How do Bulls attract Cows

[TwoBear]

Well HK, sorry you feel that way. For what it is worth I'm Alan Carter in Hamilton, MT. I own Two Bear Outfitters been guiding and hunting elk for 19 years now. I have a BSC in Resource Conservation from the U of Montana. All that information I just now posted means absolutely nothing. I'm no more or less credible than anybody else. Many poster on here are familiar with posters from other places, we agree, we disagree, but we keep it civil. I enjoy others thoughts and perspectives even if they are different then mine. While my ideas and thoughts may be different than others, that doesn't mean that they are myself are "better" in any capacity. Since you are worried about not really knowing anybody, I started by telling exactly who I am, so who are you?

 

[HuntinKid]

No one special, just a kid who likes to hunt. I'm not interested in making friends here or to promote myself - just trying to learn and be entertained (not necessarily in that order).

 

[trophyhill]

Trophyhill, lets back up just a bit. In general, cows are attracted to a specific bull via his precieved fitness to supply quality genetics. Large antlers indicate a bull is able to procure enough minerals and protein to sustain quality antler growth. It also indicates an abilty to preserve through winters, follow migration patterns, avoid predators etc. Antler is what is termed as a "luxury tissue". That is biologically antler growth is a non-priority tissue. A bull must first be able to supply his bodies priority needs, so large antlers indicate over all fitness. Bugles, in general, indicate to cows that a bull may or may not be worth having a look at. Most herd bulls bugle a great deal to "imprint" thier bugles on their cows. However, large antlers and robust bugles alone do not dictate herd bull status, the willingness and abilty to defend the harem against competitor bulls is imperative. Bulls defend the harem in two ways, either by physically pushing cows away from competition, or by fighting rival bulls off physically or with threats. Cows through the selection process want to breed with the best representive of the species they can. This is where Elknuts theory of cow call aways comes in.

thats a great response and in line with what i've read and most elk experts (and i'm certainly no expert) would agree with that. so we all know that "all encounters aren't created equal" (coined by a great elk killer) so with your explanation of that process in mind, PART 2 of the OP, what are some of the things you've done to take advantage of these types of elk habits/encounters to increase your odds and put the bull(s) on the ground when "the moment of truth" arrives?

 

[TwoBear]

In a nut shell Tropyhill, I am what I would described as a pressure caller when waranted. I believe successful calling is primarily a function of distance. I want to press the bull to force him to defend his harem, getting in close and challenging his right to his harem, and pressing him to deal with me. Elknut has a slightly different variation. He believes in calling the cows away to force the bull to deal with you or abandon the herd. I suppose, I may have in the past inadvertantly called cows or at least commanded their attention, forcing the bull into action. If done from a distance, I believe the bull is more inclined to herd up and go, as stated, there is more than one way to defend the herd, and leaving can be a viable option. As always, it depends on the situation and your hunting areas.

When I cow call I typically lead with a lost cow call but also knowing I am on an intercept course with the herd. It is very helpful to know your area well in these circumstances. The benefit of having a good idea where they heading and where the want to go to get there cannot be understated. I try, as best I can, to approach and an angle switching over to more excited calls increasing pitch and tempo as we close the distance. I am trying in this circumstance to make at easy as possible for the bull to come in and pick me up. I also don't want to be in front of him and get busted by his cows, hence the angled approach. I want him to just swing over and pick me up as he is heading to his bedding/feeding area. In this circumstance, I feel cow calling is the better option. As usual again, a lot of pieces and parts have to come together for this to work, and the wind is usaully the demon in this scenerio.

 

[trophyhill]

In a nut shell Tropyhill, I am what I would described as a pressure caller when waranted. I believe successful calling is primarily a function of distance. I want to press the bull to force him to defend his harem, getting in close and challenging his right to his harem, and pressing him to deal with me. Elknut has a slightly different variation. He believes in calling the cows away to force the bull to deal with you or abandon the herd. I suppose, I may have in the past inadvertantly called cows or at least commanded their attention, forcing the bull into action. If done from a distance, I believe the bull is more inclined to herd up and go, as stated, there is more than one way to defend the herd, and leaving can be a viable option. As always, it depends on the situation and your hunting areas.

