MER and Changing the long range game

406precision

New Member
Oct 30, 2014
13
0
South West Montana
If you visit your local gun range or sporting goods store, or pick up a current hunting publication chances are you’re going to hear or read an article where someone brings up the topic of long range shooting and hunting…and almost as soon as the topic is brought up a passionate yet often misguided and uninformed debate begins.
Questions like …What caliber do I need to shoot an elk at 1000 yards? What scope can I buy that will allow me to just range and shoot? Are often followed by …Is long range shooting really hunting?? Is it ethical to take animals at extended range? What ever happened to fair chase? Etc..
So the question then comes down to…What is it about long range hunting that fuels such debate?
I think a lot of the debate comes from the way that long range hunting has been portrayed on television and in turn capitalized on by manufactures hoping to ride the next hot trend into the sunset sitting atop a wheel barrel of cash. Now I don’t hold it against anyone for making money…and I dang sure don’t hold it against anyone who is lucky enough to make a living in the sporting industry…but I do have a problem with the lack of education that has been provided along the way.
This is where I think that we ought to throw away the term long range hunting and replace it with something called maximum effective range. What the heck is maximum effective range???
Maximum effective range is a simple yet vital term that describes your maximum effective range with your chosen weapon. It isn’t relegated just to rifles as it is essential to know your MER regardless of your choice of weapon be it a longbow , 338 Lapua or a muzzle loader. MER doesn’t come with a preset yardage it functions on a very tried and true method that you get out of it what you put in.
Each and every sportsman or women needs to know and understand their MER in order to make rational and measured choices in the field. MER is as individual as the hunters themselves and can’t be a blanket statement or fact that can be passed on from one person to the next. It is a learned and established distance that ought to be in the back of every hunters mind when they steady to take a shot.
The more you choose to practice and develop your skills and the better you learn to take advantage of the new technology and equipment available the further you can develop your MER.
Two essential steps in developing your MER include knowing your equipment and understanding your skills with the given weapon. This is where it starts to get tricky..in today’s world the sportsman has so much technology at their disposal that it becomes easy for them to take for granted that just because you can afford it …doesn’t mean you know or understand how to use it, and just because your caliber is capable of extended ranges it doesn’t mean your skills will support it! It’s easy to understand how this can happen when you can flip to about any hunting channel and watch with your own two eyes as a host takes an animal at a range that makes you go hmmm.
What you don’t see and what isn’t sold in a store are the necessary skills and understanding that it takes to make those types of shots in the field. All too often the sportsman relies on new technology and products rather than understanding and practice.
Very few hunters take the time to truly learn what their equipment does and how to properly use it to extend their maximum effective range. Those that decide to take the time necessary to school themselves in the use of their equipment and get out in the field to practice often find that it allows them to take shots beyond their old MER. For those of us who have learned and practiced what it takes to develop a consistent MER we have at our disposal a new tool to add to our hunting toolbox and when an opportunity presents itself that would have previously been beyond our skill set we can settle in for the shot knowing “ I got this”
Jordan@406
 

okielite

Banned
Jul 30, 2014
401
0
NW Nebraska
The reality is many hunting adventures that take place in America are tainted in one way or another in some people's eyes.

Taking unethical shots, shots beyond MER, shots from a vehicle or road, head shots, neck shots, Texas heart shots, shots at running animals, multiple shots at same animal, gut shots, multiple hunters shooting at herds of animals, etc.. are all common occurrences in todays hunting world. And that's not even getting into all the trespassing and other poaching activity.
 

In God We Trust

Very Active Member
Mar 10, 2011
805
0
Colorado
It isn't about MER. To most people it is about weather or not it is ethical to allow so much technology into hunting that we tip the scale too far into our favor. I could argue that a guy that flies a drone with a gun mounted on it and kills an animal with said drone has put in the time to become proficient with said drone so he is deserving of shooting an animal. I own long range custom rifles and am not taking sides. There have been too much B.S back and forth on this subject on this forum already. If you like it and can ethically do it then fine. If you don't like it or can't then fine. Lets not start another thread on this that brings out the worst in everyone on this forum. Also if you are with the company 406precision out of Montana you should make sure everyone is aware of that. That would mean you profit off of long range hunting.
 
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Ikeepitcold

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 22, 2011
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Agreed. A healthy discussion is welcome but this thread will be shut down if it get out of hand.
 

