Reintroducing Wolves to Colorado

shootbrownelk

Veteran member
Apr 11, 2011
1,535
196
Wyoming
Wasn't this brought up a year ago and voted down?
If this is a plan hatched by bunny huggers & the Federal Government, there won't be any voting done on the issue. The Feds always get their way. If the Agricultural/Ranching lobby in Wyoming couldn't get re-introduction stopped do you think Colorado has a chance?
Who's behind this "Reintroduction"?
 

dan maule

Veteran member
Jan 3, 2015
1,027
1,282
Upper Michigan
Am I the only one that is sick and tired of all the wolf reintroduction talk. There are plenty of the stupid things in the areas they already exist. Upper Michigan and Northern Wisconsin are thick with them now. Every time they are reintroduced into an area they immediately start looking for the next area. You can't help but be frightened about what the real intentions are of the people behind these reintroduction movements.
 

Wyoming Hart

Very Active Member
Oct 10, 2014
858
165
Spring Run, PA
My opinion has always been, if you want to see them or "live" with them, go to where they are. I agree that it is all just a plot to get rid of hunting little by little. Why is it in this country that because a select few want to change things, we allow that to happen. I see it all the time in all aspects of life. It isn't just by those with money or power either.
 

gypsumreaper

Active Member
Mar 13, 2014
308
0
The thing is the environmentalists know where to go to get what they want. Go to aspen where the people hug trees for their morning routine, plus they have money so they will throw money at us like it's nothing. With a huge budget backing and support of several wolf conservation groups this will end up on the fast track.
I'm totally against it I have not seen or heard of anywhere with a reintroduction where it is benefited besides wolf pops growing and elk and deer numbers falling.
I outfit just on the other side of aspen, so this is in my back yard and I don't stand for it one bit, I'm hoping the wildlife officers in our area take a stand cause I know all the ones I deal with are on our side.


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kstitz

Member
Jan 24, 2012
51
0
Colorado
They are already here. In 2013 we saw tracks from a small pack in fresh snow in the flat tops. The problem is not the wolves but the proper management of them. Once they are introduced the tree huggers, who never spend any time in the wilderness, will tie up the hunting of them in the courts until they are out of control.
 

Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
8,348
4,741
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Dolores, Colorado
Like I said in my earlier post, if the feds do like they did in Yellowstone and target RMNP for wolf intro, the state likely will not have a lot of influence in the decision. Sure the feds will hold hearings and other publicity crap, but their mind will be made up and they will do what they (and the tree huggers) want.

We need to get involved, donate $$$ to RMEF & Boone & Crockett and be vigilant....call your US Senator & Representative.
 

gypsumreaper

Active Member
Mar 13, 2014
308
0
Yes kstitz
They are already in Colorado I agree, have seen them in person myself. But many times they are moving through and not establishing themselves in the area.
The only reason they hold hearings is to keep people like us thinking they are listening when they really aren't. They do have their minds made up beforehand. Although donating to the RMEF does help, it won't stop what is going on it will only help keep the herds going for as long as possible.
If they decide to have public meetings it will be impossible for us to stand up and get our word in as there is no arguing with the ignorance of the tree huggers. I was in a meeting the other night over a bicycle trail in my area, they want this trail to go over the river and through the woods, instead of just a simple bike trail along the highway. It was impossible for anyone opposing the trail to talk. I feel this will be the same exact way but I will still be there if they hold meetings in my area


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kidoggy

Veteran member
Apr 23, 2016
9,847
10,860
58
idaho
My opinion has always been, if you want to see them or "live" with them, go to where they are. I agree that it is all just a plot to get rid of hunting little by little. Why is it in this country that because a select few want to change things, we allow that to happen. I see it all the time in all aspects of life. It isn't just by those with money or power either.
I believe they should be introduced in california ,new york. let the freaks that love em ,live with em.
 

kidoggy

Veteran member
Apr 23, 2016
9,847
10,860
58
idaho
Like I said in my earlier post, if the feds do like they did in Yellowstone and target RMNP for wolf intro, the state likely will not have a lot of influence in the decision. Sure the feds will hold hearings and other publicity crap, but their mind will be made up and they will do what they (and the tree huggers) want.

We need to get involved, donate $$$ to RMEF & Boone & Crockett and be vigilant....call your US Senator & Representative.

don't forget NRA. the wolf is the anti gun right crowds, money raising baby.reintroduction of the wolf is a direct assault on your right to bear arms.
that is the agenda behind the wolf movement
do not for a second believe the huggers actually care about the wolves, they are merely a means to an end.
 
