Sport Killing

[Horsenhike]

I'm just fine wiping them out outside of a very few areas. A few poking around a onemor two large Nat Parks and large wilderness area or two is OK by me. The species is not endangered at all. The ESA has been turned into a weapon, not a tool solely used to protect endangered species. We have a terrible problem with sea lions here and even fewer control options due to the Marine Mammal Protection Act.

Yup. It is a weapon. Here in South Dakota they have closed most of the islands on the lower Missouri River to people so that Piping Plover and Least Term can nest. Islands me and my family have spent time on for generations. Even after the mating season is over because, "There might be a renesting attempt." Stealing what is ours to supposedly protect a bird that will nest in a parking lot or gravel roof.

 

[Tim McCoy]

I 'd like to know where this FACT came from!

78% of statistics used as facts are made up...

 

[Brianh]

All I have to say is this is a good civilized discussion by lots of informed people. And if you take the time to read most of the posts, you will learn something. As I think we are finally learning in Wisconsin, the wolves are not the primary problem with the deer population as I suspect in other areas as well. Weather is huge, food or the growth of forests or lack of logging, public/private land and access, all predators including humans, affect the populations. Isn't just one thing, but when you stack things up, any given year one or the other can really affect the populations...up or down. Thanks again, I learned a lot reading this string.

 

[RICMIC]

Here's some stats for you, along with what I have personally seen. Minnesota has lots of deer, but the bulk of the population is in the southern 2/3rds of the state and in the expanding urban areas where there are few or zero wolves. In the big woods of NE MN, we have the poorest habitat and an estimate of 1.2 to 2.4 deer per square mile (MN DNR numbers). Two years ago, I saw two different wolves (one black, one white), and my partner saw a pack of 13 wolves. He actually had a wolf tag then, and watched the pack across a clear-cut for quite a while before taking his shot and missing. I have read some estimates that a wolf will take a deer a week, but the MN DNR claims an average of 15 deer a year per wolf is more accurate. So, my math is 15 wolves X 15 deer = 225 deer. Divide that by a high estimate of 2.4 deer per square mile = 93.75 square miles of zero deer. At a likely more accurate estimate of 1.2 deer per square mile ( after two killer winters; damn that global warming), and the numbers are 187.5 square miles of decimated deer. Now, I have accounted for 15 wolves, and the low estimates (by the USFS) are 2,400. I'll let you do the math. We do have a few remaining moose up here, and the wolves seem to have no trouble filling their larder with them. There have been extensive studies on our moose decline, and there is a perfect storm leading to their demise, but the number one mortality cause on collared adult moose is predators (not my opinion, but the MN DNRs study). We have scads of black bears too, so that is part of the predator equation.
I do like this statistic best of all; 90% of life is half mental. (Yogi Berra).

 

[Extractor]

Thanks RICMIC, same story here in northern WI, minus the moose. Between bears, coyotes, bobcats, wolves, hard winters, and the dnr, it's amazing we have any deer left. Ooh, wait a minute, we don't.

 

[mnhoundman]

Sad to say, but there going to have to cut deer tags! For us, not wolves!!

 

[Brianh]

What I see in Northern Wisconsin, is where there is good habitat, the deer do exist. And I say, good habitat. There are areas that couldn't support a rabbit let alone a deer in northern Wisconsin. And if you are that bad of a hunter to still hunt those areas, well, you get what you get. The amount of scouting I do each year, is 20X the amount of time I spend on a stand. And I have no trouble finding deer to hunt. Quality deer, now that is a problem as our age class has been destroyed by over harvest and bad winters. Yet again, I remember how many deer were in northern Wisconsin 30 years ago, and there are still more deer now than then...in some areas. And in some areas due to aging forests and no logging, many fewer. Again, all things said, lots of things happening in the woods and short term impacts such as a bad winter have some real long term impacts. I think...I saw 8 wolves last year near Rhinelander, and one Cougar near Solon Springs. Not where I hunt though. No deer there as they moved out when the pack moved in. Oh, and the 15 different bears I had on one bait station for my bear tag. No deer there either.

