Poaching, why is it acceptable on predators, but not on ungulates?

tim

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Just like the title says, curious as to why poaching is bad on some animals, but not on others?

Are ungulates put on a higher level because we eat them, and predators on a lower level, because they eat "our" ungulates?
 

JimP

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Are there seasons and tags required for the predators? There are set season and tags that need to be purchased for the ungulates. Anything outside of those seasons and if you don't have a tag for that season and ungulate then it is considered poaching.

In most areas all you need for a predator is a small game license and the season is year long, no tags needed or any set limits.
 

mallardsx2

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You dont eat coyotes? You should try them.

Don't be worried about it until you start barking randomly.
 
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mallardsx2

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If there are rules pertaining to a particular predator, follow them. It's that simple for me. Nothing is gained by disregarding laws that I don't like.
So your cool with forced wolf re-introduction and liberal activists lobbying to close predator hunting seasons down and reducing ungulate tags so the wolves and other predators can prosper and flourish be damned what the wildlife agencies recommend?? Not trying to put words in your mouth here. Just giving an example of what we are facing in the future...Because you'll be pushed into that corner in your lifetime and I hope you decide to take a different stance than what you have said above or you better dust off your golf clubs. You may not gain anything but you will loose everything....and some people are ok with that.

I'm not advocating for poaching here. I am just saying that if predators to go un-checked we are all going to be out of deer/elk meat.....
How will we maintain the balance if our hands are tied by ridiculous laws? That is not for me to say I guess. I dont live in the west.
 
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ScottR

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I am saying we live with the laws until we force the change needed through legal means. We have to be as smart as they are using the legal system in our favor the way that they have to get the desired results and outcomes. Poaching wolves along the way only gives them cannon fodder along the way to beat us in the courts.
 

buckbull

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Jun 20, 2011
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Depends on what and how it was poached. Its not a black or white issue. Its illegal to kill a coyote in Illinois during our shotgun only 7 day deer season with a rifle. I couldn't give a crap if someone popped one with a .243. Had some guys back in high school that would run them down with their snow mobiles; i found it disgusting and if I saw it would turn them in. Would I turn someone in for shooting a deer 2 minutes after legal light - no. Would I turn someone in for shining and shooting deer - yes.
 

tim

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Basically what i am asking is, why is shoot, shovel, shut up acceptable, but shooting a buck out of season is hang them high.
 

mallardsx2

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When you dont have any animals to hunt because the predators killed them all and the rest of the remaining animals gain protections from hunting I think you will be able to answer your own question.
 
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tim

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When you dont have any animals to hunt because the predators killed them all and the rest of the remaining animals gain protections from hunting I think you will be able to answer your own question.
just having some fun, but based on your reply it is ok to poach the animals you don't want, but not ok to poach the animals you do want?

predators do make hunting harder, but they don't make if impossible.
 

BuzzH

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Apr 15, 2015
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Its not right to poach anything and anyone that disagrees is looking for confirmation for breaking the law.

What I've found odd is that most of the SSS predator crowd, can't even find an elk or deer to shoot, they haven't a prayer on lions, bears, or wolves. Its also interesting most of the SSS crowd don't even live in a state with wolves.

Its mostly all tough-guy bar stool gibberish.

Not to mention in ID, MT, and WY the tags are cheap, season's long...no reason to poach a wolf.
 

mallardsx2

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To answer your question poaching is poaching by the letter of the law as I interpret it. People who choose to break that law must live with the consequences and they should be stiff. And to be clear I'm not a poacher.

Furthermore, if it was up to me there would be a law making it perfectly legal to hunt apex predators across the west with poison, bazookas, helicopters, airplanes, blimps and laser beams. But its not up to me and to the best of my knowledge it is illegal to use those tactics at this current time...

As stated, I'm not advocating for poaching here. I'm talking hypothetically and I am just saying that if predators to go un-checked we are all going to be out of deer/elk to hunt....How will we maintain a herd of animals to hunt for food if our hands are tied by ridiculous laws protecting predators that are drummed up by some liberal judge who has never even seen a wolf, lion, or bear and what they are capable of doing? That is not for me to say or decide I guess as I dont live in the west.