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Mule3006Elk

Active Member
Jul 3, 2013
264
82
We the purchasing hunting public have the power. If we stop buying they will listen. However, trying to get the entire hunting community to stop purchasing gear and tags isn't going to happen. If WE did the feds would have to listen to the states, business (large and small), conservation groups (RMEF, MDF, etc.) that are financially suffering as they would have to step-up and put their foot down. They depend upon us the purchasing public to survive. We put some 38 billion into the retail economy (per RMEF). 8 million into conservation efforts (per RMEF). If the buck stops because WE decide to make a stand you can't tell me that won't get some attention real fast.

Example: In NV malpractice for doctors was going through the roof. The insurances companies didn't care about the doctors that were complaining. In medicine physicians have a ton of power when they band together and stand up for themselves (doesn't happen enough). Finally, the doctors starting leaving the state in large numbers (OB/GYN in particular) which caught the states attention real fast. The insurance companies still didn't care until the state stepped in and mandated reform thus preventing further loss of physicians. Who had the power? The doctors.

In our case we the purchasing public clearly have the power. Who's going to listen to complaining hunters if we continue to dump 38 billion into the economy and 8 million into conservation. IMO no one will listen.
 
Jul 13, 2016
54
0
Not my circus, not my monkeys.

I was deeply involved in the WY/ID/MT wolf issue...time for someone else to step up. I can offer advice, but I'm not going to war again.

Simply not worth it...too much emotion, too little facts and reality.
I'm interested in your opinion.

I did my bachelor of Science in biodiversity and conservation and have worked in the conservation industry since.

I see both sides.

My issue with reintroducing large carnivores is that not enough people stop to think about the current state of things.

We live in a vastly different world now than even 50 years ago. An ecosystem that once supported wolves won't necessarily be able to now.

I had an interesting conversation at an ecosystem rehabilitation conference last year with an American academic that was visiting the country. We as a society consider everything we do as an inherently unnatural act, which when you take into account that we ourselves are just another species of animal is absurd.

We wiped out the wolves and changed the ecosystem, but is that in itself really an issue? The environment is constantly changing and evolving so is it not ignorance to try and reverse a natural process?

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BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
Aussie_hunter_jd,

I'm reluctant to say much of anything, because, just like I stated, there is too much emotion and too little facts brought to the table. If you're not a kill every wolf on sight, SSS, then you're a "Lib". If you understand the reality of what happened in MT/ID/WY and the entire process, you're also a "Lib".

I will say, that to understand the issue, it takes a good understanding of the policy, science, politics, agreements made, agreements broken, etc. etc. behind the reintroduction.

Before I dive into this chit storm, what specifically do want to know about what happened in MT/ID/WY? Because frankly, there's already been some pretty serious lies presented here as fact.

If you're really interested I'll start at the start, but I can tell you its going to be messy as there's emotional "wolf experts" that don't deal well with the reality of what happened and why.
 
Jul 13, 2016
54
0
Aussie_hunter_jd,

I'm reluctant to say much of anything, because, just like I stated, there is too much emotion and too little facts brought to the table. If you're not a kill every wolf on sight, SSS, then you're a "Lib". If you understand the reality of what happened in MT/ID/WY and the entire process, you're also a "Lib".

I will say, that to understand the issue, it takes a good understanding of the policy, science, politics, agreements made, agreements broken, etc. etc. behind the reintroduction.

Before I dive into this chit storm, what specifically do want to know about what happened in MT/ID/WY? Because frankly, there's already been some pretty serious lies presented here as fact.

If you're really interested I'll start at the start, but I can tell you its going to be messy as there's emotional "wolf experts" that don't deal well with the reality of what happened and why.
I'm just interested in the topic as a whole. It's a very delicate topic and decision, you can send me a dm I'd you don't want to start a poo fight.

I'd like to think I'm a man of logic and though I stand by my views I'm always open to new information that is contrary to my beliefs if it's sound. Only a fool wouldn't be.

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hoshour

Veteran member
I don't believe we're just another species of animal, but I do think there is a large segment of the anti-hunting crowd that thinks that man is just a plague on the planet and should be treated as an undesirable. Natural to them means no people.

I'll admit that men improperly regulated have done damage, but as I wrote in the Defense of Hunting series, it was man that brought the animals we hunt back from the brink and as a result of pretty good game management, game populations are much higher and bring enjoyment to a large number of people. We fund a lot of conservation work.

One problem with wolves, black bears, coyotes and grizzlies is that as replacements for regulated hunters, there is no natural limiting factor on how much they multiply and kill until they start to run out of things to eat. See MN for example of what that looks like.

