be 18 inches, or 20 inches you can not get anywhere near them without a really long stalk. They spook at the drop of the hat.

 

[hoshour]

Genetics get way too much credit. To hear some people, genetics and rainfall are all that matter, but that's not the case. Usually "great genetics" is attributed to areas that produce more big bucks. But using Carbon County as an example, it produces big antelope and deer, not so much because of genetics but because it has the soil, minerals and forage to grow big headgear, not to mention limited tags and some measure of protection that the checkerboard affords antelope because it makes it so hard to hunt.

Not saying that genetics play no role, because in other species transplants from one area to another continue to show some relation, but more important are soil with good minerals, high quality forage, the population being below the nutritional carrying capacity of the range, moisture for good forage in the year in question, seclusion, amount of hunting pressure, severity of summer and winter before the late spring in which they were born because it affected the mother's health and thus the newborn size of the buck and his future potential. Last is current year rainfall and snowpack.

I'm glad to hear this year is shaping up pretty well so far.

 

[BuzzH]

Totally disagree with the last post.

Not very many bucks, even given ideal conditions, will ever make a B&C buck...just a fact and that's primarily due to genetics. Even in the areas that produce high numbers of B&C bucks, it sure isn't like you're swimming through 82 inch bucks to get to the 85 inchers.

How many humans are there over 6 feet? Quite a few. How many over 6 feet two inches? Still quite a few but less. How about over 6 feet 5 inches? Yeah, even less...even with "good" conditions.

Antelope are no different. Most bucks will make 70 inches of horn...quite a few will make 75...some will make 78, but very few will make 80...and a lot fewer yet will make 82.

IMO/E great conditions may push a 79 inch buck to 80...but if a buck doesn't have great genetics from the start, I don't care how good the conditions, it wont ever make a B&C buck.

That's across the board with all species...elk, deer, sheep, moose, etc. etc. etc.

 

[hoshour]

There are way more variables with wild animals than with humans where they have pretty much optimal conditions in comparison. If humans were in tremendous danger of being shot at any time and needed seclusion, if they had to survive winter without a cabin or a fire, ate plants off the ground instead of picking items from a supermarket shelf and their mother's condition at birth varied as much as as it does in the wild, and if humans grew antlers whose potential size was limited by their birth weight, etc. then genetics would be a bigger deal, but you are really talking apples and oranges.

We're also talking about two different things. I'm talking about the number of trophy bucks in an area, what areas produce the most entries, as in my Carbon Co. example, you're talking more about individual animals.

I do agree with you that there is variation between animals. Not every animal in an area has the potential to be a monster buck, but talking about area to area, I don't think genetics of the population in a given area plays the giant role most hunters assign to it.

The biologists I talk to lately are much more talking about the factors I mentioned. Dr. Kevin Monteith at the U of Wyoming has written on the nutrition - horn size connection. See if you can find a link to his papers GROWTH OF MALE WHITE-TAILED DEER: CONSEQUENCES OF MATERNAL EFFECTS in the Journal of Mammalogy and HORN SIZE AND NUTRITION IN MOUNTAIN SHEEP: CAN EWE HANDLE THE TRUTH in the Journal of Wildlife Management.

 

[wy-tex]

I do know studies have shown, in whitetail deer, nutrition does greatly affect antler growth.
I think somewhere in the middle gets you an answer, they need good nutrition to get to their full potential, genetics or not, imo.

Antelope are looking good for the OP question.

 

[Fish]

Thanks guys for all the info. I only have one point but may apply and hope to get REAL LUCKY in the draw.

 

[Bonecollector]

I do know studies have shown, in whitetail deer, nutrition does greatly affect antler growth.
I think somewhere in the middle gets you an answer, they need good nutrition to get to their full potential, genetics or not, imo.

Obviously, you need good nutrition/minerals to maximize potential. However, even with good nutrition, the bar can only be raised so high before maximizing possible potential. Perhaps a 60" antelope buck becomes a 70" antelope buck. But NO amount of nutrition is going to make him 80".
If it had nothing to do with genetics, every wanna-be gym junkie doing 5 set of 5 and drinking protein shakes would look like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Think about this; bucks can only breed so many does per year. Most does are breed by inferior bucks due to the greater ratio of sub-par bucks to B&C bucks. Hence only so many fawns with "great" genetics are dropped each year. If more dinks are not shot each year, that ratio of great vs fair genetics widens more than it already is.

I'm sure you've heard the term management buck. As much as I hate to hear that term, we all know what and why...

 

[BuzzH]

We're also talking about two different things. I'm talking about the number of trophy bucks in an area, what areas produce the most entries, as in my Carbon Co. example, you're talking more about individual animals.

I do agree with you that there is variation between animals. Not every animal in an area has the potential to be a monster buck, but talking about area to area, I don't think genetics of the population in a given area plays the giant role most hunters assign to it.

The biologists I talk to lately are much more talking about the factors I mentioned. Dr. Kevin Monteith at the U of Wyoming has written on the nutrition - horn size connection. See if you can find a link to his papers GROWTH OF MALE WHITE-TAILED DEER: CONSEQUENCES OF MATERNAL EFFECTS in the Journal of Mammalogy and HORN SIZE AND NUTRITION IN MOUNTAIN SHEEP: CAN EWE HANDLE THE TRUTH in the Journal of Wildlife Management.

