Leftover License Sale Suspended

Granby guy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2012
338
284
Grand Lake, Colorado
I got there at 5:00 and was the first person in line. I got through at exactly 9:00 and picked up a 3rd season buck tag tag that had been returned. I got lucky because there was only 1 tag. The guy behind me got his elk tag and when my friend was up the system crashed and he was third in line but when the system came back up the elk tags he was after were gone and there were 8 of them to start with. Putting in for a second choice won't work when they are all drawn as first choice tags, you have to try and pick them up after they have been returned. There are still a lot of good elk tags on the list but as expected the deer tags went quick.
 

Granby guy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2012
338
284
Grand Lake, Colorado
Why shouldn't the system favor residents on the first day? Those of you NR's that are complaining likely have a deer tag in their pocket in your home state, or at least are guaranteed one if they are inclined to do so. In Colorado we are NOT guaranteed a deer tag which is unfortunate but the price we have to pay for good management.
 

hoshour

Veteran member
It's different. Nonresidents outside the West don't have mule deer licenses available, which is what we're talking about, nor do they have antelope or, in most cases, elk. So nonresidents are not guaranteed a mule deer tag. They hunt whitetails in their home states but CO residents are pretty much guaranteed a whitetail tag since there are still plenty of whitetail tags still on the leftover list.

Second, resident licenses are $40 and the increases have nowhere near kept up with inflation over the past 20-30 years. Nearly all the burden of paying rising CPW costs has been put on nonresidents. When nonresidents have to pay roughly 10 times the cost of a resident tag, they ought to be on an equal ground when it comes to getting a leftover tag. They are already at a disadvantage because of the nonresident allocation caps that in most western states aside from CO and WY are 10% of tags or less, as low as 6% in NM and OR and virtually no tags for several species in CA and for mountain goats in NV.

How much favoritism does a resident need when they already pay 1/10 of nonresident prices but in most states get 90% or more of the tags?
 

JimP

Administrator
Mar 28, 2016
7,327
8,714
72
Gypsum, Co
I agree that NR get the shaft when it comes to a lot of tags not to mention the left over ones, but it is that way in any western state and not just Colorado. Wyoming next year put the shaft to NR by upping the tag fees and leaving the residents alone. It just happens to be the game us non residents have to play when we go outside of our resident state to hunt.

This is why I keep harping on the other choices on your application when you put in for the draw in April. If you don't want to chance out and get one of those tags then check the box that you want to put in for the leftover draw. Granted you still won't get much of a chance at the better units where someone has returned their tag but at least you can see where there are tags left and make a educated decision on where to try and draw a tag at.
 

ColoradoV

Very Active Member
Oct 4, 2011
820
941
Hos I have to ask in what unit in colorado elk, deer, or antelope are non residents only given 10% if licenses because from what I know these units do not exist....

NR in get in almost all cases 35%+ there are only a few select units that it is split 80 - 20%. There is not one unit in the state for deer/elk/antelope where NR are given less than 20% and in many cases it is above a 60 - 40 split when you take into account lo vouchers. Any NR who wants to hunt here can many times buy a tag over the counter up to the day before the season...

Or colorado is very fair to NR hunters pry too fair... In reality it is kinda weird how much the DOW dislikes resident hunters in Colorado.

Something to think about is that the system cant handle everyone from all over the world logging on for 2-3 tags in a unit.. CPW cant have 50,000 operators just to field your personal call and hold your hand to the checkout... Just not possible with the way the way any data system works. Now give or take 800 hard wired lines to a server will not crash any well designed system. Or the system would not crash if on line and over the phone sales were not allowed. So you guys calling in is what causes the system to crash plain and simple not the guys who took the day off to stand in line...

You boys choose to live where you do and have as much chance as anyone else to get to line and wait your turn but you dont want that.. If you have to get a leftover so bad travel to colorado as it is your choice to live where you do. I dont know of one single eastern state where myself as a NR can get a premium white tail or elk tag over the phone that was turned in along with land to hunt. So my chance is 0 or very very unfair to us colorado residents...

The system is not unfair to NR in colorado in fact it is more fair than any other state. Crying foul because you believed you did not get "your" tag does not make any sense to me and if it were up to me all returned tags would only be given out to kids 18 and under who reside in the county where the unit is. As it is kinda sad to watch resident kids wait for 4-5 years to hunt deer once in their back yard..
Or my daughters will get 1 deer hunt where we live before they turn 18... Now that is messed up!

Also riddle me this - how is it fair for you to sleep in your bed, eat a leisurely breakfast, drive to the office, make 1 phone call, and jump ahead of literally 100's of guys who spent up to all night or for me 5-6 hours in line? That would not be fair at all as you made no commitment to the tag just want one handed to you. Next thing would be the post on here I got at tag for xyz unit and know nothing about it who can tell me a basin a 200" buck lives in lol..
 