That was one of the points made in Aspen - that we would be better off with fewer elk and deer, with the bizarre tradeoff that there would be more willows and aspens. Don't care for that trade.
 

Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
8,348
4,741
83
Dolores, Colorado
I'm interested in your opinion.

I did my bachelor of Science in biodiversity and conservation and have worked in the conservation industry since.

I see both sides.

My issue with reintroducing large carnivores is that not enough people stop to think about the current state of things.

We live in a vastly different world now than even 50 years ago. An ecosystem that once supported wolves won't necessarily be able to now.

I had an interesting conversation at an ecosystem rehabilitation conference last year with an American academic that was visiting the country. We as a society consider everything we do as an inherently unnatural act, which when you take into account that we ourselves are just another species of animal is absurd.

We wiped out the wolves and changed the ecosystem, but is that in itself really an issue? The environment is constantly changing and evolving so is it not ignorance to try and reverse a natural process?

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One point that you & BuzzH have missed is that the problem of wolves being introduced into the Yellowstone ecosystem is that there is no hunting allowed. Yes there were very few predators and the ungulates overpopulated and did damage to their habitat. Everything would have been fine if the wolves could have been confined to the Park. Outside YNP the conditions are totally different. the ungulates are managed, population is controlled and then extra animals are harvested by hunters. There is no need for wolves to do this.

Another approach would have been to allow limited hunting in NPs. Keeps the ungulate numbers under control, extral $$$ for hunting permits helps the NP budget and hunters get full freezers.

We didn't change the ecosystem by wiping out the wolves, the NP system of no hunting changed the ecosystem.
 

BuzzH

Very Active Member
Apr 15, 2015
909
952
I'm just interested in the topic as a whole. It's a very delicate topic and decision, you can send me a dm I'd you don't want to start a poo fight.

I'd like to think I'm a man of logic and though I stand by my views I'm always open to new information that is contrary to my beliefs if it's sound. Only a fool wouldn't be.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
I'll try to keep this as short as possible. The first meeting I ever attended on wolves was in the late 80's. There were wolves found in NW Montana, specifically the Glacier Park/Ninemile/Flathead areas. By the late 80's there were established packs in all of those areas. At the same time, wolf recovery was started, via scoping meetings. The established packs of wolves in NW Montana were protected via full protection under the ESA (Endangered Species Act). After the scoping period, the USFWS came up with a list of alternatives to help recover wolves in the core recovery area of ID/WY/MT.

The alternatives ranged from nothing, to full reintroduction with full protection under the ESA. During the entire process, the public absolutely was involved. At the time, there had never been more public comments received for a EIS. There were several open comment periods with dozens of public meetings. In all, there were over 160,000 public comments received, a vast majority of them in favor of reintroduction. The EIS was finalized in May of 1994, and the preferred alternative was to reintroduce, applying the 10(j) rule outlined in the ESA. That meant that the reintroduced population would be classified as "non-essential". What that did, was gave the States of ID, MT, and WY a lot more management authority.

Under 10(j), wolves were managed almost immediately, as in, wolves preying on livestock, etc. were shot. Kill permits were issued within a year or two of reintroduction to ranchers that were having trouble.

While all this was going on, the States were required to draft State management plans that were to be approved by the USFWS. The one thing, that would eventually bite the States in the ass, was that all three states had to approved plans for state management to happen. In hindsight, that was a huge problem, that I would caution any State to consider prior to ever agreeing to reintroduce any species. The States should be independent of one another, and not hitched to any other State.

Almost immediately, Montana and Idaho had plans in place that were approved by the USFWS. Wyoming had problems from the start, the biggest issue being the dual classification of wolves. They were considered trophy game in the recovery area, predator in the remainder of the State.

Also, under the EIS, minimum pack numbers were to be maintained as well as a minimum population in each State. Very quickly, the USFWS actually reduced the number of packs required for delisting, because the average pack size was much larger than anyone had anticipated.

The thing to keep in mind, is that wolves were already going to be recovered as they had naturally moved into Montana at least a decade prior to reintroduction. The reintroduction simply accelerated what was going to happen anyway, and also gave the States more management control under 10(j).

Once the pack numbers and population was met, delisting was started. The problem was Wyoming's plan was NOT an accepted plan and tied up delisting. Montana and Idaho suffered because of Wyoming's lack of an accepted plan. Finally, MT and ID had enough and asked Senators Jon Tester (MT) and Mike Simpson (ID) to introduce legislation that would remove wolves from the ESL and give control to the their States. They were successful, and the other part of the Simpson/Tester language that was important, is that there could be no lawsuits filed in response to the delisting.