Team Kabob

Very Active Member
May 9, 2014
793
148
I've had a friend take his rifle into BP and put a new scope on; had it bore sighted, then went hunting. No joke. Missed a big buck and didn't know why. BP sighted it in right!


-)---> ¥
Got him!
 

jcharette08

New Member
Oct 14, 2012
20
0
N.M.
I think a lot of the issue is that some if these guys, who are incredibly talented behind a rifle can pull off 1000 yard shots on game. To some folks it seems like there is no challenge. Even though the skills to shoot MOA at 1000 are often beyond the reach of most shooters. The challenge shifts from being able to get close enough to game to make an ethical shot to being able to break the trigger perfectly and execute an incredibly long shot. I've seen plenty of guys gut shoot animals at 100 yds or even closer, so the ethics question is off the table I think. I agree with the OP and some of the replies after, if you don't prepare yourself for what you're trying to do, you'll most likely fail. Just like having your rifle bore sighted then trying to shoot an animal that isn't inside your "bore sight". Either way, I think it's just on a different end of the spectrum in the hunting game. While I agree with the OP, i don't think it's about MER, it's about preparedness. I'd wager a lot if these hunters think that just because they have a defensive edge canyon rifle automatically means they can shoot elk at 800 yards. This is just not the case. GOOD TOPIC!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
8,354
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Dolores, Colorado
I have shot quite a bit of Long Range BPCR up to 1000 yards and understand the difficulties of shooting long range. I realize that BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) is far different from the new equipment being developed and produced today. BUT the same disciplines apply to both. Knowing your equipment, your own skill level and what you are really trying to do are a must. I don't shoot BCPR anymore due to my own limitations (my old eyes).

The real question for each shooter to answer is: Does this fits into their own hunting ethics. Ideally they should examine this before spending a bunch of money on new equipment. Shooting at paper and steel is one thing, hunting is entirely different.
 

ColoradoV

Very Active Member
Oct 4, 2011
820
941
Most guys should not shoot long range.

Manufactures of these products will lie and tell you how easy it is to shoot long range.

With this sniper move there will be even more guys who want to or think they can shoot to 1000 by just turning a dial, big wigs who sell the products will tell them it is true, the John buys a 3000 dollar + set up and who cares another gun out the door and more wounded animals because of it.

Lots of guys cashing in on the long range craze and 406 I see pushing MER as more of a pr stunt to change "long range" to "MER" in a attempt to make the long range movement sound better than it is and in turn sell more stuff - well just is what it is IMO.

406 what do you do to ensure that the guys buying your products know their personnel MER? What do your peers in the industry do - nothing from what I have seen.. Do you do a MER test or do you just sell the gun and cash the check?

I also shoot regularly out over 1000 and have taken game at distanced over 800 yds all one shot kills due to more of the right atmospheric conditions than the gun - as to take a 800 yard shot the conditions around you are much more important than the over priced $3000 chuck of steel a hunter lookin to kill a animal at 1000yds buys...

Long range is what it is more guys screw it up than get it right and that trend will unfortunately IMO continue. Most manufactures of this LR gear could care less about ethics or any of it as long as the check cashes....
 

406precision

New Member
Oct 30, 2014
13
0
South West Montana
Just to be clear I am a co/owner of 406 Precision I thought that was clear by my user name and the way that I sign my posts.
However there was nothing in my post that was intended as a sales pitch or to retail anything.

I posted the article because I believe that each of us should be responsible for knowing and developing their own effective range with their chosen weapon not in an attempt to sell anything to anyone. The people who choose to come to our classes or attend many others are already are showing that they are wanting to and willing to take the steps to better understand their equipment and it's use in the field. The article was written from an educational stand point as I feel that it is up to each and everyone of us to promote education on the subject.

As one poster stated he had a friend that chose to go hunting with a bore sighted rifle...now maybe he did this out of laziness, but I am willing to bet that it had more to do with a lack of knowledge than anything.

As far as MER being a sales pitch we didn't invent the term, but we have chosen to use it as it better describes what we feel people should be thinking about and that is understanding and developing a maximum range that they are effective with their equipment...I don't care if this is 100 yards or 800 yards it is a very personal thing that is why each of us are responsible for it.
 

Timberstalker

Veteran member
Feb 1, 2012
2,242
6
Bend, Or
When checking the wind for direction due to bullet travel rather than if the animal can smell me is where I stop with a rifle. That's when it turns into shooting rather than hunting IMO. My theory is, if I'm going to shoot it I'm going to recover it, why not get as close as I can before I shoot it? Never have I went farther away from something I'm going to shoot because I can. I'm Old school, I still hunt with the same rifle I started hunting with over 30 years ago, the farthest shot I've ever made was 330. I could have got closer but I was well within my MER so I ended it there.