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hoshour

Veteran member
Colorado V - You need to read my post more carefully. Your tirade is full of misrepresentations about what I said.

I did not say Colorado only gave nonresidents 10% of tags. I said most states in the West aside from Colorado and Wyoming give 10% or less of their tags to nonresidents. Go back and read it. Also, I did not say the guys standing in line is what crashed the system. I don't know where you got that from.

You say you "don't know of one single eastern state where myself as a NR can get a premium white tail or elk tag over the phone that was turned in along with land to hunt." That's because most eastern states (not all, but the majority) don't have drawings for whitetail, don't have premium whitetail tags and don't have returned tags that are put up for sale. Only three eastern states I can think of off the top of my head even have a season on elk and they probably don't total 100 tags.

Also, I did not cry foul because I didn't get my tag. I didn't really expect to get a tag, although being locked out because the State set up a new procedure that was bound to crash, was annoying. I responded to Ganby Guys's post that said residents should get preference in returned tags. My response was that when nonresidents provide the majority of the license revenue for western Fish and Game Depts, we should not be put at a disadvantage to residents in every single way.

Even in a very generous state like Colorado where an average of 30% of deer tags might go to nonresidents (some units are less), nonresidents provide far more revenue to CPW than residents do. If 7 residents pay $34 each, that comes to $308 total. The 3 nonresidents pay $389 each = $1,167 total, not far short of 4X the total revenue from residents. In most western states it is far more lopsided. In short, it is nonresidents that provide the vast majority of financial support from tag sales for Fish and Game Departments.

As far as time invested in a tag, do you drive a 60-hour round trip to go hunting one time in Colorado, like I do? Even if you make several scouting trips, you probably have not invested as much time as me. Do you pay several hundreds of dollars in gas just to get to your hunt, not to mention meals and motels? Did you pay $389 on top of that for a deer tag? Are you limited to doing internet scouting and just what you can fit in a couple days before the hunt because you had to allot four days off work just for travel?

As far as choosing where I live, I have a business in NC and 12 grandkids. I love Colorado, but I'm not going to live 1,500-1,800 miles away just so I have a better chance at a deer tag.

Please have the courtesy to read what I wrote carefully enough so you don't misrepresent me several times.
 
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CrimsonArrow

Very Active Member
Feb 21, 2011
854
362
Minnesota
Hos I have to ask in what unit in colorado elk, deer, or antelope are non residents only given 10% if licenses because from what I know these units do not exist....

NR in get in almost all cases 35%+ there are only a few select units that it is split 80 - 20%. There is not one unit in the state for deer/elk/antelope where NR are given less than 20% and in many cases it is above a 60 - 40 split when you take into account lo vouchers. Any NR who wants to hunt here can many times buy a tag over the counter up to the day before the season...

Or colorado is very fair to NR hunters pry too fair... In reality it is kinda weird how much the DOW dislikes resident hunters in Colorado.

Something to think about is that the system cant handle everyone from all over the world logging on for 2-3 tags in a unit.. CPW cant have 50,000 operators just to field your personal call and hold your hand to the checkout... Just not possible with the way the way any data system works. Now give or take 800 hard wired lines to a server will not crash any well designed system. Or the system would not crash if on line and over the phone sales were not allowed. So you guys calling in is what causes the system to crash plain and simple not the guys who took the day off to stand in line...

You boys choose to live where you do and have as much chance as anyone else to get to line and wait your turn but you dont want that.. If you have to get a leftover so bad travel to colorado as it is your choice to live where you do. I dont know of one single eastern state where myself as a NR can get a premium white tail or elk tag over the phone that was turned in along with land to hunt. So my chance is 0 or very very unfair to us colorado residents...

The system is not unfair to NR in colorado in fact it is more fair than any other state. Crying foul because you believed you did not get "your" tag does not make any sense to me and if it were up to me all returned tags would only be given out to kids 18 and under who reside in the county where the unit is. As it is kinda sad to watch resident kids wait for 4-5 years to hunt deer once in their back yard..
Or my daughters will get 1 deer hunt where we live before they turn 18... Now that is messed up!