 

[RICMIC]

BrianH; When you have a family owned hunting shack with access to thousands of acres, you go for the commeradery as much as the hunting. We do that part of it, and in fact some of our group did hunt in southern MN last year. In the last two years, with 16 hunters in camp, hunting for 9 days, in all that time we saw ONE buck.....and that one was being hotly pursued by a big black wolf. I have filled my freezer with critters from CO and WY during the down time here, but the herd is not recovering like it has in the past. The start of this whole thread was the elk feed-ground killing by Bonderant, and unfortunately, that is where I have money down on a guided hunt booked.....hard to just walk away from that to look for somewhere else.

 

[Brianh]

BrianH; When you have a family owned hunting shack with access to thousands of acres, you go for the commeradery as much as the hunting. We do that part of it, and in fact some of our group did hunt in southern MN last year. In the last two years, with 16 hunters in camp, hunting for 9 days, in all that time we saw ONE buck.....and that one was being hotly pursued by a big black wolf. I have filled my freezer with critters from CO and WY during the down time here, but the herd is not recovering like it has in the past. The start of this whole thread was the elk feed-ground killing by Bonderant, and unfortunately, that is where I have money down on a guided hunt booked.....hard to just walk away from that to look for somewhere else.

Oh gosh...I understand. I've been gun hunting the same area for 35 years. Only reason, family and friends and camaraderie. Although we've gone from a 12-foot trailer with a gas heater, to a lake home. Last fall, I spent 3-days in a new stand location during our gun season just trying to evaluate different areas. Never saw a deer. That makes 2-years in a row. Not so funny thing though, there are no wolves in that area. That's why I say its not all about the wolves. I know its slim pickings in northern MN and NE Wisconsin. Guess that's why we go west. Can't wait to get back to Wyoming for my DIY archery elk hunt this fall.

 

[Brianh]

My apologies to everyone for changing the subject of the thread. Guess we all are pretty opinionated about our wolf issues.

 

[NVBen]

This is a bummer. That said, the 'thrill kill' is an often used excuse as to why we need to kill more predators. There are some papers that suggest wolves engage in surplus kills when densities of prey are opportunistically high. So they happen upon a bunch of calves and a few cows (at a feed station) and kill them all because the opportunity presented itself. The thought is then when food becomes limiting a week or several down the road they could come back to the surplus kill for a meal.

The thing is, the conditions are almost always artificial when this happens. It happens frequently with domestic sheep in huge herds. In this case the elk were drawn to a feed station. I really can't blame the wolves for an evolved behavior. We are essentially enabling them by attracting prey to an area with feed stations or grazing herds of livestock in their native habitat.

The whole situation is messed up, they are feeding the elk to keep them in the park so they don't get disease from nearby cattle operations then everyone cries foul when the wolves capitalize on a bunch of easy prey.

 

[480/277]

I think people cry foul because the perameters of wolf introduction have been allowed to be exceeded by the gvt .
I think people cry foul because sportsman built the game herds.
I think people cry foul because if surplus animals needed to be taken,
People should be allowed to use the resource.

I am not anti wolf. There is a place for them. The three most awesome
Sounds I have ever heard was an elk bugle, a wolf pack and loons on a lake.
But the wolf introduction should never had been allowed to decimate big game
And ranch animals outside the recovery area.

 

[ScottR]

This is a bummer. That said, the 'thrill kill' is an often used excuse as to why we need to kill more predators. There are some papers that suggest wolves engage in surplus kills when densities of prey are opportunistically high. So they happen upon a bunch of calves and a few cows (at a feed station) and kill them all because the opportunity presented itself. The thought is then when food becomes limiting a week or several down the road they could come back to the surplus kill for a meal.