When bow hunting I know I could buy a better set up and extend my range, at least that's what I've been told. I'm certain I could shoot my bow better if I shot it more, even though it's not the best bow on the market. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if I shoot my bow better than some one with a top of the line bow that rarely shoots it. I have never shot a top of the line bow so I hunt within my abilities, 50 yards is max for me but I really like 20.

I rely way more on my hunting skills than I do my shooting skills. I don't care what it is, if you don't practice a lot with it your not getting everything out of it.
 

406precision

New Member
Oct 30, 2014
13
0
South West Montana
reply

Most guys should not shoot long range.
Lots of guys cashing in on the long range craze and 406 I see pushing MER as more of a pr stunt to change "long range" to "MER" in a attempt to make the long range movement sound better than it is and in turn sell more stuff - well just is what it is IMO.

406 what do you do to ensure that the guys buying your products know their personnel MER? What do your peers in the industry do - nothing from what I have seen.. Do you do a MER test or do you just sell the gun and cash the check?

I also shoot regularly out over 1000 and have taken game at distanced over 800 yds all one shot kills due to more of the right atmospheric conditions than the gun - as to take a 800 yard shot the conditions around you are much more important than the over priced $3000 chuck of steel a hunter lookin to kill a animal at 1000yds buys...

Long range is what it is more guys screw it up than get it right and that trend will unfortunately IMO continue. Most manufactures of this LR gear could care less about ethics or any of it as long as the check cashes....


This post is exactly what the article is talking about it's not about your equipment and people need to understand that just because you can afford to buy it doesn't mean that you should be using it in the field. Heck if I could go out and buy a helicopter today that dang sure doesn't make me a helicopter pilot!!!!

I'm not going to get into what we do to ensure proper use of our products because we don't retail equipment and I don't want this to become an advertisement of any kind just a thoughtful discussion on the topic. I couldn't agree more with your statement that manufactures have sold their goods by making it seem like it was so easy a caveman could do it and this is flat wrong. The article was about making a conscious choice to be aware of this and choosing to develop your skills not buy them out of a box.

However I will state that we are an education based business and we are dedicated to the education and promotion of knowing your equipment and how to use it in the field.

The most important thing to take away from these kind of discussions are the fact that none of us can control what others do, but each of us can help to educate those that are in need of it the importance of learning and understanding your equipment...the steps it takes to do so will in turn teach you a lot about yourself and your limitations!

Jordan@406
 

libidilatimmy

Veteran member
Oct 22, 2013
1,140
3
Wyoming
This post is exactly what the article is talking about it's not about your equipment and people need to understand that just because you can afford to buy it doesn't mean that you should be using it in the field.
I, as well as others I'm sure, am seeing more and more evidence of the "money can buy accuracy" mentality in the hunting world as is evident nearly every time I visit the range. What people don't understand is the thing that money cannot buy is precision, only practicing can develop this attribute. I see people all of the time that show up to the range with a $3K rifle setup that was obviously built for extended range shooting, set it on a lead sled, shoot 5-6 rounds at 200 yds, then pack up and leave. Now I'm sure that the rifle setup they shoot is far more capable than the person behind it in these instances and it's sort of our duty as sportsman to educate people on the subject of knowing your personal limitations and your equipment limitation.
 

Gr8bawana

Veteran member
Aug 14, 2014
2,670
604
Nevada
406 wants to change our view of long range hunting by calling it something else. The more palatable he can make it, the more profit for his company. Unfortunately his rifles don't include a boxfull of ethics
 

buckbull

Veteran member
Jun 20, 2011
2,167
1,354
MER should be part of the ethical equation for any shot at a game animal, but it shouldn't be the only one. Let's say Jack's MER is 800 yards, Luke's is 200 yards. Jack shoots an elk at 700 yards (100 yards below MER), Luke shoots an elk at 250 yards (50 yards above MER). Looking at the shooters shooting abilities alone, Jack with his 700 yard shot appears to be the more ethical shot. However, the other variable of the equation is Fair Chase.

Fair chase, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals. There is no mention of limiting shots to certain lengths. The question is, do these long range rigs provide a hunter with an "improper advantage" over the game animals they pursue? I would think if the animal cannot use its senses of sight, sound, and smell at a particular range, then the shot would not be considered Fair Chase.
 