Also riddle me this - how is it fair for you to sleep in your bed, eat a leisurely breakfast, drive to the office, make 1 phone call, and jump ahead of literally 100's of guys who spent up to all night or for me 5-6 hours in line?
I would say that it's fair because anyone can use the phone in system with the same amount of effort. That can't be said of standing in line.
 

nv-hunter

Veteran member
Feb 28, 2011
1,587
1,321
Reno
Funny how it always comes down to poor non resident me i get fleeced and all i want to do is come shoot a deer. Most fish and game depts couldn't operate off tag revenue. Its funded by taxes paid mostly (sales and property) by residents.
Think pitman funds are even split based on what each state collected. So residents year round spending mkes up the bulk of that too. Don't know about how most nonresident apply for tags but as a resident i apply for everything in my state to the tune of $350 plus per year and its application fees that make the state cash.
 

gonhunting247

Veteran member
Jan 21, 2014
1,221
801
I apply for everything in NV, UT, OR and most in CO, AZ, AK, MT, ID, WY and I'm not griping, just broke :). i appreciate every opportunity to hunt, whether in OR or out-of-state.
 

nv-hunter

Veteran member
Feb 28, 2011
1,587
1,321
Reno
Ive got a few points banked in Oregon myself grew up there but with 3 to apply for here im broke too. I really enjoy the talk on this site till folks start beating up ranchers and resident vs nonresident threads. I think that as a group we should support each other thats why if someone thats been here awhile or seems to be honest/fits in and going to hang out awhile gets any help i can offer if ive hunted there before. I want to see people have the trip of a life if they get a tag.
 

gonhunting247

Veteran member
Jan 21, 2014
1,221
801
I have to say NV has been good to me! 4 bucks (2 really nice/2 nice but a little trigger happy:)) and 1 good antelope. Should get an elk tag sometime in the near future most likely anyway! Someday maybe I'll get a sheep tag too. It might be one of my only realistic opportunities to draw.
 
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Colorado Cowboy

Super Moderator
Jun 8, 2011
8,378
4,781
83
Dolores, Colorado
Most fish and game depts couldn't operate off tag revenue. Its funded by taxes paid mostly (sales and property) by residents.
Colorado Parks & Wildlife is an "enterprise" as defined by the state legislature. They get no money from the legislature. Their money comes directly from license/tag fees, court fines and grants from state lottery profits. They realize how much money nonresidents contribute, and IMHO that is why they are so generous in the NR tag allocations.

As far as returned tags, I believe they should stay in the pool they came from. A NR returned tag should be resold to a NR, same for resident returned tags, resold to a resident. More bookkeeping, but fair.
 

hoshour

Veteran member
Colorado Parks & Wildlife is an "enterprise" as defined by the state legislature. They get no money from the legislature. Their money comes directly from license/tag fees, court fines and grants from state lottery profits. They realize how much money nonresidents contribute, and IMHO that is why they are so generous in the NR tag allocations.

As far as returned tags, I believe they should stay in the pool they came from. A NR returned tag should be resold to a NR, same for resident returned tags, resold to a resident. More bookkeeping, but fair.
That is the way they do it with licenses for sheep, goat and moose and starting this year for licenses that took 5 points or more to draw. They ought to extend that to all returned tags.
 

Granby guy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2012
338
284
Grand Lake, Colorado
Let me try and explain what we residents face in the draw process.

If we want to hunt deer in a unit that takes one or more points then we have to try and calculate which units we can draw as a second choice (meaning that every NR who applied for the unit as a first choice will draw before we do) so we might have a chance of drawing every year while still building points to hunt our desired unit (and in some cases our home unit). These odds have fluctuated wildly over the last 5 years so we don't always draw the tags. This leaves us with the leftover draw which this year in particular held nothing of interest to me. The only option that was left for me was to try and acquire a returned tag so I could at least hunt within 2 hours of my house. It is frustrating knowing that I might not draw a tag every year in my home unit where I can walk 100' and be hunting deer. My son who will 12 next year has no better odds of drawing a tag in our home unit than anyone else and I feel that is a real problem that he might not be able to hunt deer in our home unit after school and on weekends. How is it fair when a NR can acquire a license in our home unit as a leftover when we might go without a tag?

Does anyone feel that a NR should have equal opportunity as residents in this situation?

All NR had an opportunity for a tag in the regular draw as well as the leftover draw and if they didn't draw they gained a point which increases their odds next year.

I accept the lower NR quotas when I apply out of state and feel that I will eventually draw a tag. In Wyoming I have max points for deer and elk but I don't feel that I should have preference over the residents there even though I am paying $130 a year for PP. and paying the special license fees when I apply.

Basically I just don't understand how Colorado's system doesn't greatly cater to the NR masses.
 

LCH

Very Active Member
Jun 28, 2015
774
246
Southern Indiana
And as far as the leftover whitetail tags go...good luck getting permission to hunt on the Eastern plains river corridors.
You can hunt your public land here, same as I can hunt my public land there. A lot of my land is just closer to you!

It is definitely a lot tougher for a NR, but as stated previously in this thread, you can't really complain too much when it's not your state. I think the systems should favor the residents to a certain extent.
 

LCH

Very Active Member
Jun 28, 2015
774
246
Southern Indiana
So I understand that the first come/first served leftover list includes returned tags that were not available in the leftover drawing. Why doesn't CPW delay the leftover drawing until a deadline has passed for all tags to be returned? Then the few primo tags would go in the leftover draw, greatly reducing the goat rodeo on leftover day.