The thing is, the conditions are almost always artificial when this happens. It happens frequently with domestic sheep in huge herds. In this case the elk were drawn to a feed station. I really can't blame the wolves for an evolved behavior. We are essentially enabling them by attracting prey to an area with feed stations or grazing herds of livestock in their native habitat.

The whole situation is messed up, they are feeding the elk to keep them in the park so they don't get disease from nearby cattle operations then everyone cries foul when the wolves capitalize on a bunch of easy prey.

Hey Ben, thanks for joining the forum. Want to go over to the introductions sections and introduce yourself?

 

[Slugz]

I think people cry foul because the perameters of wolf introduction have been allowed to be exceeded by the gvt .
I think people cry foul because sportsman built the game herds.
I think people cry foul because if surplus animals needed to be taken,
People should be allowed to use the resource.

I am not anti wolf. There is a place for them. The three most awesome
Sounds I have ever heard was an elk bugle, a wolf pack and loons on a lake.
But the wolf introduction should never had been allowed to decimate big game
And ranch animals outside the recovery area.

Well put sir.

 

[mallardsx2]

That has got to be one of the silliest comparisons I have ever read on this site....

 

[480/277]

That has got to be one of the silliest comparisons I have ever read on this site....

I may incorrectly be reading that comment at me. But if not, because this is the internet and communication is not as clear as two guys talking over a scotch ,or a daiquiri in your case, let me try to make my point clearer.

NVBEN posted"the 'thrill kill' is an often used excuse as to why we need to kill more predators."

My point is the "thrill kill" is not the metric in sportsman's eyes as to wether or not wolves (in this case and I believe grizzlies also "bear" (pun intended )some burden)need to be managed outside the recovery zone. Anyone who had enjoyed the wildlife herds in and around Jackson hole pre wolves and grizzlies vs now I would venture to say most would support predator control.

Sportsman built those herds. And I stand by my opinion, I would rather see the Eastmans, Hilltop, CC and all the other sportsman on here eating those surplus animals.

As well as the Feds being held to thier word on the original recovery plan.

YMMV

 

[shootbrownelk]

Those were meat hunters not homesteaders.

They were Market hunters. They killed to sell meat & hides for money.

 

[shootbrownelk]

I think people cry foul because the perameters of wolf introduction have been allowed to be exceeded by the gvt .
I think people cry foul because sportsman built the game herds.
I think people cry foul because if surplus animals needed to be taken,
People should be allowed to use the resource.

I am not anti wolf. There is a place for them. The three most awesome
Sounds I have ever heard was an elk bugle, a wolf pack and loons on a lake.
But the wolf introduction should never had been allowed to decimate big game
And ranch animals outside the recovery area.

I am anti-wolf, and yes, there is a place for them....back in Canada or under a pile of dirt. Grey wolves are an invasive species that does not belong. Hunters have taken over their role as top predator long ago.

 

[mallardsx2]

480

All I am saying is that there are humans who like to kill. that is it. nothing more. Animals like to kill and have for eons. You can go with the poacher who just drops animals and leaves them, I found 2 dead moose feet apart a couple of years ago. just dropped and left. or you can go with the extremes of Charles manson. All I am saying is it is ironic, that one species that kills a lot(humans) is upset because another animal is killing also.

Now for fun, I am a small business owner who is used to competition. In the business world, competition makes you a better player in the game. Now are hunters upset because we have competition(predators). Albeit not a level playing field, but competition non the less.

Take a sip of your Scotch and untwist your panties...I share similar viewpoints to you.

Also, I thought I hit the reply with quote and I didn't. My apologies.

I was actually referring to this post above about comparing a small business competition model to our wild game policies.

Now, to be perfectly clear where I stand: I would kill every wolf in the lower 48 if they allowed me.

But that's just my .02 sitting back drinking my pansy daiquiri...

 

[480/277]

I'll have you know I go commando....