When I cow call I typically lead with a lost cow call but also knowing I am on an intercept course with the herd. It is very helpful to know your area well in these circumstances. The benefit of having a good idea where they heading and where the want to go to get there cannot be understated. I try, as best I can, to approach and an angle switching over to more excited calls increasing pitch and tempo as we close the distance. I am trying in this circumstance to make at easy as possible for the bull to come in and pick me up. I also don't want to be in front of him and get busted by his cows, hence the angled approach. I want him to just swing over and pick me up as he is heading to his bedding/feeding area. In this circumstance, I feel cow calling is the better option. As usual again, a lot of pieces and parts have to come together for this to work, and the wind is usaully the demon in this scenerio.

i like the concept of questioning "the bulls manhood" to keep his cows. its close and exciting. last season i really got aggresive that last week of the CO hunt and though i blew a couple golden opportunities because of my inexperience and indecisiveness at "The Moment of Truth" but learned that getting aggresive can be the ticket when in close. and too "demanding attention" gets the point across when talking cow sounds. when a bull is with cows i would think that distance is key here in either tactic.

 

[trophyhill]

anyone else?

 

[trophyhill]

my response to HK on the post that somehow disappeared.

LOL cmon man is that the best you got? you may find it on bowsite or monster muleys or hunting.net or Bowcountry or 3dshoots.com and a few other sites if you look hard enough. the reason i post some threads on more than one forum is to solicit thought and input from anyone generous enough to offer input. thats it. i figure the more input i can get from as many elk killers that will respond not only teaches me but it also helps others like me that have limited experience and eager to learn. ArcheryTalk isn't the only place that great elk killers frequent. theres no "Magic Bullet" conspiracy to purposely get ElkNut to respond in any other way than what he knows or has experienced and is gracious enough to share. if his advice offends you i really don't know what to tell you but his advice is always welcome to me and those like me that have benefited from it in the form of an elk in the freezer.

if you think about it and read many of my threads, if you want to talk about twisty turny, some topics take a natural progression into other areas. and i don't mind this. when hunting elk as you probably know, "all encounters, elk or situations are not created equal" so what may be sticking out in one persons mind because of an experience may be a 180 from what is on someone elses mind because a similar situation took a different twist. not only can elk hunting and its topics be twisty turny, but some topics reside on a slippery slope that can bring out many different responses. its unfortunate when these threads take the kind of twist that you have injected here.

if you wanted to know my thoughts on ElkNut's input all you had to do is ask. i have great respect for him as a man and as a teacher and place much value on his input. i killed my first elk (cow) in my second season using a tactic right out of the PlayBook regarding "hunting elk in a drizzling rain" and killed another cow elk this past season using cow sounds as described in the PlayBook. i had a Herd Bull raking and thrashing a tree 70 yards away but out of site 10 minutes before dark and elected not to look a gift horse in the mouth and was happy to take the cow. and get this, you'll really like this, after i killed that cow i ran up to CO and was a Herd Bull taking 2 steps away from killing a giant CO bull with bulls screaming all around me using an aggresive tactic straight out of the PlayBook and confirmed to work by other great elk killers and they know who they are.

these tactics can lead a bull to water but its up to the hunter to take that drink. so looking at it from a percentage standpoint, thats 2 elk in 3 years. a 66% success rate. 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the elk from year to year and my goal is to be in that 10% year in year out. so all this being said, whether you agree with his advice or not, the results from the advice given speak volumes and shouldn't be taken lightly. it's ok to question what someone else tells you. thats human nature. i do it all the time when not satisfied with the answer or need more of an explanation to help me understand something, but lets stop with the attacks and assumptions regarding someone elses motives for wanting info or the person giving it. after all, you don't know me or what makes me tic or what motivates me. but keep your eye on the cover of EHJ magazine in the next year or 2 and you may just find out

 

[HuntinKid]

I tried editing it - I made a typo, but accidentally deleted it instead. Que cera.