Wyoming was left on its own, and rightfully so. The bull-headedness of the Wyoming Farm Bureau (who by the way filed the FIRST lawsuit in regard to reintroduction), and their lack of compromise on an acceptable plan is why the wolves are still listed here. The State agreed to certain conditions, and they simply can not ignore binding agreements with the Federal Government.

Since the Simpson/Tester rider, the States of Montana and Idaho have been successfully managing wolves, including hunting and trapping seasons.

Those are the facts of what happened. There are plenty of people that say, "the wolves were shoved down our throats by the Feds"...that is simply untrue. The Feds did exactly what they were required to do, and don't forget that a vast majority of public comments favored reintroduction. What did everyone expect to happen with that being the case? The only people to blame for the reintroduction moving forward, are those that didn't take the time to comment on the several open comment periods.

I also cant believe that anyone would make the claim that the Federal Government used the ESA illegally to reintroduce wolves. That's pure B.S., they followed the letter of the law during the entire process. Just because you don't agree with reintroduction and wolves, doesn't mean that the Feds didn't follow the law. If they had failed to follow the law, I can assure you that with the amount of scrutiny that the recovery has received, there would have been a legal consequences...there hasn't been any.

There is no doubt that the recovery was legal. There was no doubt that wolves were going to inhabit the West again, they had already established packs in Montana. All the recovery did was speed up the inevitable, and also give more management options along the way.

I view wolves the same as any other animal. I agree with State's having management control. I'm in favor of hunting and trapping them.

What I find tiresome is the sky is falling and they killed all the elk and moose. That's pure chit too. Every single State that has wolves right now, I can kill more in every one of those States NOW than I could prior to reintroduction. How anyone can make the claim that wolves have wiped out elk, when they can legally kill 2 elk a year in Montana and Idaho, and 3 elk a year in Wyoming...is a complete mystery.

Wolves have their place on the landscape as long as they're managed...and they are.

I'm also not denying that there were a lot of bumps along the way in the recovery process, but that's life. Something as complex as this was bound to have some problems, nobody with a firing brain cell thought any differently. I knew from the get-go there would be problems, but frankly, the biggest problem (Wyoming playing Marlboro man), was not what I anticipated would be the biggest problem for delisting.
 
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Jul 13, 2016
54
0
I'll try to keep this as short as possible. The first meeting I ever attended on wolves was in the late 80's. There were wolves found in NW Montana, specifically the Glacier Park/Ninemile/Flathead areas. By the late 80's there were established packs in all of those areas. At the same time, wolf recovery was started, via scoping meetings. The established packs of wolves in NW Montana were protected via full protection under the ESA (Endangered Species Act). After the scoping period, the USFWS came up with a list of alternatives to help recover wolves in the core recovery area of ID/WY/MT.

The alternatives ranged from nothing, to full reintroduction with full protection under the ESA. During the entire process, the public absolutely was involved. At the time, there had never been more public comments received for a EIS. There were several open comment periods with dozens of public meetings. In all, there were over 160,000 public comments received, a vast majority of them in favor of reintroduction. The EIS was finalized in May of 1994, and the preferred alternative was to reintroduce, applying the 10(j) rule outlined in the ESA. That meant that the reintroduced population would be classified as "non-essential". What that did, was gave the States of ID, MT, and WY a lot more management authority.

Under 10(j), wolves were managed almost immediately, as in, wolves preying on livestock, etc. were shot. Kill permits were issued within a year or two of reintroduction to ranchers that were having trouble.

While all this was going on, the States were required to draft State management plans that were to be approved by the USFWS. The one thing, that would eventually bite the States in the ass, was that all three states had to approved plans for state management to happen. In hindsight, that was a huge problem, that I would caution any State to consider prior to ever agreeing to reintroduce any species. The States should be independent of one another, and not hitched to any other State.

Almost immediately, Montana and Idaho had plans in place that were approved by the USFWS. Wyoming had problems from the start, the biggest issue being the dual classification of wolves. They were considered trophy game in the recovery area, predator in the remainder of the State.

Also, under the EIS, minimum pack numbers were to be maintained as well as a minimum population in each State. Very quickly, the USFWS actually reduced the number of packs required for delisting, because the average pack size was much larger than anyone had anticipated.

The thing to keep in mind, is that wolves were already going to be recovered as they had naturally moved into Montana at least a decade prior to reintroduction. The reintroduction simply accelerated what was going to happen anyway, and also gave the States more management control under 10(j).