You residents are the ones that can make a difference "through using the legal system in your favor the way that they have to get the desired results and outcomes". You live there. Funny thing is a bunch of people and sportsmen think its cool to have those apex predators make a comeback. Personally, I see nothing cool about it and neither did our government until "recently". Remember, not too long ago the government used some of the very tactics that I listed above to reduce predator numbers all across the west. Oh how the times have changed. Now ungulate numbers are dropping across the west and people go on "Wolf howl tours". lol

Just having some fun, do you feel poaching is bad on some animals, but not on others?
 
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kidoggy

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Basically what i am asking is, why is shoot, shovel, shut up acceptable, but shooting a buck out of season is hang them high.
your first post shows you already know the answer. of course, that is the reason.
most people find it perfectly acceptable to break ANY law they disagree with. whether it be speeding, vandalism, theft, murder or SSS. folks will find some way to justify it.

very few will admit the poor law exists because they were too lazy to try and get it changed.

Scott is spot on. we have a system in place to change silly laws. breaking those laws will only hinder not help the cause.

either one believes in the rule of law, or they do not!
 
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BuzzH

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I'm not insecure enough as a hunter, or a person, to believe that apex predators don't have a rightful place on the landscape.

Apex predators are THE litmus test for how we're doing securing habitat, practicing conservation, and keeping large ecosystems intact. Those animals simply would not exist otherwise.

I don't want to hunt in place where wolves, grizzlies, lions, black bears, lynx, bobcats, fisher, wolverine, marten, otters, etc. don't exist...I'll go a step further and say I wouldn't even care to live in such a place either. If we get the point where those animals fail to exist, we've failed and we've failed big.

I don't want to hunt in a place where ungulate populations are essentially game farmed via wiping out apex predators, simply to make it easier for human hunting. Hunting should be hard, if you want it easy, I suggest Texas.

I also don't understand the mentality that every ungulate on planet earth needs to either be on a humans wall or eventually be turned into a human turd. I have no problem with lions, wolves, bears, etc. killing prey species like elk, deer, pronghorn, etc. I also have no problem with ungulates dying of old age either, its not a "waste", its another indication that we're providing everything that animal needs to survive from cradle to grave. THAT is what I want, intact ecosystems large enough to be self sustaining with apex predators, ungulates, and also be healthy enough to afford some level of human hunting as well.

Also, the lack of knowledge about predator/prey relationships is severely lacking by those screaming the loudest about "the wolves ate all the elk". They aren't even the leading predator on elk, deer, or anything else (see Bitterroot study, ID statewide study), etc. I doubt most people realize that on average, wolves rarely live much beyond 3 years in the Rockies, its a tough life out here.

I'm also not in any way opposed to trapping and hunting all the apex predators, no differently than I'm not opposed to hunting sheep, moose, goats, bighorns, elk, deer, etc. I'm also fully supportive of trapping, and I've done a lot of it, trapping every fur bearer in the State of Montana (including lynx) that I was allowed to at the time, with the exception of wolverine.

What I have no use for is people unwilling to even hunt wolves legally and do their part...there are 10 tags allowed in MT, I don't know how many in ID, and 2/3 of Wyoming is open year round with no required permit. Black bear and lion tags are OTC in those States as well.

This talk of poaching anything, is ridiculous, hunt them legally or take up golfing, needle-point, bowling, etc. there is no room for you in hunting.
 

kidoggy

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whether there are predators or not it is generally the same 10% that kill year after year after year.

winners adapt, losers do not.
 
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CrimsonArrow

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Feb 21, 2011
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Here’s a shocker for some of you, wolves do exist in states outside the Yellowstone ecosystem. In recent years, the northern half of Minnesota has had a wolf population of approximately 3000 animals. Since some federal judge in another state decided to place a moratorium on wolf hunting here, that number has grown. In the arrowhead, We lost our moose season about 10 years ago, and multi-generational deer camps have all but disappeared because of the utter lack of deer to hunt. Something needs to be done about the wolves, and I wouldn’t hold it against anyone who uses whatever means to protect their way of life. I live on the fringe of the wolves range, and have seen many while out in the woods. I believe we’re better off having wolves on the landscape, but the numbers need to be managed.
 

Ikeepitcold

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Basically what i am asking is, why is shoot, shovel, shut up acceptable, but shooting a buck out of season is hang them high.
I don’t think that it is acceptable but it’s done. If the person that does SSS they will be prosecuted If caught just like if a person killed a elk out of season.
 
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