406precision

New Member
Oct 30, 2014
13
0
South West Montana
406 wants to change our view of long range hunting by calling it something else. The more palatable he can make it, the more profit for his company. Unfortunately his rifles don't include a boxfull of ethics
That is pretty funny;)
I don't want to change your view of long range hunting I want you to be effective with your equipment in the field. I don't care of the distance!!!

And just because it has been mentioned a few times let me educate you to the fact that we do not build rifles at all.
We don't retail anything we have companies that we support and equipment that we have confidence in and recommend to fit clients needs..but we are not a retailer we offer education for those that are looking for it.

The rifle offered on our website is built by a company in Missoula Montana (I am omitting name because I don't want to be in violation of site rules and advertise for a non sponsor.)
It was designed to fill void in the market for shooters looking to get into a rifle for precision shooting at an affordable rate it will probably surprise you that we don't make a dime on the sales and that we don't want to. The goal was to find a company that had the same vision and overall morals that we did and have them produce a rifle that was actually attainable for working fellas.

The next time you would like to make assumptions about what we do or what we stand for feel free, but at least you have the info from the source this time.

I invite anyone here to contact me via PM for my phone number and I will gladly discuss what we do with you and where we stand on these issues.

I thought that was pretty clear in my original post...but it is evident that regardless of how we try to lead into these types of conversations some folks will only hear what they want and that's fine...it's this perception we are attempting to change.

Stay Classy
Jordan@406
 

jcharette08

New Member
Oct 14, 2012
20
0
N.M.
I'm gonna jump on 406's side. I honestly don't think he was trying to change anything to benefit him, only the animals. Maximum effective range implies, the longest range that bullet will do it's given task for a given job. Long range implies throwing lead at long distances, regardless of energy at termination. Even if you can shoot accurately at a mile, and you can put an accurately placed round on an elk at a mile, that bullet may not have the juice to kill the animal ethically. just my .02
 

406precision

New Member
Oct 30, 2014
13
0
South West Montana
I'm gonna jump on 406's side. I honestly don't think he was trying to change anything to benefit him, only the animals. Maximum effective range implies, the longest range that bullet will do it's given task for a given job. Long range implies throwing lead at long distances, regardless of energy at termination. Even if you can shoot accurately at a mile, and you can put an accurately placed round on an elk at a mile, that bullet may not have the juice to kill the animal ethically. just my .02
What we are talking about and what the original post was about is stepping back and taking a look at this mess that has been created by marketing equipment and tech as a substitute for a solid foundation and understanding of your equipment.

MER is about you...not me ... not your neighbor. Its about understanding and more importantly admitting what your skill set is and what it needs to be to be effective in the field. I make these posts from an educational stand point and solely want people to take the steps to know and use their equipment I can't see where this is a negative for the hunting community in any way shape or form.

I appreciate the comments and discussion

Jordan@406
 

Ikeepitcold

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Feb 22, 2011
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406 wants to change our view of long range hunting by calling it something else. The more palatable he can make it, the more profit for his company. Unfortunately his rifles don't include a boxfull of ethics
I disagree

The ethics debate will always be there that's for sure. But wouldn't you agree that education is better then some co selling rifles out of the box claiming you can hunt at 1000 yards? The fact of the matter is that Jordon is saying is to be educated on YOUR own MER doesn't matter the distance, 200-5000. So the ethical part is to the shooter to decide for himself what is ethical not someone else.

I'll take a proper educated Hunter, shooter then some guy that believes what he sees on TV any day.
 

Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
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The ethics debate will always be there that's for sure. But wouldn't you agree that education is better then some co selling rifles out of the box claiming you can hunt at 1000 yards? The fact of the matter is that Jordon is saying is to be educated on YOUR own MER doesn't matter the distance, 200-5000. So the ethical part is to the shooter to decide for himself what is ethical not someone else.

I'll take a proper educated Hunter, shooter then some guy that believes what he sees on TV any day.
That's why there is no substitute for time at the range. The more you shoot, the better you get, it's called practice. It's not just going out and verifying that your zero from last year is still good, it's shooting from different positions, different distances and different conditions. I try and treat my big game rifle skills like I do my competition skills, the more you shoot the better you get. I shoot between 750 and 1000 rounds a week in practice for my competitive shooting. I also take one of my big game rifles with me and try to shoot at least 100 rounds thru it too.