I don't need to look up the work you suggested, I've listened to Kevin's presentation on that in person at a commission meeting. No question better nutrition, condition of the mother, etc. play a factor in producing better antlers/horns...but that's a long way from producing a B&C buck.

In the study referenced, IIRC, none of the bucks in that controlled study ever reached B&C size. Wonder why that would be?

If genetics play no role, then why do captive breeding facilities pay astronomical prices for deer that produce large B&C sized racks? If all it took were minerals, better foraged, etc. then any old deer would work and no need to pay out the nose for deer with better genetics.

Also, another example of genetics, rather than mineral and forage being the bigger factor is Montana bighorn sheep. Most all the transplanted bighorns are originally from the Rocky Mountain Front. That genetic strain has been transplanted to the Bitterroot, Blackfoot, Rock Creek, Anaconda, Missouri Breaks, etc. and even into Wyoming.

Funny thing...no matter the range changes, over vast amounts of country, a disproportionate number of the rams from that genetic strain of sheep are B&C sized rams. Including the rams transplanted from there to Wyoming.

Yet, the rams that came from native WY rams, in the same area, rarely reach B&C size...It sure isn't the mineral or range conditions causing that.

If its not genetics, then what explains it?

Another example is the whitetails I grew up hunting in Montana. The area I hunt, a vast majority of the whitetail bucks I kill have main beams that top out at 20-23 inches. My family and I have killed a boat load of bucks between 4.5-9.5 years old in there...and that genetic trait for modest main beam length is dominate. The country 15 or so miles to the north...bucks in that country have much longer main beams. Food quality, minerals, habitat type, forest type, all that stuff is identical.

Could it be genetics? I know it is.

If all it took were good minerals, forage, and a healthy mother...record book entries and B&C class animals would be much more common. Fact is, it takes great genetics for an animal to ever get there.

 

[Bonecollector]

Buzz, I thought I just explained this with my Arnold Schwarzenegger analogy...

 

[Bwht4x4]

From what I've seen its pretty good. There are lots of variables to consider if you are into exactly what affects horn growth in a given year. Not only is current year weather important, but how the weather was 3-5 years ago when bucks were born. Then there are local differences with weather and the area's history and likelihood of bigger horns. Overall though, as a general statement from what i have seen, horns are looking pretty good.

HiMtnHnter,

I've sent you a PM.

Thanks

 

[nunt'butmuleys]

From what ive been seeing horn growth should be good this year , now game and fish can give me a tag so I can experience it in person!! 2 wake ups and we should know. Good luck in the draws!!

 

[jimss]

I totally agree with Buzz's post above...especially this comment: No question better nutrition, condition of the mother, etc. play a factor in producing better antlers/horns...but that's a long way from producing a B&C buck." It's no wonder whitetail and elk high fenced game farms seek outstanding genetics for breeding stock. If you look at the B&C books there are certain counties in the US that produce B&C bucks, bulls, rams ,etc on a regular basis. Nontypical antlers are usually only found in concentrated areas...I wonder why? Buzz's post above also focus's on bighorn rams. Here in Colo certain areas produce tight curls while others produce low,sweaping horns....which all seem to be highly correlated to genetics.

If you've watched Sportsman's channel shows you've likely noticed the rave for bagged supplement buck feed and food plots that supposedly grow healthier and bigger racked bucks? I would expect critters taken from counties that produce B&C racks, given excellent supplements would likely grow higher scoring racks when raised side-by-side critters taken from counties that have never produced B&C racks. The body sizes of both animals would likely be significantly larger than grown without supplements but my guess is that non-B&C county critters won't reach near the rack size.

In reference to antelope. I've harvested 2 of my highest B&C scoring antelope bucks in years with historic drought. In fact, it was so dry one of the years that big sagebrush was actually dying from drought! This same year the local outfitter harvested more B&C antelope bucks than ever in his long history of hunting that area. Before that time I always considered super early spring moisture to be critical the year I drew tags. I couldn't make any sense of this until I realized something that made a lot of sense. Antelope bucks born in years of drought likely were born with smaller horn bases than bucks born in years with excellent moisture when does were in excellent shape.

Since realizing this, I have kept tight tabs on Wyo antelope bucks and horn growth fom one year to the next. Keeping tabs on winterkill, drought, moist years, etc. I've noticed that antelope bucks born in drought or tough years tend to have smaller horns for the remainder of their lives while antelope buck fawns born in excellent years have massive horns for their entire lives. I'm not sure if this holds true for muley bucks since their velvet starts from scratch every year and may be may not be influenced by year to year weather/forage conditions but it certainly has made sense with antelope.

Healthy habitat and healthy does definitely are important! I wouldn't get tied up with dry conditions the particular year you draw an antelope tag....I would be more concerned with weather conditions the past 4 to 5ish year prior to drawing the tag. Antelope can produce B&C horns in 3+ years which is another consideration where there has been winterkill, drought, etc.

Is B&C bucks a matter of genetics, nutrition, weather, or combination of a bunch of factors? My guess is that it's a combo of everything. As Buzz mentioned you better be prepared to cover gobs of country and look over gobs of bucks in search of maybe 1 or 2 B&C candidates....if you are lucky!