I don't know this "ElkNut" person is, but find it curious the level of deference you all are giving him when I am less than impressed by the quality or breadth of his alleged knowledge - at least with regard to cow elk traveling far distances during the rut. If you all don't like my tone - then you might want to consult with ElkNut and ask him to please tone down his own rhetoric and treat others with the respect you all expect to be afforded to him. The only twist I injected was to point out that he was wrong after he incorrectly tried to put Mr. Roe in his place - GASP! I didn't know - until now - that we cannot challenge the "enlightened one." I guess, now I know. You and your ilk have made it abundantly clear that unless you worship at the church of ElkNut, your commentary is not welcome. Well, too bad. If I have enough knowledge on a topic and see that ElkNut is wrong (or Mr. Roe, or anyone of the rest of you), again, I will point it out. Again.

 

[trophyhill]

I tried editing it - I made a typo, but accidentally deleted it instead. Que cera.

I don't know this "ElkNut" person is, but find it curious the level of deference you all are giving him when I am less than impressed by the quality or breadth of his alleged knowledge - at least with regard to cow elk traveling far distances during the rut. If you all don't like my tone - then you might want to consult with ElkNut and ask him to please tone down his own rhetoric and treat others with the respect you all expect to be afforded to him. The only twist I injected was to point out that he was wrong after he incorrectly tried to put Mr. Roe in his place - GASP! I didn't know - until now - that we cannot challenge the "enlightened one." I guess, now I know. You and your ilk have made it abundantly clear that unless you worship at the church of ElkNut, your commentary is not welcome. Well, too bad. If I have enough knowledge on a topic and see that ElkNut is wrong (or Mr. Roe, or anyone of the rest of you), again, I will point it out. Again.

in all due respect you questioned my motive for posting the same topic on 2 different forums and made a couple assumptions about "me" and my reasons for posting, not knowing me from Adam, hence my response to you. i'm sure Chris and Paul will talk and get things ironed out being the consumate professionals that they are. i'm certainly not going to apologize to you for starting a thread on 2 different forums based on your assumptions about the "likes of me" and my desire to seek useful information to be used when "the moment of truth" arrives.

so now that we've cleared the air on that matter lets get back on topic. can you answer part 2 of the OP?

 

[mdbrown]

wow,
i think Chris and especally huntnkid need to relax
i am no expert on elk , elk habits or what elk are thinking. thats best left to the experts. what i am fairly decent at is killing elk. not bragging, because i could care less what anyone thinks about me. i rarely post any pictures or even post on these sites. ive hunted/killed elk all bulls public land diy in oregon, idaho, wyoming , nevada (hopefully this year in arizona} total of 24 bulls . thats a bull every year since 1988, again not bragging, {go back to previous coment on not caring what others think} i also live in elk habitat, meaning we see and study elk from the house. i also feel like i havent even scratched the surface on learning about elk, i read , study and think about elk all year. i dont think its right to say anyone is wrong or right about elk they never seem to do the same predictable things all of the time {like women}


i also think elknut nailed it when he said nothing is written in stone. the comments he and 2bears made are more like i have seen in the elk woods. i also like there humble attitude tward elk that they have. i am not going to argue with chris because i dont like the way his answers were. i looked on his website and saw only 7 bulls with him holding them but since he is a "certified wildlife bioligist" he must know exactly how elk think every time {maybe we should seek his advise on women also, ha ha } huntinkid where are your elk credentials. 2 bears listed his, i listed mine ,

 

[TwoBear]

I tried editing it - I made a typo, but accidentally deleted it instead. Que cera.

I don't know this "ElkNut" person is, but find it curious the level of deference you all are giving him when I am less than impressed by the quality or breadth of his alleged knowledge - at least with regard to cow elk traveling far distances during the rut. If you all don't like my tone - then you might want to consult with ElkNut and ask him to please tone down his own rhetoric and treat others with the respect you all expect to be afforded to him. The only twist I injected was to point out that he was wrong after he incorrectly tried to put Mr. Roe in his place - GASP! I didn't know - until now - that we cannot challenge the "enlightened one." I guess, now I know. You and your ilk have made it abundantly clear that unless you worship at the church of ElkNut, your commentary is not welcome. Well, too bad. If I have enough knowledge on a topic and see that ElkNut is wrong (or Mr. Roe, or anyone of the rest of you), again, I will point it out. Again.

I'm a little confused about the Roe/Elknut argument here? I thought Roe was talking about bull/cow movements during the rut phase of the breeding cycle, and Elknut was talking about the early season movement patterns of bulls?