Once the pack numbers and population was met, delisting was started. The problem was Wyoming's plan was NOT an accepted plan and tied up delisting. Montana and Idaho suffered because of Wyoming's lack of an accepted plan. Finally, MT and ID had enough and asked Senators Jon Tester (MT) and Mike Simpson (ID) to introduce legislation that would remove wolves from the ESL and give control to the their States. They were successful, and the other part of the Simpson/Tester language that was important, is that there could be no lawsuits filed in response to the delisting.

Wyoming was left on its own, and rightfully so. The bull-headedness of the Wyoming Farm Bureau (who by the way filed the FIRST lawsuit in regard to reintroduction), and their lack of compromise on an acceptable plan is why the wolves are still listed here. The State agreed to certain conditions, and they simply can not ignore binding agreements with the Federal Government.

Since the Simpson/Tester rider, the States of Montana and Idaho have been successfully managing wolves, including hunting and trapping seasons.

Those are the facts of what happened. There are plenty of people that say, "the wolves were shoved down our throats by the Feds"...that is simply untrue. The Feds did exactly what they were required to do, and don't forget that a vast majority of public comments favored reintroduction. What did everyone expect to happen with that being the case? The only people to blame for the reintroduction moving forward, are those that didn't take the time to comment on the several open comment periods.

I also cant believe that anyone would make the claim that the Federal Government used the ESA illegally to reintroduce wolves. That's pure B.S., they followed the letter of the law during the entire process. Just because you don't agree with reintroduction and wolves, doesn't mean that the Feds didn't follow the law. If they had failed to follow the law, I can assure you that with the amount of scrutiny that the recovery has received, there would have been a legal consequences...there hasn't been any.

There is no doubt that the recovery was legal. There was no doubt that wolves were going to inhabit the West again, they had already established packs in Montana. All the recovery did was speed up the inevitable, and also give more management options along the way.

I view wolves the same as any other animal. I agree with State's having management control. I'm in favor of hunting and trapping them.

What I find tiresome is the sky is falling and they killed all the elk and moose. That's pure chit too. Every single State that has wolves right now, I can kill more in every one of those States NOW than I could prior to reintroduction. How anyone can make the claim that wolves have wiped out elk, when they can legally kill 2 elk a year in Montana and Idaho, and 3 elk a year in Wyoming...is a complete mystery.

Wolves have their place on the landscape as long as they're managed...and they are.

I'm also not denying that there were a lot of bumps along the way in the recovery process, but that's life. Something as complex as this was bound to have some problems, nobody with a firing brain cell thought any differently. I knew from the get-go there would be problems, but frankly, the biggest problem (Wyoming playing Marlboro man), was not what I anticipated would be the biggest problem for delisting.
That makes perfect sense to me, seems like a well balanced approach to it all.

Myself I'd love the opportunity to hunt a wolf and having them there certainly gives me that option one day (though we nice Muley buck is on top if the list).

Compare that to the management of crocs in australia. Here they were near on wiped out so a ban was put in place. Today their numbers are higher than they've ever been yet they still won't allow hunting again. I believe the last attempt was November or December just been that it was knock back. Mind you they kill people every year too. And to boot they taste great, so they're farmed which is in my view much more unethical than simply allowing hunting free range animals.

That is what I call poor management.

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RICMIC

Veteran member
Feb 21, 2012
2,016
1,796
Two Harbors, Minnesota
Buzz; Clearly, you are knowlegable on this subject, but I do have a disagreement on a couple of your statements. I live in NE MN., in a log home that I built myself, 22 miles from the nearest small town, and right smack in the middle of the big woods wolf area. MN also had a remnant population that didn't require re-introduction, but was eventually protected by the ESA. The numbers goal was met years ago, and after a struggle, management was back in state hands. Unfortunately, lawsuits put it back into federal management. I spoke to a fed wolf researcher while he was in the field, and he told me that the true estimate of wolf #'s in MN is 3,500 to 5,000, but that "politics" have prevented any true management. Weather will always be the prime determining factor of deer numbers up here, but even after a couple of easy winters we are virtually devoid of deer. The wolves have saturated the "suitable" habitat, and run into too many conflicts when they expand into their "former range" that is now heavily populated.
It is true that the majority of comments were in favor of the wolf reintroduction, but for what its worth, I can assure you that much of that is like what happened in the recent election; urban VS rural. The people who live here, work here, raise their family's here, have a far different opinion than that held by the folks who only play here.