 

[HuntinKid]

But as a rule, the bulls will come looking for the cows where ever that may be. The difference here is that from a norms standpoint it is not common for cows to travel miles looking for the bulls in times of breeding. This doesn't mean to imply that it will never happen but it is more unusual when it does.

They both - from what I gathered - generally were talking about rut movements. ElkNut just made this assertion that - while I don't know a whole lot - do know isn't accurate.

 

[ElkNut1]

No hard feelings guys, I appreciate all the thoughts as I'm an open minded individual, I'm not a know it all & I will never know it all! (grin) Like anything else facts are good to have & sometimes opinions are coupled with them. I was not trying to B/S anyone but merely sharing my opinion or point of view. If this differs with others views I'd love to hear yours in a respectful manner! This subject posted by Trophyhill is one that has inspired some serious research on my part! I spent many hours scouring studies done as close to this subject as possible! That being, do the "Cows go to the Bulls or do the Bulls head over to the cows in pre-rut times" I'm not questioning whether the cows select bulls or the bulls select cows once in each others hearing distance or presence! This seems to be where the discrepancy is! We all want to be as accurate as possible so as not to mislead any.

I've not done any serious research on this subject alone as I really hadn't applied much attention to it over the years. But, in all the info along with personal findings in 30 years of elk hunting/research & all I could dig up on the matter, there is no cut & dry as to what gender does what. If anyone has a study done that sways this one way or another it would be great if you could share it here? In all info I found it appears it's a two way street, meaning both genders take a physical action as hormones & testosterone levels rise leading to pre-rut times & into peak rut times. In other words all action is not done by one gender & one gender only. All my findings that I was thinking in my mind when I wrote that the Bulls come towards the cows at this time seems to be in line for the most part, there are always extenuating circumstances! But the norm or trend is the bulls make their way towards the cows or areas they feel the cows should be. They may not physically stand right amongst them but could announce their presence from a distance that cows can hear them as they bugle to represent who they are, the more mature sounding bulls are the ones the cows desire & yes can choose to be with them. No problem there! (grin) So no question that Cows do select the bull they want to be with, no doubt these are the stronger dominant bulls where cows can feel secure & taken care of, these bulls represent strength & protection from the various satellites that can pester them to no end as they near estrus.

However, there are situations where younger less dominant bulls are residing in a herd bull status only to be over thrown by a bigger more mature bull & take over the harem of cows as they near estrus! In cases as this who's selecting who? Obviously the new bull is now the one of strength & dominance & he will do his best to maintain the herd through course bugling & instilling a confidence of protection within the cows, of course any cow can leave at anytime but it's more rare than common place! Too, you have satellites that can hook out or steal a cow or two in the blink of an eye from a present herd, once again who's choosing who? As I mentioned it's not just cut & dry in the elkwoods during the rut phases!

You also have satellites/subordinates that will cover miles in search of herds with hot cows, these stragglers can go from group to group until satisfied, as we all have seen this happen over the years it becomes prevalent that these bulls are the ones doing the searching for cows! There are other times where you have dominant type bulls with no cows & they are forever on the prowl looking for cows in or nearing estrus within already established herds. This doesn't mean that cows cannot do the same but it does show there is no certainty that it's one group only that does the searching! Just so it's clear, this is what I was referring too, I meant no disrespect to anyone!

ElkNut1

 

[MichMan]

Dang!!!! And me without my popcorn!!! My buddies and I have been watching this on AT too!

After the initial posts by Elknut and Roe this has gotten a bit stupid! But I guess if you spend time surfing the chat forums you can see some of where HuntnKid comes from. On a lot of hunting forums it is like the Elknut knitting circle. No offense, but it is the same people all of the time. It is. Look at this thread. AT too. My guys and I always joke about what topic the circle is going to come up with next. But HuntnKid, relax man! It is just a forum.

FWIW Elknut I thought your response to Roe's post was a bit condescending too. The question was asked, you answered, he answered, leave it.

 

[TwoBear]

Chris as usual brings up some good points! But just so no one is confused, Bulls come down to or over their way to the cows! In other words these bachelor groups are generally separated from the cow groups. It is very common to find these bulls much higher in elevation where applies, during the Summer months. These bulls will at their own pace will make their way down to these cow groups, the cows do not go & seek out the bulls until the bulls come into their areas I believe what Chris is saying is that the cows will choose the bull they allow to breed them. In many cases more than one bull will breed a cow in the 12-16 hours she is in heat or estrus.

Of course once these herd bulls establish themselves with a group no matter the size of these groups they can move anywhere even back to where the bulls came from if hunting pressure of sorts forces them to do so! The cows inherently will start seeking out their breeding grounds, this is generally in the areas they were born in. This is especially notable in non-hunting areas where elk are free to roam naturally without intrusion. Too, in these areas you will see these cow groups stay right in those vicinities they've been in all Summer as Bulls start to show on the scene that were not there previous to pre-rut!

Again, very good info related by all.

ElkNut1

HK, I was referring to the first paragraph of elknuts statement. It certainly appears to me that he is discussing preliminary bull movement as the breeding season approaches, and I concur with his observations. I thought Chris was talking about actual breeding ground movement. I think Chris is also accurate in not all areas have the traditional high country/ lower elevation rut migration dynamic. I also thought Chris articulated that, and also articulated that indeed, bulls do come down in certain areas. Hence my confusion over this alleged "controversy".

 

[3rd Lung]

Good thread?

Sounds like somebody needs to relax.

 

[foambeetle]

But I guess if you spend time surfing the chat forums you can see some of where HuntnKid comes from. On a lot of hunting forums it is like the Elknut knitting circle. No offense, but it is the same people all of the time. It is. Look at this thread. AT too. My guys and I always joke about what topic the circle is going to come up with next. . . . FWIW Elknut I thought your response to Roe's post was a bit condescending too. The question was asked, you answered, he answered, leave it.

ditto - very well put.

I didn't see it so much as an argument about the information, or an issue of "right and wrong," but more about being topical. It does not require "elk credentials" to see this, just basic reading comprehension and analysis. Roe was on topic. ElkNut strayed from it and then took a condescending tone. He may not have meant disrespect, but it definitely came across as such.

 

[ElkNut1]

Guys, let's be reasonable here! I don't know you guys & you don't know me so it's very unfair to say I was taking on any sort of abusive tones, this is the internet & it's easy to get an impression as the reader himself implies how he wants to read it with emphasis on certain parts. I am one who does not beat around the bush to pacify ones, I will be up-front & tell it like it is. Everyone has a reputation, this is built up over a period of time, ones come to understand without a doubt what type of individual you are & your character. I've now been on various hunting sites for the last 10 years & many know me. What is my reputation? Am I a trouble maker & one who looks for confrontations? I can easily answer that & tell you no, I learned way back when that confrontations will get you nowhere & should be avoided! If in fact this is my reputation then why would I start now all of sudden & be intentionally abusive when I've not done this in 10 years! My tract record shows that's not me, so please give me the benefit of the doubt if you know me, if you don't know me then please don't make unfounded accusations.

The reasons many are attracted to what I write is because I have shared many thoughts, methods & techniques on elk hunting freely over the years, many have benefited from this info & show their appreciation & I truly appreciate that & it motivates me to continue doing so! I love helping others when I can & I too learn from others thoughts as well. Over the years we've had over a thousand hunters share their elk hunting success with us that they attribute to info they took to heart shared by our research & instruction. These hunters in turn share their success with their friends & families as they are excited about actual info that has improved their elk hunting skills. This type of info & excitement is contagious therefore equates into countless individuals who enjoy reading any additional info we may share. We are not perfect & we too make the needed adjustments in thought & share any clarification so we are all as accurate as possible in our sound selection or methods of use on our various elk hunts! This is why you see on the various Sites that there is a sort of following or recommendation. I thought I would clarify this for those who didn't know why others were interested in our findings & thoughts!

ElkNut1

 

[trophyhill]

this is what i found in relation to the OP according to Geist and Clutton-Brock. i've herd of Geist but not Clutton-Brock.

an elk breeding system is based on male advertisement (vocalizations, antler size and body size), and (female choice) choosing the bull with the afformentioned qualities if available thereby choosing the bull that presumabley has the best gene pool. "The bull must be able to seek out females and maximize his advertising"